What is the main reason some DO NOT submit to God?

[Fenris]

People can conclude what they wish to conclude....

Again, you're saying that anyone who doesn't believe as you do is willfully denying God. And that isn't true.

[Eyelog]

The fact that you think people can be 'indoctrinated' proves my point.

Yes, anyone who comes to different conclusions from you is 'stupid'. Of course.


I don't see how this has anything to do with the topic at hand.
Again, what does the holocaust (Which actually means "completely burnt" not "sacrifice by fire") have to do with the topic at hand?


But that doesn't mean that everyone is naturally going to come to the same conclusions about God that you do.


Or they were "indoctrinated" as you yourself said, above.

Then it isn't a person's fault at all, is it?

Not what you said, above.



What a beautiful person you are.

Thank you for the compliments, one and all.

Also, thank you for responding to my interloping comments.

I'm not sure I disagree with your point, ... only because i am not sure what it is.

But I have fully elucidated this issue. In the end, folks are culpable before God if they fail to accept Christ as their savior and lord. It does not matter where they began in the process of enlightenment, but where they end up.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

I'm sure you agree.

[MaryFreeman]

Again, you're saying that anyone who doesn't believe as you do is willfully denying God. And that isn't true.

Fenris this thread is not about me. What I said is clear as a bell without you reading into it.... There are things I believe that I do not expect other people to believe or think the worst of them for not believing.... Then there is the word of God.... And the Word of God is the Word of God.... Period.... Make of that what you will.... But I stand by what I said.... Your conclusions are your own.... I would appreciate though your cooperation in not turning this thread into a personal battle.... As I stated repeatedly.... This thread is not about me.... It is about the MAIN REASON SOME DO NOT SUBMIT TO GOD....

[Fenris]

Fenris this thread is not about me.

Ok fine.

You're saying that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus as god is willfully denying God. And that isn't true.

[Eyelog]

Again, you're saying that anyone who doesn't believe as you do is willfully denying God. And that isn't true.

Willfulness is inherent in operating out of the sin nature. The unregenerate have no choice but to do so, except to the extent they are granted conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment to come by the Spirit. They are under the control of the evil one. they are enslaved by the sin nature. all they do is willful. This is original sin, for which all are condemned. So, this debate about willful defiance is a bit off the mark. It's all willful, from conception forward.

So, to get saved, one must be granted repentance. One must be granted enlightenment. One must be granted knowledge ofthe truth. One must receive conviction. But this creates freedom, and in that moment one must respond in freedom. Those who fail to do so perish.

You've got your native intellect ahead of your openness to the grace and love of Christ, if it be true after all your participation on this site you have not accepted Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, the true messiah, the Christ.

If that is heaping abuse, all I can say is wah wah.

More than that, my beauty has been further enhanced.

[Fenris]

But I have fully elucidated this issue. In the end, folks are culpable before God if they fail to accept Christ as their savior and lord. It does not matter where they began in the process of enlightenment, but where they end up.

Even the 'indoctrinated' people?

I'm sure you agree.

mm no, I do not. Probably because I'm indoctrinated.

[Fenris]

Willfulness is inherent in operating out of the sin nature.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with sin. People grow up seeing the world a certain way, based on their upbringing and experience. If that upbringing included lessons about Jesus as god, likely they might believe it. If it didn't, likely they would not. I fail to see how sin enters into the picture.

More than that, my beauty has been further enhanced.

Your humility, too.

[MaryFreeman]

Ok fine.

You're saying that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus as god is willfully denying God. And that isn't true.

You are still making this about me blessed one....

I said the Word of God is the Word of God.... Period....

And just because folks don't wish to see the truth doesn't make it any less the truth.... Most people who truly believe in something are sincere.... That doesn't mean they aren't sincerely wrong....

As far as Jesus goes....


Joh 14:6 LITV Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

There are three (and only three) options for this statement.... It is either the truth.... Or it is a heinous lie and Jesus was the most atrocious perpetrator of mass delusion and apostasy of all time.... Or it is the insane ramblings of a madman....

But the thing is.... The question of why some do not submit to GOD leaves you and I both free to answer in a way that we can both agree on.... What is it that gets between men and God (whether you think Jesus is God or not)?

[Fenris]

You are still making this about me blessed one....

I said the Word of God is the Word of God.... Period....

And just because folks don't wish to see the truth doesn't make it any less the truth....

we're not talking about "what is the truth" though. We're talking about why some people "DO NOT submit to God". And I'm saying why but no one is listening.

As far as Jesus goes....


Joh 14:6 LITV Jesus said to him, I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

There are three (and only three) options for this statement.... It is either the truth.... Or it is a heinous lie and Jesus was the most atrocious perpetrator of mass delusion and apostasy of all time.... Or it is the insane ramblings of a madman....

Or perhaps he was misquoted. In any case this statement is not so obviously true that anyone hearing it would automatically believe it.

But the thing is.... The question of why some do not submit to GOD leaves you and I both free to answer in a way that we can both agree on.... What is it that gets between men and God (whether you think Jesus is God or not)?

It's not always "sin".

[MaryFreeman]

It's not always "sin".

No it is not.... I believe we both agreed on at least one other cause.... Severe and extreme neglect.... As is the case with the child in the gulag.... Resulting in ignorance (not to be confused with stupidity)....

What have you been trying to say? I mean.... Other than what we agreed on above....

[Fenris]

No it is not.... I believe we both agreed on at least one other cause.... Severe and extreme neglect....

No.

What have you been trying to say? I mean.... Other than what we agreed on above....

