Muslim Convert Interview

[Vhayes]

Exactly, I know an Iraqi muslim convert myself and he knows full well the dangers Islam poses to our freedoms. Crazy how so many still choose to call those of us sounding the warning cry as hatemongers and fear mongers.

May I ask how Islam poses threats to our freedoms? I'm not being snarky - I just don't understand how Islam can do anything to our freedom - or rights - which are part of our Constitution.

[awestruckchild]

Upset? No not at all. On the contrary, I'm simply trying to illustrate to you that simplicity speaks to all men. The nonsensical, only to those who are part of some kind of ( ) inner circle, or an attempt at being clever or profound.

Either way, it was lost to me in the translation.

The last time I saw this kind of silly behavior was when you guys began following Epi around and harassing him because you didn't like the truths he was speaking.
It didn't end well and I think you should stop, but I will leave you to it if this is the direction you choose. I will not respond to your taunts, so if you want to derail saved7's very good thread, you will do so on your own.

[TomH]

Which makes me have to fight sometimes to not fall under some evil pall of a moroseness that says, then what is the point?
But He saves me from it by reminding me that His arm is not too short to save.
Now think on THAT!

I'll try the direct approach then.

Exactly what the heck are you saying here?

[Bandit]

Marsydotes and doseydotes and littlelamseydivy.

I'll make sense of mine, if you'll return the favor.

Am I supposed to understand this Tom?
Is the op supposed to understand it?

Hey guys, I'm not here to take sides, but this conversation is making my head spin. Please speak clearly and slowly so the rest of us can follow along.

[RevLogos]

May I ask how Islam poses threats to our freedoms? I'm not being snarky - I just don't understand how Islam can do anything to our freedom - or rights - which are part of our Constitution.

Patriot Act
TSA pat downs, full body scans...
DHS
Drones

Things like that?

[Vhayes]

Oh. Ok - sorry. I really wasn't "getting" it.

So, you are saying it's our fear of terrorists that is allowing us to be stripped of our freedoms, not that they will take over the country and "make" us accept Islam.

[RevLogos]

Oh. Ok - sorry. I really wasn't "getting" it.

So, you are saying it's our fear of terrorists that is allowing us to be stripped of our freedoms, not that they will take over the country and "make" us accept Islam.

It is hard to really see the changes here without something to compare it against.

I was in Munich a while back and rode the S-Bahn and U-Bahn system quite a bit for a couple of weeks. These are the overland trains and subways. Fantastic system, easy to get from/to anywhere in Munich or surrounding areas.

There were no security checks, no x-rays, no body scans, no lines, no bag searches, no ID checks, not even any turnstyles. No choke-points anywhere. Even the ticketing is on the honor system. Wonderful way to travel.

Sadly it will all change as soon as a few hundred people are blown up.

It isn't fun living in a world where one can reasonably expect attempts at mass murder at any time. But no I don't expect Islamists to be too successful at turning America into a Sharia State. It is the goal of course, just as it is in Egypt, Syria, Libya, etc. so we do need to guard against such efforts.

[Saved7]

May I ask how Islam poses threats to our freedoms? I'm not being snarky - I just don't understand how Islam can do anything to our freedom - or rights - which are part of our Constitution.

I don't know if you know the history of Islam, but if you check into their history you'll see that they work the same where ever they go and their methods have not changed over the last 1400 years.
The Koran teaches them that when they are living in an area where they are the minority they are to be peaceful and kind to those who surround them. But when they grow in numbers, they are are to stay in that area until they are big enough to take it over. Meaning, slowly they take over by demanding their laws be instituted, then they start forbidding outsiders from coming into their territory, they are kind of like gangs that way. And when they have grown in number enough, if the country or city they are in doesn't bow to their will/demands for new laws (Sharia) then they are to make war with those people until those people succumb to the fear or die off enough that they have full control of that area. Then they spread out from there like a cancer.

