Tell me , what "unique claims" did Jesus make "as the God of the Old Testament" ? This was to be for Bandit.Originally Posted by LookingUp
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Tell me , what "unique claims" did Jesus make "as the God of the Old Testament" ? This was to be for Bandit.
Posting Freak
Like I said, if you look into the mirror, can I say, “Hey, there’s guestman!” or not? I realize this is an imperfect analogy, but we can see that although it’s a different substance in the mirror, it’s the same identity. That’s the point.
Assisting? Wait a minute, that doesn’t square with Isaiah 44:24. God/Yahweh ALONE created; there was no one assisting Him in creation.Jesus was well aware of family relationships, assisting his Father in creating it (Gen 1:26)…
Third time I’ve asked this:
Is it your understanding that searching of the heart and mind (Jer. 17:10) is a Yahweh-only act? Is there an angel or being who can search minds and hearts?
Posting Freak
All of the below claims are unique to Yahweh and Yahweh alone.
Jesus claims he is THE one who will accomplish the Yahweh-only act of searching hearts and minds. This act is stressed as an act that points to the statement of fact that Yahweh is the only true God (i.e. the one who performs this act IS the only true God).
“I Yahweh search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.” Jeremiah 17:10
And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.’” Revelation 2:18-19, 23
Jesus claims he will carry out the Yahweh-only act of rendering to each man according to his work. This act is stressed as an act that points to the statement of fact that Yahweh is the only true God (i.e. the one who performs this act IS the only true God).
“Once God has spoken; twice have I heard this: that power belongs to God, and that to you, O Lord, belongs steadfast love. For YOU will render to a man according to his work. Psalm 62:11-12
“For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done.” Matthew 16:27
“‘Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done’… He who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely I am coming soon.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!” Revelation 22:12, 20
Jesus claims possession of the Yahweh-only title of “first and last.” This title in Isaiah is given in conjunction with the statement of fact that Yahweh is the only true God (i.e. the one with this title IS the only true God/besides Yahweh there is no god).
“Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.” Isaiah 44:6
“When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.’” Revelation 1:17-18
Yahweh alone is Redeemer and Savior. Yet Jesus is said to be Redeemer and Savior. The act of redeeming mankind eternally is an act that is stressed as an act that points to the statement of fact that Yahweh is the only true God (i.e. the one who performs this act IS the only true God).
“O Israel, hope in Yahweh! For with Yahweh there is steadfast love, and with him is plentiful redemption. And he will redeem Israel from all his iniquities.” Psalm 130:7-8
“‘She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.’ All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: ‘Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel’ (which means, God with us).” Matthew 1:21-23
Posting Freak
Just found this on another thread.
Posting Freak
I know that I've addressed this before in another thread (perhaps not with you though), but LookingUp has it covered.
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At Proverbs 8:22-24, in speaking of wisdom personified in Jesus (1 Cor 1:24), he says: "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water."
At verse 29-31, he now says: "when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."(see Matt 3:17)
Jehovah God alone is rightfully called the Creator.(Ecc 12:1; Isa 40:28; 42:5; 43:1; 45:18; 1 Pet 4:19) Jesus was his "master worker" who assisted him creating all things, for at Colossians 1:16, the apostle Paul wrote that "by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him."
Jehovah God can read hearts and minds, for at Jeremiah 17:10, God says: "I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings." Jesus has the capability to read hearts and discern what is in the mind, for as God's appointed judge, he has know our inner most thoughts and what is in our heart.(John 5:22)
Even a skillful and humble teacher of the Bible recognizes that "the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart."(Heb 4:12) With Jehovah's holy spirit, these can "discern thoughts and intentions of the heart."
Posting Freak
You can’t prove that. You only believe it because it supports your doctrine. That’s one mistake you’re making. The subject of the proverb is made perfectly clear: wisdom. Furthermore, wisdom is personified as a WOMAN. Jesus is not a woman. The writer created a fictional creation story in which wisdom, as an attribute of God, was actually present at creation.
