What is the main reason some DO NOT submit to God?

[MaryFreeman]

Everyone's inner voice does not tell them the same thing.

Pity....

So a kid who grew up in the jungle and a kid who grew up in a religious house in America have the same conscience? Obviously not.

Of course they do.... It is their UNDERSTANDING that is not the same....

Rom 1:20-21 LITV For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, both His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse. (21) Because knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful. But they became vain in their reasonings, and their undiscerning heart was darkened.

Clearly we were all born with the capacity to see the Creator through the created.... And every human being on the planet from the time it was created was given the opportunity to know SOMETHING about God from what was around them.... What happens when they don't? They become vain in their reasonings (which reminds me of most secular scientists) and their hearts are darkened.... Somehow or another (and I don't know how.... Cuz I ain't God) they become unable to see it as time passes and the more they refuse to see it....

I don't see 13 year olds in nearly as innocent a light as you do.... And that is quite obvious.... But I do concur with you that folks are indeed judged by what they know.... I just do not agree about what they know....

[Fenris]

Of course they do....

Read the story about the kid in the gulag.

[MaryFreeman]

Read the story about the kid in the gulag.

No...............................................

[Fenris]

No...............................................

If you refuse to examine evidence because it might conflict with your preconceived ideas on a subject, then we're done with the discussion.

Maybe someone else wants to read it and tie it in to our present discussion.

[MaryFreeman]

If you refuse to examine evidence because it might conflict with your preconceived ideas on a subject, then we're done with the discussion.

Maybe someone else wants to read it and tie it in to our present discussion.

I refuse to read it because it hurts....

I know a fraction of a fraction of what happened to your people in those gulags.... And for a heart like mine.... That is too much....

What of Gods creation can you see in a gulag Fenris? The point is that CREATION.... Nature.... Just as Paul states in Romans.... Testifies to the entire world that there is a God in heaven.... I like to think that a child denied even that would be granted mercy from the God I serve....

[Fenris]

I refuse to read it because it hurts....

It also disproves your point that "everyone knows the same thing".

What of Gods creation can you see in a gulag Fenris?

I don't pretend to understand everything that God does. This is the challenge for the believer.

But God is fair, as you point out. So I don't think He expects a kid who grew up in the gulag to know the same thing as a kid who went to church every sunday.

[MaryFreeman]

It also disproves your point that "everyone knows the same thing".

My point is not that everyone knows the same thing.... Merely that God gives everyone the same opportunity to know Him through His creation....

I don't pretend to understand everything that God does. This is the challenge for the believer.

The challenge for the believer is to understand everything God does? Why?

But God is fair, as you point out. So I don't think He expects a kid who grew up in the gulag to know the same thing as a kid who went to church every sunday.

I thought we started out with a kid in the jungle....

Regardless.... I am pretty sure God sees the kid in the gulag and knows his heart.... Which is my position.... To the best of my ability I believe that everyone (barring extreme circumstances such as gulags) has the opportunity through the natural creation around them to know that there is a God.... The difference in Romans 1 is between those who know and chase after God.... And those who know and DON'T....

[BrianW]

I'm a religious man and I love to read science. I don't think the connection is obvious or apparent at all.

OK. So we disagree.

Because they both say that one is judged by what one knows.

But they are speaking of knowings God's -will or commandments/laws- correct?

[Eyelog]

many scientists who know the universe best see it otherwise. This doesn't make them bad people or defiant of God's rule. They simply see the universe as a place of natural laws and not a creation of God.


Who "knew God"? Again, if one is speaking of believers that is one thing, but this verse can't possibly be applied to all humans who ever lived. Understanding it that way goes opposite to Amos 3:2. Or Luke 12:48, if you prefer the NT.

The darkened mind is not likely to see the truth of the creation in the testimony of 'nature,' unless they are not already indoctrinated into Naturalism.

Also, they may be already indoctrinated into an alternative religion or other ideology by the time they contemplate the prime mover. Some may be too stupid to ever think about it.

