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Thread: Have a Heart? -- How so?

  1. #16
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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack702 View Post
    I will try.

    A even chain is a series of cause and effect where you start with either a cause or a effect and relate it to its effect or cause.

    For example body, in the chain I assume, is the cause of physicality.

    Where mind is the cause of both physicality and mentality.
    In example coordination is a physical trait that requires effort of the mind and memory is a mental trait that requires effort of the mind.

    Ability stems from physicality and mentality combined. And furthermore these stemming from body,mind and heart.

    Action is stemming from all of the above where ability/limitation and desire/drive are the causes of actions.

    And action is the cause of sensation and emotion which in turn are the cause of reaction.

    Soul could be the cause or the effect of the whole perhaps rather the effect than the cause.

    Soul being the combination of all of these makes it possible to function without focusing on each individual part but rather combining all of these parts into one.
    Makes sense to me. Thanks, Zack. I'm hoping eyelog will chime back in with some scripture...if not, then I will, as time permits.

    W
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    Makes sense to me. Thanks, Zack. I'm hoping eyelog will chime back in with some scripture...if not, then I will, as time permits.

    W
    Here are some verses with both, mind and heart, in them:

    1. 1 Chronicles 12:38
    All these, being men of war who could draw up in battle formation, came to Hebron with a perfect heart to make David king over all Israel; and all the rest also of Israel were of one mind to make David king.

    2. 1 Chronicles 28:9
    "As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a whole heart and a willing mind; for the LORD searches all hearts, and understands every intent of the thoughts If you seek Him, He will let you find Him; but if you forsake Him, He will reject you forever.

    3. Psalm 7:9
    O let the evil of the wicked come to an end, but establish the righteous;For the righteous God tries the hearts and minds.

    4. Psalm 26:2
    Examine me, O LORD, and try me; Test my mind and my heart.

    5. Jeremiah 17:10
    "I, the LORD, search the heart,I test the mind,Even to give to each man according to his ways,According to the results of his deeds.

    6. Jeremiah 20:12
    Yet, O LORD of hosts, You who test the righteous,Who see the mind and the heart;Let me see Your vengeance on them;For to You I have set forth my cause.

    7. Matthew 22:37
    And He said to him, " ' YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOURHEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'

    8. Mark 12:30
    AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'

    9. Luke 10:27
    And he answered, " YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOURHEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

    10. Acts 2:46
    Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,

    11. Romans 8:27
    and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

    12. Philippians 4:7
    6(A)Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by (B)prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

    13. Hebrews 8:10
    " FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAELAFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIRMINDS,AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

    14. Hebrews 10:16
    " THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,AND ON THEIR MINDI WILL WRITE THEM,"He then says,

    15. James 4:8
    Draw near to God and He will draw near to you Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

    16. Revelation 2:23
    'And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

    Either heart and mind are the same thing, or one is a sub-faculty of the other. Or, do you disagree?

    Here's a chart as to OT and NT terms:

    OT NT
    Mankind Adam Anthropos
    Soul Nephesh Psuche
    Spirit Ruwach Pneuma
    Mind Ruwach, Leb Lebab Nous, Dianoia
    Heart L@Bab, Bal, Leb, Lebab Kardia
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  3. #18
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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by logos7 View Post
    Not sure if I understood the question, but if I did, I believe that the human being consist of three parts; the body (flesh), the mind (spirit), and the soul (the heart)


    I believe this because we are told that we wrestle not agains flesh and blood (Ephesians 6:12); and also that at Jesus 2nd Comming our vile bodies shall be change and be fashioned like His glorious body. (Philippians 3:21) And we are to present our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans 12:1).

    While we our told And be renewed in the spirit of your mind. Ephesians 4:23 And of course Romans 12:2 states this same principal.

    While Jesus was in the Garden of Gethesemane, He said His soul was sorrowful unto death (Matthew 22:37-38; 14:33-34).
    Upon entering Jerusalem. Jesus also made this statement, Now is my soul troubled. (John 12:27). I know this doesn't connect the heart and soul but I believe when we look at Jesus statements in John 14:1, 27; that is when He told His disciples let not your heart be troubled, it would easily compared to His soul being trouble.