Just take a look at France and Germany, take a look at what is happening in some cities back in Michigan, where they have begun to take over the schools and police and are now having the call to worship over the loud speakers in the city. Though my memory isn't too clear on the latest demands from muslims in the Dearborn area, but they are demanding to change the local laws for schools and such to become as they would have them because the city is majority muslim. Therefore, it's muslim rule. Once they've taken that city and taken the city of Warren (I believe it's Warren) they will slowly spread further out and take the next city and the next until they've consumed the whole state, then the country, and Sharia law is not a law you want to live under. If you're not sure that Islam is an oppressive religion and political system combined, take a close look at those countries in the Middle East and check the real history of how they came to be under Islamic rule. They even rewrite history so...well, proof is the denial of Israel having lived in the Middle East, having been slaves in Egypt and they deny the holocaust, and God only knows what they teach their children in school.

This is how they are a threat to our freedoms, it starts with fear and cowering and giving in to them because we don't want to be considered hate mongers and we certainly don't want violence. Then when that no longer works, they start giving us reason to fear.

[Saved7]

I'll try the direct approach then.

Exactly what the heck are you saying here?

I had no problem understanding her, and I'm not sure why you find your behavior acceptable, but this mocking needs to stop.

[Vhayes]

I don't know if you know the history of Islam, but if you check into their history you'll see that they work the same where ever they go and their methods have not changed over the last 1400 years.
The Koran teaches them that when they are living in an area where they are the minority they are to be peaceful and kind to those who surround them. But when they grow in numbers, they are are to stay in that area until they are big enough to take it over. Meaning, slowly they take over by demanding their laws be instituted, then they start forbidding outsiders from coming into their territory, they are kind of like gangs that way. And when they have grown in number enough, if the country or city they are in doesn't bow to their will/demands for new laws (Sharia) then they are to make war with those people until those people succumb to the fear or die off enough that they have full control of that area. Then they spread out from there like a cancer.

Just take a look at France and Germany, take a look at what is happening in some cities back in Michigan, where they have begun to take over the schools and police and are now having the call to worship over the loud speakers in the city. Though my memory isn't too clear on the latest demands from muslims in the Dearborn area, but they are demanding to change the local laws for schools and such to become as they would have them because the city is majority muslim. Therefore, it's muslim rule. Once they've taken that city and taken the city of Warren (I believe it's Warren) they will slowly spread further out and take the next city and the next until they've consumed the whole state, then the country, and Sharia law is not a law you want to live under. If you're not sure that Islam is an oppressive religion and political system combined, take a close look at those countries in the Middle East and check the real history of how they came to be under Islamic rule. They even rewrite history so...well, proof is the denial of Israel having lived in the Middle East, having been slaves in Egypt and they deny the holocaust, and God only knows what they teach their children in school.

This is how they are a threat to our freedoms, it starts with fear and cowering and giving in to them because we don't want to be considered hate mongers and we certainly don't want violence. Then when that no longer works, they start giving us reason to fear.

Yet, our Constitution and our laws are set up so that all Americans have the ability to freely practice their religion - whatever religion that happens to be. We also have the ability to elect our representatives or not elect them again if we find they are not leading us in the way we desire to be led.

I have no doubt Muslim regimes are repressive at best and despotic at worst; all one has to do is look at Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. But the Taliban is not ever going to "rule" here because it is against the very backbone of our laws. And when I speak with Muslims who have immigrated to this country, they did so for one main reason - freedom. To be able to worship as they see fit (still Islam) yet not to be forced into tribal type disputes or have every facet of their lives dictated to them by the mullahs. They revel in their ability to earn a good living, raise their children as they see fit and go to Disneyland - they have no desire to go back to what they escaped.

I DO know there are some Muslims, at least in my city, who are here because they are political refugees. They would still rather be in their own country and they do not integrate with the rest of the populace. They keep to themselves for the most part and the men I have encountered in stores will lay change on the counter rather than put it in your hand. It's weird. Would those people like to turn this into a caliphate? Probably. Is that ever going to happen? Not likely.

it starts with fear and cowering and giving in to them

I do not fear Muslims. I do not cower away from them. I have no idea what that even means. What exactly have we given in to?

[Saved7]

Yet, our Constitution and our laws are set up so that all Americans have the ability to freely practice their religion - whatever religion that happens to be. We also have the ability to elect our representatives or not elect them again if we find they are not leading us in the way we desire to be led.

