NC Pator Sean Harris says Parents should "Punch" their gay acting children...

[keck553]

I think it's interesting how the liberal media will search high and low for just one controversial sermon and blast it on their hate tube yet give other radical pastors like Jeramiah Wright a pass

[Warrior4God]

I think it's interesting how the liberal media will search high and low for just one controversial sermon and blast it on their hate tube yet give other radical pastors like Jeramiah Wright a pass

It's because Jeremiah Wright endorsed Obama. That means whatever he says in his sermons has to be ok, then. Anybody that endorses Obama is a good and upstanding sort of undividual, in a liberal's point of view. When are you going to learn that, silly?

[keck553]

It's because Jeremiah Wright endorsed Obama. That means whatever he says in his sermons has to be ok, then. Anybody that endorses Obama is a good and upstanding sort of undividual, in a liberal's point of view. When are you going to learn that, silly?

I suppose i'm flagged as an enemy of the state now......

[Warrior4God]

I suppose i'm flagged as an enemy of the state now......

Well, if you haven't been already, you should be. Maybe I'm a secret agent working for the brown shirts and I'm going to tattle on you to Obama and the Secret Service?

[keck553]

Well, if you haven't been already, you should be. Maybe I'm a secret agent working for the brown shirts and I'm going to tattle on you to Obama and the Secret Service?

Well, there's a Yehuda in evey crowd. Fortunately i am not even worth the price of 30 coins to the world.

[Bandit]

That's your prerogative, as long as you understand that in the majority of instances, the psychology behind lying, stealing, etc. is far different than the psychology at the heart of homosexual / transgendered issues. By psychology I am referring to the state of mind of the individual, which in this case would be your child.

I think the apostle Paul would disagree with you. (See the Book of Romans, chapter 1.) All sin is rooted in the psychology of rebellion.

[Athanasius]

I think the apostle Paul would disagree with you. (See the Book of Romans, chapter 1.) All sin is rooted in the psychology of rebellion.

When you break everything down, sure. Ignoring the simplification, however: the psychology behind a lie and the self-realization that hey, I was born the wrong sex, are two quite different things.

[Bandit]

When you break everything down, sure. Ignoring the simplification, however: the psychology behind a lie and the self-realization that hey, I was born the wrong sex, are two quite different things.

Paul would still disagree with you. One may make different excuses for different sins, but in the end they are still sin. A sin by any other name is still sin.

Paul speaks in Romans 1:18 of those who suppress the knowledge of God in unrighteousness. And then in verse 24 it says that God gives such persons up to vile passions (including homosexual behavior). The one who has suppressed God's truth may excuse his/her behavior in any of a number of ways, but that excuse does not change the truth of the matter.

[Athanasius]

Paul would still disagree with you. One may make different excuses for different sins, but in the end they are still sin. A sin by any other name is still sin.

Paul speaks in Romans 1:18 of those who suppress the knowledge of God in unrighteousness. And then in verse 24 it says that God gives such persons up to vile passions (including homosexual behavior). The one who has suppressed God's truth may excuse his/her behavior in any of a number of ways, but that excuse does not change the truth of the matter.

You're still simplifying what is potentially an incredibly complex issue. There are, for example, people who don't 'suppress knowledge of God' - that is, they are Christians - who struggle with same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria, etc. It certainly isn't, in their situations, a matter of trying to come up with excuses to sin. Furthermore your interpretation of Paul does not hold in these cases, and as such I would say that no, Paul would not still disagree with me (although Bandit-Paul might). I'm not disputing that sin is sin. I'm saying that not all sins are equal, and your use of the word 'excuse' makes me think that you don't have a good grasp of the realities involved.

[Bandit]

You're still simplifying what is potentially an incredibly complex issue. There are, for example, people who don't 'suppress knowledge of God' - that is, they are Christians - who struggle with same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria, etc. It certainly isn't, in their situations, a matter of trying to come up with excuses to sin. ...

