What is "Christian dogma"? Whether or not the reality of God is obvious or not?Originally Posted by Fenris
Grand Master
What is "Christian dogma"? Whether or not the reality of God is obvious or not?
Deadpan Snarker
No, I do not....
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Deadpan Snarker
No, whether God factors in whether it's "obvious" or not.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Grand Master
Not sure how that is a Christian thing.
If we stipulate that there is a God and He fundamentally wants fellowship with human beings, whether or not His reality is obvious to one person and not obvious to another seems to be a key question for any person, Christian or not.
Deadpan Snarker
Because, if I understand Christianity correctly, either you accept Jesus's sacrifice or you don't. And that determines your fate. There does not appear to be any mitigating factors, like the "obviouness" of it or whatever.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Grand Master
Well, that's big in the context of the discussion.
I believe that He does. I also believe that He judges based on how people respond to that revelation in their hearts and that we can't possible make a declaration about His standards for administering that judgement to people who grew up with virtually EVERY disadvantage in accepting the Christian Gospel.
Deadpan Snarker
This is not...what's the word I'm looking for...orthodox Christian dogma.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Grand Master
The fundamental basis of Christianity is that Eternal Life is found only in Christ. This is true.
Speaking from the Christian perspective:
First off, the only way a person can accept this as Truth is if they respond to the urging of the Holy Spirit. A person can't just "decide" to place his faith in Christ. For the person who grew up in a Christian household, this urging of the Holy Spirit is more "obviously" the call to receive Christ. For the person who grew up in the Muslim household, I can't possibly imagine how this is "obviously" the call to receive Christ. Therefore, I would submit that God judges, in His own fashion, how well they respond to His Spirit.
Deadpan Snarker
Although that certainly seems fair, it is not Christian dogma. I'll leave it to the Christians here to quote the pertinent biblical verses.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Grand Master
Heck, I could be wrong. I base that opinion on what I deem as just common sense. There are Christians in Muslim countries, though, so there are those who have publically denounced their former Faith and decided to follow Christ...in the midst of terrible persecution.
Ultimately, however, I do believe that God give everybody an opportunity to know Him and that, when all is said and done, we will not have any objections to whether or not it was "fair" or not. We'll all see the justice in His decision in the end.
Deadpan Snarker
Well, you're entitled to do that. It's up to Christians to define what Christian beliefs are. I can only comment on what I am told.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Grand Master
Perhaps, but I think you will find that many Christians support the idea that just because a person doesn't stand up and proclaim the ACTUAL name of Christ, we must at least look at their circumstances. Eyelog even quoted some verses from Corinthians to make this argument about the "Aborigine" who is a follower of Christ but doesn't know His Name.
Deadpan Snarker
Again, I really think most Christians will disagree with that...
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
Does Jesus like me?
Not really....
In their mind that is exactly what it is.... BUT not in Gods eyes.... He said He called heaven and earth together as a witness against mankind that He had indeed set life and death before them.... And that is just plain the truth.... And that is the basis for my interpretation of Romans 1.... Gods loving hand is everywhere.... And men choose to attribute it to something else.... Anything else.... In order to shield themselves from the knowledge of God.... And as I stated the things people do to get away from God are not against their will.... Willful means to do something on purpose.... Looking for any other reason for the existence of nature even is not something that goes against a persons will.... They are doing it on purpose whether they are doing it out of ignorance or knowingly.... Some think they are only judging the veracity of a book.... And so they reject it if it doesn't convince them.... But they are rejecting much more than they know they are.... But they are still doing it on purpose....
No.... That is a KNOWING willful rejection of God.... Which is worse than merely rejecting Him because you don't have the benefit of your own eyes to help you make the decision.... Which is rejecting out of ignorance.... Both are decisions a person makes on purpose.... Because you cannot make an accidental decision.... That doesn't make logical sense....
This is a reason for the deliberate rejecting of a book and thus its Author.... Regardless of the reason this person did indeed willfully reject God....
Take Adam for instance.... His sin is said to be worse than Eves.... She was deceived.... Which is to say she didn't understand the ramifications of her decision to taste the fruit.... She still used her will in order to reject Gods command not to eat that fruit.... Adam on the other hand was not deceived.... He knew what the serpent was doing.... He knew he was about to do something that went against Gods command.... He did it anyways.... That is knowingly rejecting God.... And willfully rejecting Him....
Willful rejection of God can happen with or without the convincing a person needs.... It isn't a matter of the knowledge a person has.... It is a matter of their free will.... A person can do stupid things on purpose too....
My Church....
TO ALL MEN EVERYWHERE: Seek Justice.... Love Mercy.... Walk Humbly With Your God.... Let the watchers become warriors! Let the men of God arise!
TO ALL LADIES EVERYWHERE: There could never be a more beautiful you.... Defy the lies and disguises and hoops they make you jump through.... You were made to fill a purpose that only you could do....
My Facebook page....
Deadpan Snarker
When we all stand before the True Judge at the end, you want someone like me as your defense lawyer. Mary here can be the prosecutor.
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, and declare it on the islands from afar, and say, "He Who scattered Israel will gather them together and watch them as a shepherd his flock."
Jeremiah 31:9
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