This is why teachers are judged more harshly than those who do not deign to share their unbiblical views with others.

However, to suggest that 'seeing it differently' does not make them "bad people or defiant of God's rule" is only true because of what obviously precedes 'how they see it.' What precedes their point of view is their world view, their Zeitgeist, if one prefers German terms which led to the Holocaust. ("Holocaust", incidentally, is a word of Greek origin meaning "sacrifice by fire.")

One's worldview is, again, what make people "bad or defiant of God's rule." And that worldview is based on the perspective they have gained by mentally trafficing with worldly wisdom.

Maybe they never had a chance of avoiding their pernicious Zeitgeist, but that fact would never excuse their participation, for instance, in a holocaust, would it?

If you have an evil point of view, you are still morally culpable, regardless of its origin. -- more so, if you chose your evil Zeitgeist in the face of considering knowledge ofthe Truth.

So, the reason people don't come to the Truth is rooted in the sin nature, the darkened mind. Not only is their conceptual framework of understanding off base, but they are severly disinclined to change it to line up with the truth of Scripture. Factors going into this disinclination are the sorts of things listed by others in this thread:

1. Their prejudice against the things of God
2. Their unbelief in Him and/or His ways and things He's done
3. Their desire to continue in sin
4. Their pride and belief in their own goodness
5. Etc., etc., etc.

All such things are extremely powerful taken one at a time, but all are intertiwined, and as a group create a veritable fortress against submission to the living God.

So, if an unregenerate person has become awakened to Christ, that is a miracle beyond their own doing. And on top of it, God hardens the heart of who He wants to, and softens that of who He wants to. Only our prayers and proclamation of the Word, along with the witness of our life, allow us to help anyone see the light. But, ultimately, it is God's sovereign will which determines who will get saved.

For you to suggest, however, that failing to recognize the truth is not culpable is really not supported in Scripture. Paul addresses this frontally in Romans 9 and throughout Romans, including in Romans 1.

At the end of the day, all have sinned and fallen short. Original sin is papered over with many willful sins by the time we are conscious in our youth. Consequently, one must take the OP's question as an expression of astonishment that can only be felt by one who can see the truth very plainly at this point. Indeed, no doubt he speaks of those who seem to be so very close to giving their life over to Him, who nevertheless never seem to get the job done.

He seems to be saying, why do so many fail to come, though grace has granted them the info, the heads up and even the conviction of 'sin, righteousness and judgment to come'. I see it more as a lament than a philosophical or theologicl question. But I think it is also a question about what we can do to help.

I believe God has set it up to where we must pray for the lost, proclaim the truth and witness our own life, and sometimes engage in various forms of what is sadly named 'apologetics,' in light of its contemporary connotations. All I can say is that if we would do a lot more of the first three things, ourselves having grown immensely in the things of God first, the more likely apologetics will have any kind of a positive effect. But most apologetics tries to grapple with worldly wisdom, when it is clear that absent enlightenment by the Spirit, no one is converted via being shown their own thinking is absurd, weak, or even demonstrably wrong.

I, myself, have used the method of heaping abuse on those who refuse to acknowledge the absurdity, weakness and falsity of their own views, hoping to make the person despair of their pride invested in foolishness. But that seems to work mostly with regenerate types only. Once in a while, however, the Lord uses such to help the lost.

Did Jesus do that?

He certainly called the Pharisees names and reduced their ideas to nonsense in the light of Scripture, time and again. Who were they, but lost souls? And what does He have to say to the churches in Revelation 2-3? Believers are berated as well, ... of course.

[Fenris]

My point is not that everyone knows the same thing....

Great, that's what I've been saying all along.

The challenge for the believer is to understand everything God does?

The challenge for the believer is to accept that God does things that are beyond human comprehension.

I thought we started out with a kid in the jungle....

To the best of my ability I believe that everyone (barring extreme circumstances such as gulags)

So it's not really "everyone", is it.

The difference in Romans 1 is between those who know and chase after God.... And those who know and DON'T...