But Athanasius, did you not post the following earlier?

When you break everything down, sure. Ignoring the simplification, however: the psychology behind a lie and the self-realization that hey, I was born the wrong sex, are two quite different things.

Unless I misunderstood, it does appear to me that you were in this post proposing an "excuse" for this sin. (And perhaps this excuse is itself a lie?) So, is it not possible, and actually highly likely, that most such claims of being born the wrong sex, are little more than an excuse for the behavior? (i.e., What I do is not my fault so it can't be wrong; I was born to do it.) I think the gay/lesbian community wants the rest of the world to buy into this excuse (lie) so that their behavior will be considered just a normal part of their nature and not in any way sinful or wrong. (Not only do they approve of their own behavior, but they want everyone else to approve of it as well. And by approve, I mean they don't want it to be labled sin. Romans 1:32 would kind of fit here.)

And as far as this being a complex issue, isn't this the case for all sin (we were born to do it)? Each person is going to have problems in different areas: some with anger, some with lust, some with greed, some in sexual areas, some with theft, some with adultry, etc. Sin (a departure from the design of God) is a part of each person's makeup, but sin can and should be resisted. Each of us has areas where we can be tempted, but to excuse any of these areas is to deny the truth.

... Furthermore your interpretation of Paul does not hold in these cases, and as such I would say that no, Paul would not still disagree with me (although Bandit-Paul might). I'm not disputing that sin is sin. I'm saying that not all sins are equal, and your use of the word 'excuse' makes me think that you don't have a good grasp of the realities involved.

I agree that not all sins are equal, but all sins are sin. I think the realities here are that a group of people (the Gay-Lesbian-Transvestite-Bisexual community) don't want their behavior to be labeled as sinful, so they want to try to convince us (along with trying to convince themselves) that their behavior is not a sin. An appeal to natural inclination is not altogether incorrect - for we all have the natural inclination to sin - for we were all born with a sin nature. But that does not mean that we are animals, who have no ability to sense right and wrong and who have no ability for self-control. (See Acts 24:24-25) So is this issue complex? Yes it is, but so are many types of sinful behavior, but it remains sinful behavior, none the less.

[Athanasius]

But Athanasius, did you not post the following earlier?

Unless I misunderstood it does appear to me that you were in this post proposing an "excuse" for this sin. (And perhaps this excuse is itself a lie?) So, is it not possible, and actually highly likely, that most such claims of being born the wrong sex, are little more than an excuse for the behavior? (i.e., What I do is not my fault so it can't be wrong; I was born to do it.) I think the gay/lesbian community wants the rest of the world to buy into this excuse (lie) so that their behavior will be considered just a normal part of their nature and not in any way sinful or wrong. (Not only do they approve of their own behavior, but they want everyone else to approve of it as well. And by approve, I mean they don't want it to be labled sin. Romans 1:32 would kind of fit here.)

I'm really not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I was trying to justify sin. All I am pointing out is that a person telling a lie isn't analogous to a person struggling with same sex attraction / gender dysphoria. That is, the act of telling a lie is quite a different experience from feelings of same sex attraction, gender dysphoria, or the eventual acknowledgement such a person has to make, to themselves, that this is something they struggle with.

And as far as this being a complex issue, isn't this the case for all sin (we were born to do it)? Each person is going to have problems in different areas: some with anger, some with lust, some with greed, some in sexual areas, some with theft, some with adultry, etc. Sin (a departure from the design of God) is a part of each person's makeup, but sin can and should be resisted. Each of us has areas where we can be tempted, but to excuse any of these areas is to deny the truth.

Not really, no. Again, telling a lie is a very different thing than admitting - again, often to oneself before anyone else - that one struggles with same sex attraction / gender dysphoria, etc. Often people who struggle with the latter have deep psychological issues that need to be worked through.