I have no doubt Muslim regimes are repressive at best and despotic at worst; all one has to do is look at Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. But the Taliban is not ever going to "rule" here because it is against the very backbone of our laws. And when I speak with Muslims who have immigrated to this country, they did so for one main reason - freedom. To be able to worship as they see fit (still Islam) yet not to be forced into tribal type disputes or have every facet of their lives dictated to them by the mullahs. They revel in their ability to earn a good living, raise their children as they see fit and go to Disneyland - they have no desire to go back to what they escaped.

I DO know there are some Muslims, at least in my city, who are here because they are political refugees. They would still rather be in their own country and they do not integrate with the rest of the populace. They keep to themselves for the most part and the men I have encountered in stores will lay change on the counter rather than put it in your hand. It's weird. Would those people like to turn this into a caliphate? Probably. Is that ever going to happen? Not likely.



I do not fear Muslims. I do not cower away from them. I have no idea what that even means. What exactly have we given in to?

Unfortunately, our laws are useless when the leaders and the majority of the people in our country have no backbone and succumb to fear of being "hatemongers". I have read many articles and comments where even Christians don't see the threat and say "let them have their sharia law." But what they don't understand is that their laws cannot coexist with ours. that's where the problem comes in. And because our laws allow such freedoms of religion, it also forbids us from prohibiting them from holding important legal positions in our country. One such case is where a muslim judge excused a muslim man for attacking a non-muslim because the American should have known not to dress up in a costume of Mohammed. That's this country, not theirs. When I drive by the univerisities of law, I see nothing but muslims attending. They know what they are doing, and they are going after the positions that allows them the power to change laws. And V...I don't cower either, but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of our western culture does. Pay attention, psychology works wonders on most folks in the country and on many in the Church.

As far as what have we given into goes, well, many grocers are now going to be starting to carry "halal" meats only, it's been in the news. Why? Because their religion requires it. Many schools are starting to teach about the Koran and teach children how to pray like a muslim, even if it's just for a day, but you don't see that happening with Christianity. All in the name of "political correctness". Many companies and schools are being forced to provide a private place for the muslim children to be able to go pray, in the meantime the rest of the students are learning. I've read countless stories where muslim cabbies won't allow someone in their vehicle because they have alchohol in a grocery bag or pork in a grocery bag....and they get away with it (most times). Nobody will even print a publication "blaspheming" mohommed for fear of retribution, but they sure don't mind blaspheming Jesus' Name all over the place. Could you imagine the backlack if someone did a "Davinci" code style movie about mohammed? They are trying to get a law instituted that forbids anyone from speaking against the koran or allah or mohommad.
I'm willing to bet that people never thought they'd see the day where gays were given the right to marry. Yet, here it is in many states and coming to a state near you soon. And how did this happen? They convinced the people of this country that they were hatemongers for disagreeing with them...and they kept pounding and pounding away until they got what they wanted. They won't stop until they succeed fully. If this can happen, don't think it won't happen with Islam, especially since these folks will use real violence if they need to in order to get what they want.

[Vhayes]

Unfortunately, our laws are useless when the leaders and the majority of the people in our country have no backbone and succumb to fear of being "hatemongers". I have read many articles and comments where even Christians don't see the threat and say "let them have their sharia law." But what they don't understand is that their laws cannot coexist with ours. that's where the problem comes in.

I think when people say let them have their Sharia law, they are meaning in the same exact way Jewish people are allowed to have B'eth Din courts. They handle domestic and family disputes, things like divorce and inheritance issues, but the "religious" courts never, ever handle criminal cases. And they never CAN because of the structure of our country and it's legal system.

And because our laws allow such freedoms of religion, it also forbids us from prohibiting them from holding important legal positions in our country. One such case is where a muslim judge excused a muslim man for attacking a non-muslim because the American should have known not to dress up in a costume of Mohammed. That's this country, not theirs. When I drive by the univerisities of law, I see nothing but muslims attending. They know what they are doing, and they are going after the positions that allows them the power to change laws. And V...I don't cower either, but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of our western culture does. Pay attention, psychology works wonders on most folks in the country and on many in the Church.

