What is the main reason some DO NOT submit to God?

[MaryFreeman]

Is there anyone here who was raised- devoutly- into a non-Christian faith? Who believed in something other than Jesus? Anyone?

Because for someone like that, reading the NT, it isn't so obviously true as some of you are making it out to be.

Can I ask.... I am kind of wondering why we cannot all just relate what we believe is a barrier between man and God? Regardless of who God is to you? The similarities may just shock you....

[Fenris]

Can I ask.... I am kind of wondering why we cannot all just relate what we believe is a barrier between man and God?

Because to speak of "a barrier between man and God" is to already be talking as a Christian.

[MaryFreeman]

Genesis 4 says otherwise.

It does not.

No. What I'm saying is, all disbelief of Jesus as god is not willful rejection.

It is too.... So here is the question.... Is it right to reject the belief of Jesus as God? Depends on who you ask.... Still doesn't help determine why people do not submit to God.... Even if you call Him George.... Which isn't advisable.... But still....

yes, you do.

I don't think creation is a witness of anything, except to one who already believes. And I'm getting a different read of Romans 1 in general.

Wow Fenris.... This is what I mean when I say perception doesn't change the truth.... I can look around me and know that God.... Your God.... The God of Moses MUST be responsible for all of this because it cannot be an accident.... Do you or do you not believe that YHWH created heaven and earth?

But even those who do not believe that cannot change the truth of it....

Well gee, I don't know why I bothered participating in this discussion then. You already know it all.

[Fenris]

It does not.

Shrug.

It is too.... So here is the question.... Is it right to reject the belief of Jesus as God? Depends on who you ask.... Still doesn't help determine why people do not submit to God....

I've answered this several times already.

Wow Fenris.... This is what I mean when I say perception doesn't change the truth.... I can look around me and know that God.... Your God.... The God of Moses MUST be responsible for all of this because it cannot be an accident.... Do you or do you not believe that YHWH created heaven and earth?

I do not think that it's so obvious that the universe has a creator. That doesn't mean that I don't believe. It means I understand how someone could not believe.

[MaryFreeman]

I've answered this several times already.

My point was not to cause you to answer it again but to prove it irrelevant to the discussion at hand....

I do not think that it's so obvious that the universe has a creator. That doesn't mean that I don't believe. It means I understand how someone could not believe.

Considering the fact that immoral groups such as atheists have spent generations trying to destroy God and claim He is dead.... Me too.... My only point is that obvious or not.... If one chooses to believe it they will see it.... If not.... They won't....

[Fenris]

Considering the fact that immoral groups such as atheists have spent generations trying to destroy God and claim He is dead.... Me too.... My only point is that obvious or not.... If one chooses to believe it they will see it.... If not.... They won't....

You're not making the slightest effort to see it from another perspective.

[MaryFreeman]

You're not making the slightest effort to see it from another perspective.

Am so.... LOL.... You are set on opposing me aren't you?

The truth is that God created EVERYTHING.... You and I both agree on that.... The truth of that statement is evident in the things He created.... Whether it is or is not obvious.... It is still the truth....

And yet there are groups out there who are hellbent on destroying Gods existence so that they can live whatever lifestyle they choose.... In doing so Romans 1 says their hearts were darkened and their reasoning is vain.... Which means they have made the truth so obscure they are unable to see it.... That does not mean it is no longer there....

[Eyelog]

Genesis 4 says otherwise. But that's rather off topic.No. What I'm saying is, all disbelief of Jesus as god is not willful rejection.

Okay. Paul did not willfully reject Christ as He persecuted the church, because he did so without knowledge.

1 Timothy 1:13
Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

But what is the significance of this observation? Paul was condemned to Hell before he finally accepted Christ.

Need i givethe OT cite? yes, you do.

Psalm 58:3
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.
Psalm 51:6
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

Then you agree with me about Romans 1?

If I understand you correctly, yes.

Well gee, I don't know why I bothered participating in this discussion then. You already know it all.

You are a good sport, though. I appreciate that.