You're assuming to know what other people think here.

[Fenris]

But they are speaking of knowings God's -will or commandments/laws- correct?

Of knowing the bible, presumably.

[Fenris]

The darkened mind is not likely to see the truth of the creation in the testimony of 'nature,' unless they are not already indoctrinated into Naturalism.

The fact that you think people can be 'indoctrinated' proves my point.

Some may be too stupid to ever think about it.

Yes, anyone who comes to different conclusions from you is 'stupid'. Of course.

However, to suggest that 'seeing it differently' does not make them "bad people or defiant of God's rule" is only true because of what obviously precedes 'how they see it.' What precedes their point of view is their world view, their Zeitgeist, if one prefers German terms which led to the Holocaust. ("Holocaust", incidentally, is a word of Greek origin meaning "sacrifice by fire.")

I don't see how this has anything to do with the topic at hand.

One's worldview is, again, what make people "bad or defiant of God's rule." And that worldview is based on the perspective they have gained by mentally trafficing with worldly wisdom.

Maybe they never had a chance of avoiding their pernicious Zeitgeist, but that fact would never excuse their participation, for instance, in a holocaust, would it?

Again, what does the holocaust (Which actually means "completely burnt" not "sacrifice by fire") have to do with the topic at hand?

If you have an evil point of view, you are still morally culpable, regardless of its origin. -- more so, if you chose your evil Zeitgeist in the face of considering knowledge ofthe Truth.

But that doesn't mean that everyone is naturally going to come to the same conclusions about God that you do.

So, the reason people don't come to the Truth is rooted in the sin nature, the darkened mind.

Or they were "indoctrinated" as you yourself said, above.

So, if an unregenerate person has become awakened to Christ, that is a miracle beyond their own doing. And on top of it, God hardens the heart of who He wants to, and softens that of who He wants to. Only our prayers and proclamation of the Word, along with the witness of our life, allow us to help anyone see the light. But, ultimately, it is God's sovereign will which determines who will get saved.

Then it isn't a person's fault at all, is it?

For you to suggest, however, that failing to recognize the truth is not culpable is really not supported in Scripture. Paul addresses this frontally in Romans 9 and throughout Romans, including in Romans 1.

Not what you said, above.

I, myself, have used the method of heaping abuse on those who refuse to acknowledge the absurdity,

What a beautiful person you are.

[MaryFreeman]

Great, that's what I've been saying all along.

Thank God....

The challenge for the believer is to accept that God does things that are beyond human comprehension.

That easy is it? Did that.... Next challenge please....

I thought we started out with a kid in the jungle....

So it's not really "everyone", is it.

Geez.... What is your point here blessed one? Okie dokie.... You win.... You get the point.... We good?

You're assuming to know what other people think here.

I am assuming that the word of God is true and correct.... And if that is so then everyone and everything else NOT agreeing with the word of God is a liar.... And that is ALL that I am assuming.... Nothing more.... The truth is obviously not based on what other people think here.... Otherwise I wouldn't be wrong nearly as much as I am.... The truth is based purely on the word of God.... Period.

[Fenris]

I am assuming that the word of God is true and correct.... And if that is so then everyone and everything else NOT agreeing with the word of God is a liar.... And that is ALL that I am assuming....

That's assuming a lot. Everyone picking up the NT is not going to come to the same conclusions that you are. But you're holding them culpable as though they did.

[MaryFreeman]

That's assuming a lot. Everyone picking up the NT is not going to come to the same conclusions that you are. But you're holding them culpable as though they did.

People can conclude what they wish to conclude.... A muslim believes that he is right and all others are wrong.... That does not make him right.... God would not be God if He allowed human conclusions to change the truth.... The truth is the truth even if you do not like it.... You cannot change it.... You cannot get away from it.... You can deny it but that won't destroy it.... You can ignore it but that doesn't make it invisible.... It is still there whether you see it or you don't....

The word of God is the word of God.... It is the truth.... Period....