WHAT psychology? Fear? How have the Muslims in your town created fear?

I have no idea where you live but there is a huge law school and a smaller law school where I live. I see all sorts of people going in and coming out - not just Muslims. I heard the same arguments when I was a teenager about blacks enrolling in law school - "Oh no - they're gonna change the laws of our country and oppress the white man. They know what they're doing." The same was said about the Irish when they first immigrated - they "took over" areas and ran the "regular" people out. Soon, they would take over. And we can't have that because the Pope will be running the country!!!!"

Now, we have St. Patrick's Day parades. Boston has a HUGE Irish American citizenry. And guess what - they may be Catholic but they still consider themselves American. AND they work to uphold the Constitution.

As far as what have we given into goes, well, many grocers are now going to be starting to carry "halal" meats only, it's been in the news. Why? Because their religion requires it.

Ok - so what. My local Kroger carries kosher meat. Big deal. Grocers will carry what they can sell. If they have a large clientele who are Muslim, they will carry halal food. If they have a large Jewish clientele, they will carry kosher foods.

Many schools are starting to teach about the Koran and teach children how to pray like a muslim, even if it's just for a day, but you don't see that happening with Christianity. All in the name of "political correctness".

The accounts I have read tell of trying to teach children that while their classmates may dress different and speak a little different, they are in fact still children - that "different" doesn't mean worse or better - it just means different. It isn't "political correctness" as much as it's teaching about different cultures - which is allowed in schools and in my opinion should be encouraged. And why would you need to do the same for Christianity when most of the students in the classroom look like western Christians?

Many companies and schools are being forced to provide a private place for the muslim children to be able to go pray, in the meantime the rest of the students are learning.

This I disagree with completely and did indeed call my local school board to lodge a complaint. Not in a school during class hours - that just should not be. the same with work places.

I've read countless stories where muslim cabbies won't allow someone in their vehicle because they have alchohol in a grocery bag or pork in a grocery bag....and they get away with it (most times).

No, they don't get away with it most times. They get fired by the cab company. And if they own the cab company, they get sued for discrimination. I know because I have been following those stories for a few years now.

Nobody will even print a publication "blaspheming" mohommed for fear of retribution, but they sure don't mind blaspheming Jesus' Name all over the place. Could you imagine the backlack if someone did a "Davinci" code style movie about mohammed? They are trying to get a law instituted that forbids anyone from speaking against the koran or allah or mohommad.

They may be trying but that isn't going to happen. It's free speech. Period. And the reason no one publishes anything blaspheming mohammad is because it simply would not sell. No Muslim would go see a movie like that and I seriously doubt any Christian would. First, we don't understand their culture enough for it to make any sense and second, they probably feel the only people in the audience would be the same ones who faithfully read "Jihad Watch" - you know, the KKK types. Why would they cater to them?

I'm willing to bet that people never thought they'd see the day where gays were given the right to marry. Yet, here it is in many states and coming to a state near you soon. And how did this happen? They convinced the people of this country that they were hatemongers for disagreeing with them...and they kept pounding and pounding away until they got what they wanted. They won't stop until they succeed fully. If this can happen, don't think it won't happen with Islam, especially since these folks will use real violence if they need to in order to get what they want.

Ok - help me out here -

What does gay marriage have to do with terrorism?

You do realize there was a time when women in this country could not vote - and that women's suffrage passed by only a couple of votes in our hallowed government bodies?

Don't think it won't happen with Islam? WHAT will happen with Islam? That they be accorded the same rights as other Americans (if they are indeed Americans)?

I'm sorry, I just do not understand the fear that people have. If God puts a Muslim in my path I will work to make sure they see the Jesus in me. Who knows, they may actually want to know more about Christianity if they see love and acceptance rather than fear and disgust.