Anyhow, I was not raised to believe the Word of God. I came to the Lord at age 30. I was indoctrinated with humanism. But when I heard the Word and then read it, my life was transformed, 180 degrees.

It was no small thing for the Lord to change Saul into Paul, nor me into a believer. It would be no small thing for God to convict you of the reality of Jesus Christ, coming up as you have. But the question is whether we respond when He has revealed Himself to us.

The ultimate point on this subject is well expressed by Paul, as to whether we will overcome unbelief and be saved:

7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.2 Th 2.

Fortunately, those who seek find.

[Fenris]

Am so.

No, you're really not.

The truth is that God created EVERYTHING.... You and I both agree on that.... The truth of that statement is evident in the things He created.... Whether it is or is not obvious.... It is still the truth....

It makes a big difference if it's obvious or not. If it's not obvious, then you can't blame people for not believing it.

And yet there are groups out there who are hellbent on destroying Gods existence so that they can live whatever lifestyle they choose....

Or maybe they don't believe because its, you know, not so obvious after all?

[Fenris]

Okay. Paul did not willfully reject Christ as He persecuted the church, because he did so without knowledge.

But what is the significance of this observation? Paul was condemned to Hell before he finally accepted Christ.

I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

Amazing.

Psalm 58:3
Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies.
Psalm 51:6
Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.

A poem about bad people being bad. Yay.

Anyhow, I was not raised to believe the Word of God. I came to the Lord at age 30. I was indoctrinated with humanism. But when I heard the Word and then read it, my life was transformed, 180 degrees.

That's great. And you still can't understand how someone could read the bible and not believe?

[Eyelog]

[I]And you still can't understand how someone could read the bible and not believe?

Of course I do. I think I have very clearly explained why folks don't get saved but are yet culpable in God's eyes. I have explained why they fail to observethe witness of the Creation. the same principles apply to why they don't see the Truth in the Word.

God Bless.

[Fenris]

Of course I do. I think I have very clearly explained why folks don't get saved but are yet culpable in God's eyes. I have explained why they fail to observethe witness of the Creation. the same principles apply to why they don't see the Truth in the Word.

Again, shrug. I suppose it's in your bible so you must believe it to be correct.

[Eyelog]

Again, shrug. I suppose it's in your bible so you must believe it to be correct.

I answer your shrug with concern for your soul --not because you disagree with me, but because you have somehow been anesthetized to the Truth of Scripture.

That said, you are twisting out there. If 'my' Bible is not the source of insight into spiritual matters, there is no source. Period.

And I say that without the least sense of being offended or angry or even frustrated. It's just a fact.

I know all about philosophical argumentation and the so-called wisdom of man. I spent 12 years academically immersed in it after high school before I read truth, kindness and goodness for the first time: Not in anything written from the mind of man, but in the Word of God. ... Yes, I know the difference first hand.

But if you want to talk philosophy and exclude the Bible, why are you yapping on this site, dude?

Remember: Bible forums.com.

This is not an invitation to knock it off. Rather, it is a question about what you seek to accomplish. By all means do what gives you a thrill.

But in this thread you discredit yourself at every turn so far as imparting the least bit of insight into spiritual matters.

If I have misunderstood you or mischaracterized your view, by all means let me know. But please do so with some detail, that I may recant what I said inaccurately about you and your viewpoint.

[Fenris]

I answer your shrug with concern for your soul --not because you disagree with me, but because you have somehow been anesthetized to the Truth of Scripture.

This is just intellectually lazy. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I've been "anesthetized to the Truth of Scripture." I believe in a truth of scripture. Just not the same as yours.

That said, you are twisting out there. If 'my' Bible is not the source of insight into spiritual matters, there is no source. Period.

I find 'my' bible to be a source of insight. That is a perfectly reasonable source, whether you agree or not.

But if you want to talk philosophy and exclude the Bible, why are you yapping on this site, dude?

Ah, more of your inner beauty shining forth. How blessed are we to have you here.

The topic of the discussion here isn't philosophy. It's whether or not God's existence is so patently obvious that anyone who disbelieves it is willfully denying God. So far no one here has made that case convincing for me.