I agree that not all sins are equal, but all sins are sin. I think the realities here are that a group of people (the Gay-Lesbian-Transvestite-Bisexual community) don't want their behavior to be labeled as sinful, so they want to try to convince us (along with trying to convince themselves) that their behavior is not a sin. An appeal to natural inclination is not altogether incorrect - for we all have the natural inclination to sin - for we were all born with a sin nature. But that does not mean that we are animals, who have no ability to sense right and wrong and who have no ability for self-control. (See Acts 24:24-25) So is this issue complex? Yes it is, but so are many types of sinful behavior, but it remains sinful behavior, none the less.

You missed this part: "There are, for example, people who don't 'suppress knowledge of God' - that is, they are Christians - who struggle with same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria, etc. It certainly isn't, in their situations, a matter of trying to come up with excuses to sin." I'm not talking about the LBGT community, and if you've read my posts, I don't know why you are either.

[Bandit]

I'm really not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that I was trying to justify sin. All I am pointing out is that a person telling a lie isn't analogous to a person struggling with same sex attraction / gender dysphoria. That is, the act of telling a lie is quite a different experience from feelings of same sex attraction, gender dysphoria, or the eventual acknowledgement such a person has to make, to themselves, that this is something they struggle with.

I'm sorry if I misread your intent. Your attempt to view sexual sin as significantly different than lying threw me off.

Not really, no. Again, telling a lie is a very different thing than admitting - again, often to oneself before anyone else - that one struggles with same sex attraction / gender dysphoria, etc. Often people who struggle with the latter have deep psychological issues that need to be worked through.

But Athanasius, have you ever been around a person with chronic lying issues, or chronic anger issues, etc? Such persons can have just as deep psychological involvement as any homosexual - if not more so. This is why I am confused by your attempt to imply a significance difference in potential depth of psychological involvement: all these persons can have significant issues.

You missed this part: "There are, for example, people who don't 'suppress knowledge of God' - that is, they are Christians - who struggle with same-sex attraction, gender dysphoria, etc. It certainly isn't, in their situations, a matter of trying to come up with excuses to sin." I'm not talking about the LBGT community, and if you've read my posts, I don't know why you are either.

I don't think I missed this part, but just misread your intent (as explained above). Yes, a Christian can (and in fact many do) struggle with various types of temptation - including homosexual temptations. But when such persons decide to live in and excuse such a lifestyle, then they are actively suppressing the truth. And there are portions of the "church" which condone homosexual lifestyles. This is their attempt to "be Christian" while at the same time living (or condoning) a sinful lifestyle. So do Christians struggle with sin? Yes. But can a person live a sinful lifestyle and remain a Christian? Absolutely not.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. [1 Cor. 6:9-11]

[Athanasius]

I'm sorry if I misread your intent. Your attempt to view sexual sin as significantly different than lying threw me off.

I'm not talking 'merely' about sexual sin -- I'm talking specifically about homosexuality / gender dysphoria.

But Athanasius, have you ever been around a person with chronic lying issues, or chronic anger issues, etc? Such persons can have just as deep psychological involvement as any homosexual - if not more so. This is why I am confused by your attempt to imply a significance difference in potential depth of psychological involvement: all these persons can have significant issues.

Then the habitual lier, or the person with life-long anger issues ought to seek out pastoral and psychological help. This doesn't say against against my point though, as these are all extreme situations.

I don't think I missed this part, but just misread your intent (as explained above). Yes, a Christian can (and in fact many do) struggle with various types of temptation - including homosexual temptations. But when such persons decide to live in and excuse such a lifestyle, then they are actively suppressing the truth. And there are portions of the "church" which condone homosexual lifestyles. This is their attempt to "be Christian" while at the same time living (or condoning) a sinful lifestyle. So do Christians struggle with sin? Yes. But can a person live a sinful lifestyle and remain a Christian? Absolutely not.

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. [1 Cor. 6:9-11]

If you now understand what I was saying, then why keep going on about justify sin? It's only detracting from what the conversation is really about.