    And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    I Thessalonians 5:23
    I am impressed with your analysis. If those were the only Scriptures to consider, I would say your view would have to be correct. This is not to say your view is not correct. Other Scripture might further support your conclusion or complicate the matter. I know that many Christians view their spirit as different from their mind. They talk as if one's spirit seems to go deeper than the conscious mind. For example, "I just knew in my spirit that Bob was in trouble." What's that kind of talk all about? If the spirit is the mind, then the person is saying they were conscious in their mind that Bob was in trouble. It seems people are trying to say something a bit deeper and more profound, whether they be correct or wrong. Certainly, they are attempting to report their subjective experience of the difference between their conscious mind and their spirit.

    Well, of course, we need to ultimately resort to Scripture, but it is both interesting and informative to see how contemporary American Christians happen to express these things.

    So far as the heart and soul, we do get an awful lot of Scripture that works as interchangeable between mind and heart as your spirit and mind comparison. I have a post in this thread listing much of it. But, I think your analysis of Jesus being troubled in his soul and the disciples troubled in their hearts is very insightful.

    As I said in the OP, sometimes it is easy to see all these words being used as substitutes for each other. It gets to the point where one may want to throw their hands up and say, it's all just the inner man, and the terms are simply interchangeable, meaning Heart, Soul, spirit, Mind.

    Complicating matters a bit further, we also have a faculty called the conscience, or Suneidesis. Where does that fit in?

    Ultimately, having not yet presented my own view in totality, nor having quoted much scripture yet, I am going to say the following:

    1. The interchangeability in use of these terms needs to be accounted for.
    2. The reason why so many different terms are used needs to be accounted for.
    3. The nuances of the differences between the terms need to be isolated via an exhaustive review of scripture.
    4. One must not be dogmatic about this, either at the outset of such an investigation, nor having studied it carefully.
    5. We must ask the Holy Spirit to guide us and teach us, in all humility. For, insight into this is obviously not something those who do not seek will find.

    Thanks for your great post!
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  4. #19
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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    You asked others to post scripture but didn't yourself, so I asked. Agree "only a fairly exhaustive review of the use of all the terms for the faculties, in terms of how they are used in context, can reveal a more complete understanding of what the Bible reveals about what we are and how we function", so I thought it strange you asked. I think spirit + body makes a soul just like it says when Adam was created and made. I think the heart and the mind are some combo of spirit + soul.
    Fair enough about scripture.

    Interesting analysis. you are saying the soul is the combo of the spirit and the body. What is the spirit?

    Then, you are saying that heart and mind are the same thing? Not clear to me. But you are saying that spirit and soul together make up heart and mind.

    I'd love to read a more detailed description of your theory. Thanks for the interesting post.
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  5. #20
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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack702 View Post
    I will try.

    A even chain is a series of cause and effect where you start with either a cause or a effect and relate it to its effect or cause.

    For example body, in the chain I assume, is the cause of physicality.

    Where mind is the cause of both physicality and mentality.
    In example coordination is a physical trait that requires effort of the mind and memory is a mental trait that requires effort of the mind.

    Ability stems from physicality and mentality combined. And furthermore these stemming from body,mind and heart.

    Action is stemming from all of the above where ability/limitation and desire/drive are the causes of actions.

    And action is the cause of sensation and emotion which in turn are the cause of reaction.

    Soul could be the cause or the effect of the whole perhaps rather the effect than the cause.

    Soul being the combination of all of these makes it possible to function without focusing on each individual part but rather combining all of these parts into one.
    INteresting! I wonder how you would explain all of the various faculties I listed in the OP, as welll as the conscience. what are they, are they identical, how are they different, and how do they all interact?

    you've come a long way toward describing this causal chain. very cool. Now, I'd love to see how you work with the rest of the terms. Thanks for this insightful post!
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colight View Post
    I would rather have doctrine than a heart..

    Jeremiah 17:9

    9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    I get you!

    Of course, the question is, what is the correct doctrine of the heart, soul, mind, spirit, conscience and body?

    Hope you will add some insight into this discussion. Thanks for the input!
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

  7. #22
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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    Fair enough about scripture.

    Interesting analysis. you are saying the soul is the combo of the spirit and the body. What is the spirit?