[Eyelog]

This is just intellectually lazy. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I've been "anesthetized to the Truth of Scripture." I believe in a truth of scripture. Just not the same as yours.

I find 'my' bible to be a source of insight. That is a perfectly reasonable source, whether you agree or not.

Ah, more of your inner beauty shining forth. How blessed are we to have you here.

The topic of the discussion here isn't philosophy. It's whether or not God's existence is so patently obvious that anyone who disbelieves it is willfully denying God. So far no one here has made that case convincing for me.

I appreciate you are a spunky fellow. Good for you.

I'm not sure what 'your ' bible may be, but I did quote the OT, and you didn't seem to find that authoritative enough.

Anyway, since you reject all my Scripture, how are you arguing theologically rather than philosopohically? I haven't seen you quote any scripture in this, friend.

In any event, ironically, I have argued that willfulness is only relevant if one already has heard the truth and rejects it. But even there, a person can believe the truth only if it is supernaturally revealed to them. C.f., Matthew 16:15-17 15 He *said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


I could go on.

So, I don't disagree that it is not willful ignorance in one sense. However, Scripture also says that no one has an excuse, because God has revealed Himself to each person. It isa matter of degree and in what way that is the issue.

But, really, you seem to be coming from the point of view that God may not be just to require all to come to Him through the only name by which one may be saved, Jesus Christ. (I know, can' trust that Peter dude, let alone some lame-o first century physician waxing legal defender via Acts, i.e., Luke -- 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED by you, THE BUILDERS, but WHICH BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts 4).

If it be true, you might argue, that God is not just to have Jesus as the way , truth and life, thorugh which no one comes to the father, but through Jesus (Jn 14:6), then such NT claims are wihtout warrant. Hence, you can comfortably go on not believing on Jesus.

Well, let's get specific. You have had ample exposure to the NT. You, therefore, are without excuse.

But so far as the Aborigine prior to missionaries, for example, it is clear that God is just and that He judges based on what we have, not on what we do not have. 2 Corinthians 8:12
For if the readiness is present, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have.

Matthew 13:11 Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.

Matthew 25: 29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.

Luke 6:49
But the one who has heard and has not acted accordingly, is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation; and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed, and the ruin of that house was great.”


1 Corinthians 3:8
Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.


2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.


Revelation 22: 12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Need I go on?

The point is that whether you call it willful or not, all are culpable. The Aborigine who murders is culpable to God. The Aborigine who has never heard the name of Jesuss must be saved by faith anyway. And we know that those who are saved by faith, such as Abraham, are saved by faith in God, and Jesus has paid the sin penalty so they may be saved. This does not suggest that there is a way to God apart from Christ. This suggests that a person truly ignorant of Christ's name can be saved by faith in the Lord, even if He does not know His name. Again, the question is what we do with the information we have received.

But a cannibal born into that culture and ignorant of the Christ, as well as YHWY, is still going to hell if they fail to live by faith in the true Lord. Why? Because of original sin and the sins they commit in their lifetime. If God decides not to reveal a way for such a person to know the truth and be saved, that is His soverign choice, it is just, and whether you call it willful refusal to believe on God or not, the person is culpable for their sins, and going to Hell.

But you and I don't know how God handles each individual in such a tribe. We just trust it is just. And we can do so because we know all of us deserve Hell. It is only by grace that any of us are saved. So, it is not up to us to judge God's righteous judgments and choices and how He has set things up.

Romans 9:¹⁹ You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” ²⁰ On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? ²¹ Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? ²² What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? ²³ And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, ²⁴ even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

Again, the emphasis on willful refusal to believe in what is revealed about Jesus is but a tangential footnote to the ultimate truth that if a person gets wind of Jesus, they had better seek Him. A refusal to do so is a failure to love the truth and so be saved. 2 Ths 2:10 ... they perish because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

From now on, how about quoting 'your' Bible when you make what you deem to be a theological, and not philosophical, argument. I'd appreciate that.