Meanwhile, you didn’t respond to the rest of post #33 or post #34. Isaiah paints a picture for us. How do we know who is the one true God--that besides Yahweh there is no god? We know Him by His Yahweh-only acts. It’s not like we have a photo to refer to. Well, Isaiah provides several ways we can know who this one true God is.
When we see someone who can search minds and hearts (i.e. judge PERFECTLY) in order to render to each man according to his ways, that one IS Yahweh. Who else can do this?! I’m not talking about being discerning through the Holy Spirit, and neither is Jesus speaking of that when he claims, “I AM HE who searches the mind and heart and will give to each of you as your works deserves.”
When we see someone who truly possesses the title, “first and last” we are beholding the one true God. There is only One who can claim that title and His name is Yahweh.
When we see someone who created all things, both visible and invisible, we are beholding the one true God. There is no other Creator besides Yahweh.
When we see someone through whom eternal salvation and redemption are brought, we are beholding the one true God. There is no other Savior and Redeemer.
When we see someone through whom eternal life is given, we are beholding the one true God. There is no other who can offer eternal life but Yahweh alone. He alone is the giver of life for only in Him is life found.
As written above, these “Yahweh-alone is this” statements are applied directly to Jesus. No one gets these statements applied to them other than Yahweh alone. That would defeat the whole purpose of Isaiah’s words! How do you respond to this? (FYI, I added some that are not Isaiah's words but another prophet's, but the question remains).
Lastly, do you deny Isaiah 44:24 that Yahweh alone created?
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Jesus never claimed to be Yahweh or Jehovah. In fact, at the beginning of his ministry, while in a synagogue, he read from Isaiah 61:1, 2, saying: "Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor, he sent me forth to preach a release to the captives and a recovery of sight to the blind, to send the crushed ones away with a release, to preach Jehovah’s acceptable year.”(Luke 4:18, 19)
Furthermore, at John 4, he told the Samaritan woman that he worships Jehovah God, saying: "You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth."(John 4:22-24)
Thus, Jesus said that he, along with other "true worshipers", worships the Father and that Jehovah's spirit was upon him, anointing him, in order to accomplish the Father's assigned task of ' preaching a release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind '.
Some time later, Jesus told the Jews: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality."(John 7:16, 17) If Jesus is God, then what he taught would have been his. However, he told the Jews that what he taught was not his, but "belongs to him that sent me." Jesus even used the Greek word e, meaning "or" to distinguish himself from God.
At Luke 1, the angel Gabriel told Mary that "you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus. This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father."(Luke 1:31, 32) Hence, Jesus was given by Jehovah God "the throne of David" or God's kingdom.
Posting Freak
guestman,
If you can reasonably answer the last two questions of post #37, then I'll respond to how Jesus can be Yahweh and distinct from Yahweh at the same time (i.e. John 1:1).
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The wisdom at Proverbs 8 was "produced", the "earliest of his achievements of long ago." The Hebrew word used there is qanah, meaning, not "possessed" here, but "to erect, i. e. create; by extention, to procure, especially by purchase."(Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible) The same Hebrew word is used at Genesis 4:1, in which Eve said: "I have produced (Hebrew qanah) a man with the aid of Jehovah.” ("I have gotten a man from the Lord", King James Bible)
Did God have to "create" his own wisdom ? Has not his wisdom always been intrinsically his, a quality inherently his. He has always been wise, with his wisdom having no beginning. It was not something that was produced or created. On the other hand, the wisdom spoken of at Proverbs 8 was produced, and is referred to as "the earliest of (God's) achievements of long ago." This fits Jesus, for the apostle Paul wrote that "Christ (is) the power of God and the wisdom of God."(1 Cor 1:24) At Genesis 1:26, Jesus was involved in the creation of man, with Jehovah God telling him: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness."