    Then, you are saying that heart and mind are the same thing? Not clear to me. But you are saying that spirit and soul together make up heart and mind.

    I'd love to read a more detailed description of your theory. Thanks for the interesting post.
    Genesis answers this question. When God blew His breath (a spirit) into the body of earth He had formed, the mixture of the two became a living soul.
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    Genesis answers this question. When God blew His breath (a spirit) into the body of earth He had formed, the mixture of the two became a living soul.
    Yes, that's a good clarification. Of course, what a human spirit is, as it functions, is another matter. That verse doesn't tell us that exactly, and it surely does not say it is equated with the mind or any other thing in particular.

    But i like the clarification that it takes spirit and body to make a living soul. Jesus says we should fear those who can throw us, body and soul into hell.

    Matthew 10:28
    Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    This implies to me that a body and a soul may be two different things. A physically living soul is one with a body and a soul without a body is not alive, sort of like this cryptic description by Solomon in Ecclesiastes:

    Ecclesiastes 12:5-7
    5 ... For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street. 6 Remember Him before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed; 7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
    From this, we might conclude that the spirit and soul are the same thing breathed into the dust of the earth to form a living soul?

    So, are the soul and the spirit the same thing? If so, does Scripture bear it out that the two operate in exactly the same way?

    We have the famous Hebrews passage:

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
    It is possible this is saying that spirit and soul are two different things, but it could also mean that 'soul' is refering to the living soul with the body and the spirit is refering to the soul without the body, and the Word divides the two. That make any sense? And how, then, do the "thoughts and intentions of the heart" come in, then? Is the heart = to living soul = mind? Or is the heart = spirit = mind?

    Here's the other verses I already quoted:

    Job 7:11
    “Therefore I will not restrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit, I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
    Isaiah 26:9
    At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within me seeks You diligently; For when the earth experiences Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
    1 Corinthians 15:45
    So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
    1 Thessalonians 5:23
    Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    The first three might tend to make us think the soul and spirit are the same thing, and that they are mental in function, i.e., = the mind.

    The last one, again, implies there may be a difference between spirit and soul, like the Heb 4 passage. But, again, we must consult the balance of Scripture. On a subject like this one, it is imprudent to go off half-cocked by a Ge cite, a Hebrews and a Thes, and think we know it all. [I don't mean anyone here in this thread has done so, at all, but that we do see people rely on these Scriptures and think that settles it.] This is especially true where we are very much in need of not just identifying certain words which describe WHAT we are. For our greater need is to understand HOW we Function. Some would say, who cares. Some would say, we need to just leave that up to God. Let us rest in Him, submit and surrender, and just go where the Spirit leads. (of course, who here is able to follow the Spirit wherever He leads consistently and completely, as Jesus did? Yet, we would admit that we can get better at doing so. Why is that possible? How is that possible? To what extent does it depend on our efforts, as exerted through the faculties He has given us?

    After all, to what extent are we responsible for our heart, mind, spirit and soul's condition? Is it enough to say we are positionally sanctified? Is it enough to have our minds renewed by the Word? Is it enough to purify our bodies? Is it enough to learn to possess our bodies in sanctification and holiness? If so, what do these things mean, and HOW do you do them? The implications of understanding how our faculties operate individually and collectively are huge.

    For, I believe that we are given great responsibility to pursue the Lord, pursue sanctification, pursue the likeness of Christ, putting off the old self and putting on the new, in a permanent way.

    Indeed, it is the condition of the heart which controls how we will speak and act (mt 12:34;15:18, Luke 6:45), based on what we have stored up there, and if we are controlling what we say, for example, we are then in control of our whole body, or so James would have it. Ja 3:2. Then, he uses the same heart imagery Jesus does, associated with fig trees and the type of fruit they produce. Ja 3:12. And James admonishes that we ought not to have both blessing and cursing from teh same mouth. Well, if we can't bridle the tongue, as he argues, then how are we to do it? Obviously by having a change of heart, just as Jesus implies by saying what we have stored up there overflows into our words and actions.