[Saved7]

Ok, well I'm certainly not going to argue with you about this, if you wish to see it as a blind racist type of thing, that's on you. Just remember that our laws aren't what protect us...it's God. And we have not been pleasing him by allowing homosexuality to run rampant, and when the Church starts backing it up, you can bet on this, God will judge us as a whole. I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but God does in fact use other religions and other countries to take down another country and he can do it anyway he sees fit. If he wants to ruin us for allowing sodomy, then he can certainly use Islam as that tool of judgement and those who have supported the things that brought on the judgement will be the first to stand before him and be judged for the destruction they helped bring upon us.
And don't assume that I won't try to preach to a muslim...I have plenty of muslim friends that I've tried to reach and total strangers as well. However, their rights....is not what this is about, and if you please, stop derailing my thread. This was supposed to be a post rejoicing over what God is doing in the muslim community, and a way of showing muslims how our God works around those who would stop others from hearing about Jesus.
Btw, they have the rights the rest of us have, they don't want to stop there though. You have imagined some kind of civil rights offense where there is none, it's simply Americans trying to protect the rights they have from being taken by those who would.

[RevLogos]

I think when people say let them have their Sharia law, they are meaning in the same exact way Jewish people are allowed to have B'eth Din courts. They handle domestic and family disputes, things like divorce and inheritance issues, but the "religious" courts never, ever handle criminal cases. And they never CAN because of the structure of our country and it's legal system.

The problem is that what is considered right and wrong under Sharia law is inconsistent with what we believe is right and wrong under Judeo-Christian values. Therefore it very quickly can become a criminal issue.

Sharia law supports polygamy. Shall we allow Muslim men to have multiple wives under the guise of religious freedom? Is this a family issue or a criminal issue?
Sharia law allows a husband to beat his wife under certain circumstances. Shall we allow this?
Sharia law allows marrying your second cousin. Is this OK too?

And when the belief extends beyond a family into a community, we get real problems. A Sharia community might not allow their women to get an education, or to even drive. Shall we permit this? A Sharia community might stone teenagers to death because of their hairstyle, as happens in Iraq. Is this OK?

These questions have already been addressed by the Supreme court. The first amendment freedom of religion applies to opinion and belief only, not to actions. This was addressed in Reynolds vs. the United States, a case where a Mormon charged with polygamy argued it was his religious duty to have multiple wives, thus the laws against polygamy violated his first amendment rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._United_States

Although the constitution did not define religion, the Court investigated the history of religious freedom in the United States. In the ruling, the court quoted a letter from Thomas Jefferson in which he stated that there was a distinction between religious belief and action that flowed from religious belief. The former "lies solely between man and his God," therefore "the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions." The court argued that if polygamy was allowed, someone might eventually argue that human sacrifice was a necessary part of their religion, and "to permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself." The Court believed the true spirit of the First Amendment was that Congress could not legislate against opinion, but could legislate against action.

Bottom line is that a Muslim can believe anything he/she wants but religious actions cannot violate US law or constitution. This basically means that very little of Sharia law could be allowed to exist. In theory. To me this sounds very reasonable. But it will be tested again.

[Vhayes]

Ok, well I'm certainly not going to argue with you about this, if you wish to see it as a blind racist type of thing, that's on you. Just remember that our laws aren't what protect us...it's God. And we have not been pleasing him by allowing homosexuality to run rampant, and when the Church starts backing it up, you can bet on this, God will judge us as a whole. I don't know if you've ever noticed this, but God does in fact use other religions and other countries to take down another country and he can do it anyway he sees fit. If he wants to ruin us for allowing sodomy, then he can certainly use Islam as that tool of judgement and those who have supported the things that brought on the judgement will be the first to stand before him and be judged for the destruction they helped bring upon us.
And don't assume that I won't try to preach to a muslim...I have plenty of muslim friends that I've tried to reach and total strangers as well. However, their rights....is not what this is about, and if you please, stop derailing my thread. This was supposed to be a post rejoicing over what God is doing in the muslim community, and a way of showing muslims how our God works around those who would stop others from hearing about Jesus.
Btw, they have the rights the rest of us have, they don't want to stop there though. You have imagined some kind of civil rights offense where there is none, it's simply Americans trying to protect the rights they have from being taken by those who would.

That's waaaaay outta line. We are NOT a theocracy. Thank God Almighty!!

Love. The GREATEST of all the gifts is... love. Not patriotism.