At Mark 14:27, it says: "And Jesus said to them concerning himself: “You will all be stumbled, because it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered about.’" Jesus was quoting from the Zechariah 13:7, whereby God says: "O sword, awake against my shepherd, even against the able-bodied man who is my associate,” is the utterance of Jehovah of armies. “Strike the shepherd, and let those of the flock be scattered; and I shall certainly turn my hand back upon those who are insignificant.” Hence, Jesus is Jehovah's "associate", his "shepherd", his "master worker".
The apostle John said that Jesus is "in the bosom [position] with the Father ."(John 1:18) Thence, Jesus is God's wisdom, being so close with his Father that he alone is spoken of as "in the bosom with the Father" and told the Jews that "I and the Father are one."(John 10:30) In addition, Proverbs 8:31, that says that "the things I was fond of were with the sons of men", remarkably fits the origin and activities of Jesus whose fondness for mankind even led to his dying as a ransom sacrifice.(1*Tim. 2:5,*6; John 3:16)
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I have already answered the questions sufficiently enough for reasonable people to see that Jesus is not God. At this point, there is no need to continue.
Posting Freak
Maybe it will be easier for you if I ask you one question at a time. Do you deny Isaiah 44:24 that Yahweh alone created?
Posting Freak
“In wisdom you have made them all” (Psalm 104:24). The fact that wisdom was used by God to create every created thing shows that wisdom itself is not created since it existed before creation.
“For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding” (Proverbs 2:6). Yahweh produced wisdom from out of His own mouth, which shows that wisdom wasn’t created from nothing since it existed with(in) Yahweh. Yahweh always had wisdom as an attribute which He then produced (or brought forth) in order to create.
Proverbs is using figurative language to describe how Yahweh used His own eternal attribute of wisdom to create all things. All things were created through His wisdom. Thus, wisdom cannot be created. So, even if the text is referring to Jesus, this would only prove that Jesus was not created.
Do you deny Isaiah 44:24 that Yahweh alone created?
Posting Freak
guestman, you did not answer posts 33 or 34, and you've not really supplied anything for a reasonable person to see that Jesus is not God. You quoted LookingUp's post 33 in your post 38, but you did not address anything actually contained in post 33! Doing a cut & paste and then avoiding the contents (in the hope that most persons won't notice your failure to address the actual content) seems to be your best game. Please, don't expect "resonable" people to fall for this refusal to address questions head-on.
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Jesus did not say the words at Jeremiah 17:10, but rather it says: "I, Jehovah, am searching the heart, examining the kidneys, even to give to each one according to his ways, according to the fruitage of his dealings." Thus, Jehovah God said that he is the One "searching the heart.....to give to each one according to his ways."
Trying to tie Revelation 2:18, 19, 23 with this does not prove that Jesus is Jehovah or God. For example, at John 5, Jesus said that "the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed (Greek dedoken, [from didomi] meaning "to grant, give to one asking, let have", Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pg 145) all the judging to the Son."(John 5:22) Hence, Jehovah God has committed (or given) to Jesus all judging of mankind. If Jesus were God, then no one could "give" him any authority, for as God Almighty (Hebrew ’El Shad·dai´ as in Gen 17:1), he would already have all authority.
Hence, Jesus, by having the judging of all mankind committed to him by his Father, Jehovah God, he then is the one who is "given" the responsibility by Jehovah to be the one "who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds."(Rev 2:23) Jesus established that he was given such authority by his Father: "All authority has been given (Greek edothe, a form of didomi) me in heaven and on the earth."(Matt 28:18)
He is the one who determines who will receive a resurrection or not, and then judge these for everlasting life or everlasting death, for Jesus further said: "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment. I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear (from the Father), I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me."(John 5:28-30) Jesus therefore judges according to his Father's "will", not his own.
Citing Psalms 62:11, 12, Matthew 16:27, Revelation 22:12, 20 does not say that Jesus is God, nor alter or change the fact that Jesus has been appointed judge, to render righteous judgment, for the apostle Paul said to the Greeks: "God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent. Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”(Acts 17:30, 31) Thence, Jesus has been "given" or committed to him "all authority" by his Father, Jehovah God, judging "the inhabited earth in righteousness".
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