    But what we put into our heart is not the only thing that molds it. It is one thing to say God directs and molds our practical sanctification process. It is another to say we have a responsiblity to react to that process of trial, temptations and afflictions with faith. But what is the seat of our faith? What faculty executes saving faith, and the faith that moves mountains? How does that work? How can we be accountable for our level of faith?

    One man says he believes, but help my unbelief. In what faculty is he believing, and in what faculty is he requesting help with greater belief?

    These questions are important because the answers help us to see what part is God's and what part is ours and what is expected of us, so we won't be swinging our arms or running our legs without aim as we run the race set out before us.

    Everyone has attitudes towards these issues. They impress upon us the need to not try to do things in our own strength, even as Jesus says the greatest commandment is to love the Lord with all our Kardia, psuche, dianoia and STRENGTH. Whose strength? Whose heart, soul and understanding? OURS.

    They say lay it all down and surrender. Submit.

    Yes. We must. But then we are to take up what the Lord has given us, not hiding it under a bushel or burying it, but making use of it to maximize the return on God's investment in us. How can we do that if we don't even know what He has given us and how we are to use it? Worse yet, how are we to please the master upon his return if we have not loved him with all our heart, soul, understanding and strength?

    Is that just doing good works? Yes. Is it just submitting to Him and giving Him praise and worship? Yes. Is it also particpating proactively in our character reformation (practical sanctification)? Absolutely. Is that character to change only via renewal and washing with the Word, being transformed by the renewing of our minds? Yes. Is it also learning how to wield the shield, the armor and the sword of the Spirit? Yes. Is it walking by faith in the promises of God? Yes. Is it walking in the Spirit? Yes. Is it putting to death the misdeeds of the body through the Spirit? Yes. Is it persevering, gaining endurance and character and confirmed hopes? Absolutely.

    But, at the end of the day, you and I must ask, HOW?

    Glib answers won't do it. Dismissive answers, or limiting answers won't do it. The whole counsel of God must do it. "each of [us are expected to ] know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor". 1 Thessalonians 4:4. How do we come to know how? We must learn. But does Scripture just say how to learn? Or, must we seek His wisdom and understanding to know how?

    It is one thing to know what He commands: Love others, overcome evil with good, bless and do not curse, forgive, no sexual immorality, and on down the line. It is another to know how to go about getting to "know how to possess [one's] own vessel in sanctification and honor." It is another thing to be able to overcome in every situation. That "being able" is more than knowledge of what is good and evil. It is more than submitting ourselves to God. It is more than hoping on His promises. It is even more than walking in the Spirit moment to moment. It is learning how to be an overcomer.

    An overcomer, having prayed and prepared everything (armor, shield and sword), stands. He perseveres through suffering. He makes adjustments. He reassesses His performance and comes back at it, more prepared than the last time, ready to 'take on' or fight against pain, suffering, affliction, disease, spiritual oppression, human oppression, trials of all kinds, and temptations of every kind.

    That is what our example, Jesus Christ, did. Did He do it by His innate deity? No. He shed that power, that He might be one of us as an "example" to us. Yet, He did renew His Mind (nous, dianoia) with the Word. He did believe on the promises of God in His Heart (kardia), and He did rely on them with all His strength as He endured the suffering that comes with seeking to live a righteous life in Christ Jesus. He was grieved in His Soul (psuche) MT 26:38, He entrusted His spirit (pneuma) to the Father, fully. Luke 23:46. He was gentle and humble in heart (kardia) Mt 11;29. He told us we must forgive from the heart. He said we must be "setting your mind (nous) on God’s interests, [not] man’s.” Mark 8:33. And Jesus gave up His body to be beaten and killed. Indeed, everytime He flawlessly obeyed the Father, He was sacrificing. He was feeling the pain, the suffering in His body, the perseverance in the face of the affliction, temptation and trial (fasting in the desert, e.g.), but it got easier to do what He did, as His character grew. But then came the next challenge, which He could not have faced but for His advancement through every type of temptation which is common to mankind. Hebrews 2:17-18; 5:8.

    So, we must delve deeply into how Jesus did these things, and not glibly say it was all because He was God; it was all by the Spirit's power alone. It was all by submitting to the Father alone. It was all by knowing the Word alone. It was all by His knowing faith. It was all by His inherent, innate character as God.

    No. Jesus learned obedience by what He suffered.