Because the bible is not so obviously true that anyone who hears it automatically believes it.

That's not willful rejection.

[Eyelog]

It has nothing whatsoever to do with sin. People grow up seeing the world a certain way, based on their upbringing and experience. If that upbringing included lessons about Jesus as god, likely they might believe it. If it didn't, likely they would not. I fail to see how sin enters into the picture.

Well, I did quote Jesus explaining how sin enters into the picture. But if you don't take His word for it, there is always what Moses recounts in Genesis 3, popularly regarded as the fall of mankind. That, sir, is how sin enters into the picture.

But let me stop the 'tude and speak plainly.

It seems you are saying that there is no sin if one is deceived as to the way to be saved -- believe on the only begotten Son of God.

I think you are focusing on a moral argument about the nature of culpability. But I am referring to the fact that we are all sinners from the moment of conception. Do I need to get you the OT cite?

Do you have an understanding of the Fall that is different from what I have espoused here?

More to the point of the thread, i think:

The point about Romans 1 was that Paul is saying those who disregard the witness of the Creation have no excuse. I would agree that he is speaking of a situation where the person is aware of the witness of creation and chooses to ignore it. I agree that is different from having been indoctrinated in Naturalism and therefore being blind to the witness of the Creation.

My point is that those who can 'plainly see from what has been made' and disregard it are culpable. Your point is that if one fails to 'plainly see from what is made' that's no fault of their own, especially if they grew up with a counter-indoctrination. I concur. However, my overarching point is that the witness of the Creation is only one type of witness to the truth of God. There are multiple other witnesses to the Truth, and those who ignore them are culpable for doing so.

Further overarching my position is the fact that God is just, and He does not condemn and harden those who should not be condemned and hardened. Though He has the sovereign right and ability to have mercy indiscriminately (Romans 9), the balance of Scripture makes it clear that He desires ALL to come to a saving knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:3-5
American Standard Version (ASV)
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,

So, my ultimate point is that I know more about this than you. ...

[Fenris]

Well, I did quote Jesus explaining how sin enters into the picture. But if you don't take His word for it, there is always what Moses recounts in Genesis 3, popularly regarded as the fall of mankind. That, sir, is how sin enters into the picture.

Genesis 4 says otherwise. But that's rather off topic.

But let me stop the 'tude and speak plainly.

It seems you are saying that there is no sin if one is deceived as to the way to be saved -- believe on the only begotten Son of God.

No. What I'm saying is, all disbelief of Jesus as god is not willful rejection.

I think you are focusing on a moral argument about the nature of culpability. But I am referring to the fact that we are all sinners from the moment of conception. Do I need to get you the OT cite?

yes, you do.

More to the point of the thread, i think:

The point about Romans 1 was that Paul is saying those who disregard the witness of the Creation have no excuse. I would agree that he is speaking of a situation where the person is aware of the witness of creation and chooses to ignore it.

I don't think creation is a witness of anything, except to one who already believes. And I'm getting a different read of Romans 1 in general.

My point is that those who can 'plainly see from what has been made' and disregard it are culpable.

Which, you seem to feel, is everyone.I don't feel the same way.

Your point is that if one fails to 'plainly see from what is made' that's no fault of their own, especially if they grew up with a counter-indoctrination. I concur. However, my overarching point is that the witness of the Creation is only one type of witness to the truth of God. There are multiple other witnesses to the Truth, and those who ignore them are culpable for doing so.

Then you agree with me about Romans 1?

Further overarching my position is the fact that God is just, and He does not condemn and harden those who should not be condemned and hardened.

Meaning...what?

So, my ultimate point is that I know more about this than you. ...

Well gee, I don't know why I bothered participating in this discussion then. You already know it all.

[Fenris]

Is there anyone here who was raised- devoutly- into a non-Christian faith? Who believed in something other than Jesus? Anyone?

Because for someone like that, reading the NT, it isn't so obviously true as some of you are making it out to be.

[MaryFreeman]

Well, I did quote Jesus explaining how sin enters into the picture. But if you don't take His word for it, there is always what Moses recounts in Genesis 3, popularly regarded as the fall of mankind. That, sir, is how sin enters into the picture.

But let me stop the 'tude and speak plainly.

It seems you are saying that there is no sin if one is deceived as to the way to be saved -- believe on the only begotten Son of God.

I think you are focusing on a moral argument about the nature of culpability. But I am referring to the fact that we are all sinners from the moment of conception. Do I need to get you the OT cite?

Do you have an understanding of the Fall that is different from what I have espoused here?

More to the point of the thread, i think:

The point about Romans 1 was that Paul is saying those who disregard the witness of the Creation have no excuse. I would agree that he is speaking of a situation where the person is aware of the witness of creation and chooses to ignore it. I agree that is different from having been indoctrinated in Naturalism and therefore being blind to the witness of the Creation.

My point is that those who can 'plainly see from what has been made' and disregard it are culpable. Your point is that if one fails to 'plainly see from what is made' that's no fault of their own, especially if they grew up with a counter-indoctrination. I concur. However, my overarching point is that the witness of the Creation is only one type of witness to the truth of God. There are multiple other witnesses to the Truth, and those who ignore them are culpable for doing so.

Further overarching my position is the fact that God is just, and He does not condemn and harden those who should not be condemned and hardened. Though He has the sovereign right and ability to have mercy indiscriminately (Romans 9), the balance of Scripture makes it clear that He desires ALL to come to a saving knowledge of the truth.



So, my ultimate point is that I know more about this than you. ...

Wow.... Just.... Wow....