    Hebrews 5:8
    Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

    Never forget that. If He is our example who we must follow and imitate, then we too must learn perfect obedience by what we suffer, or do you think that saying the word, grace, fifty times and accusing me of being a legalist and spitting in the face of Christ for not accepting His atoning work will relieve you of the DUTY to become like Jesus by diligent efforts like Peter describes in 2 Peter 1:5-

    For the word for he "Learned" at Hebrews 5:8 is Manthano, which is an action word, a verb. It means to receive instruction, to become educated and to learn, which means to acquire knowledge, experience, wisdom and know how. To that we are called, that we would not be spiritually ignorant sitting ducks who have made nothing of all we have been handed and have gained on being regenerated, reborn, and made a part of the household and kingdom of God. We have the riches and keys of the kingdom, but we must USE them. To wield them for the kingdom, we must LEARN obedience, just as Jesus had to, all the way to the Cross. For Jesus is not our only example. We have Paul, who "learned" contentment in every situation. Phillipians 4:11. If Paul could do it, we can. If Paul urges us to imitate Him as He imitated Christ, then we do are obliged to do it.

    And so, as we see suffering in our own lives, and that suffering is what is before us if we should seek to be sanctified and attain to the stature ofthe fullness of Christ, then we must learn all we can about how we are constitituted and how Jesus used His faculties to attain to His own fullness by the time He went to the Cross, fully ready, though the final touches were put on just hours before, in the Garden of Gethsemane, as He cried out and prayed that the cup might pass Him by, if it were possible, though the Father's will, not His.

    Yes, coming to understand our anthropology is very important to imitating Christ, and it is not a spectator sport, any more than imitating HIm is, and no more than getting saved is, and no more than getting progressively, practically sanctified is.

    Amen. Praise the Lord.
    His and Yours,

    Eyelog

    The secret things belong to the Lord our God,
    but the things
    revealed belong to us
    and to our sons forever,
    that we may observe all the words of this law.
    -- Deuteronomy 29:29

    Open my eyes, that I may behold
    Wonderful things from Your law.
    -- Psalm 119:18

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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    The second chapter in Genesis is the first introduction of these concepts to man in our bibles, so for me anyway: if my definition even though brought by scripture does not fit with it's first introduction to us in our bibles, then my definition is incorrect.

    Would anyone posting on this thread have the understanding to show that way of my thinking is incorrect ?

    Gen 2:7 And the LORD 3068 God 430 formed 3335 man 120 [of] the dust 6083 of 4480 the dust 127, and breathed 5301 into his nostrils 639 the breath 5397 of life 2416; and man 120 became a living 2416 soul 5315.
    I see the dust-flesh-bodies as facilities for the soul.
    And the breath of life-spirit as the consciousness of the the soul.

    So, I see our soul as operating or motivated to operate led by either the dust-flesh-bodies desires, or our soul is operating or motivated to operate led by the God's breath-spirits desires.

    Again:
    Would anyone posting on this thread have the understanding to show that way of my thinking as incorrect ?



    God bless.
    Last edited by MoreMercy; May 12th 2012 at 09:11 AM. Reason: clarifying additions and retractions

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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    You see us responding to the world either through what belongs to the flesh (body) or through what belongs to God's Spirit?

    Do u feel adam was created with the holy spirit indwelling him as he indwells the believer?

    Is there a human spirit which is given us and adam byGod which is distinct from the HS?

    Jesus is the second Adam who became a life giving Spirit. What was the first Adam in contarst , per Paul?

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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eyelog View Post
    You see us responding to the world either through what belongs to the flesh (body) or through what belongs to God's Spirit?

    Do u feel adam was created with the holy spirit indwelling him as he indwells the believer?
    If your post is directed at me: yes, but only originally, after he/Adam did eat of the no, no tree. Then I believe at that point he sold his birth-right(so to speak) and rejected the spirit of obedience in himself toward God His Creator, sold that spirit(so to speak) for a spirit that is rebellious toward God His Creator, sold it his flesh's selfish pleasure.
    ...kind of like Esau did sell his birth-right for only just a single day of his bellies selfish pleasure.

    But, and this is one big but:
    Christ Jesus came as promised though Eve's seed to restore that original spirit of obedience toward God, and after Christ Jesus work done on the earth (death on the cross and resurrection into a glorified body) after that work done and His ascension back to His Father God our Creator, then God's Holy Spirit was send down to comfort, guide and amplify life and truth to those who accept and admit Christ Jesus was the promised savior, but also not only confess and admit that but confess that we do sin and then also repent of that sin we confessed and keep following Christ Jesus's teachings and living examples recorded for us in our bibles, keep following and trusting in Him til our last breath or until He returns which ever comes first.



    God bless.

  12. #27
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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Abba blew the breath of life into Adam's carcass...the text doesn't designate that spirit as the Holy Spirit of God. If Adam and Eve had the Holy Spirit, then the Tree of Life, a symbol of Christ, would have been unneeded, yes?

    W
    Last edited by Watchman; May 12th 2012 at 05:00 PM. Reason: tpyo correction
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  13. #28
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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    I'm pressed for time, but will throw this out for consideration. Will provide scriptural support later, as time permits. In my understanding, spirit + body = soul. Each of the components, as well as the mixture of them, have their own faculties. Those of the spirit include intuition (direct knowledge), communion (fellowship, worship), and conscience (judging), while faculties of the soul include mind (intellect, rationality), emotions (feelings, desires), and will (volition, power to choose). We all know the main faculties of the body are sight, hearing, taste, smell, and touch.

    The body is our means of contact with the visible, physical world. The spirit is our point of contact with the invisible, spiritual realm, and the soul stands between the two. Another way of stating this could be that the body is our means of world-consciousness, the spirit is our means of God-consciousness, and the soul is our means of self-consciousness. More later.

    blessings,

    Watchman
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

  14. #29
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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    I'm pressed for time, but will throw this out for consideration. Will provide scriptural support later, as time permits. In my understanding, spirit + body = soul. Each of the components, as well as the mixture of them, have their own faculties. Those of the spirit include intuition (direct knowledge), communion (fellowship, worship), and conscience (judging), while faculties of the soul include mind (intellect, rationality), emotions (feelings, desires), and will (volition, power to choose). We all know the main faculties of the body are sight, hearing, taste, smell, and touch.

    The body is our means of contact with the visible, physical world. The spirit is our point of contact with the invisible, spiritual realm, and the soul stands between the two. Another way of stating this could be that the body is our means of world-consciousness, the spirit is our means of God-consciousness, and the soul is our means of self-consciousness. More later.

    blessings,

    Watchman
    It looks to me that as of now, you go way-beyond what God's word says:

    Gen 2:7
    And the LORD God formed man 120 [of] the dust 6083 of the ground 127, and breathed 5301 into his nostrils the breath 5397 of life 2416; and man became a living 2416 soul 5315.

  15. #30
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    Re: Have a Heart? -- How so?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoreMercy View Post
    It looks to me that as of now, you go way-beyond what God's word says:

    Gen 2:7
    And the LORD God formed man 120 [of] the dust 6083 of the ground 127, and breathed 5301 into his nostrils the breath 5397 of life 2416; and man became a living 2416 soul 5315.
    Well, we do find Scripture treating all the various faculties listed in the OP, plus the conscience. I think Watch is attempting to align them in a manner consistent with their use in Scripture, though he has not yet had time to lay out all his Scripture.

    I did want to comment that this passage is critical:

    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a [b] type of Him who was to come.

    15 But [c]the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
    Romans 5:13-15

    In some sense, all of mankind died when Adam sinned, but it was not an immediate physical death, though it likely ultimately included physical death. What was immediate was, as you have said, a death to the Spirit of God, our access to it and participation in it. If we were indwelt by His Spirit, the Spirit departed us. That condition remained until people were saved by faith in the Promise, which was realized in Christ Jesus' payment of the sin penalty.

    I conclude that we were created indwelt by the Spirit, or at least alive to the Spirit of God, and we have a separate physical life giving spirit in us, part of the breath of God which keeps our dusty bodies alive. So, we are spirit and body, and the combo of the two makes us a physically living soul. Take away the body by separating the spirit from the body, and we are a physically dead soul/spirit, but we are immortal -- eternally destined to hell.

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