Trinity or not: How does it matter?

[Silas]

We all realize the Trinity .v. Non- Trinity will always be one of the biggest debates among people. But God gave us the gift of free will.. and the ability to think and make our own decisions.
Which ever way each one of us chooses to believe.. In the end, I wonder if it will matter to HIM.??

There seem to be on this forum some freedom rarely found on most other Christian forums regarding the belief of the diety of Jesus Christ our Saviour, and going though the last few threads I have found this above quoted statement, which prompted this my thread here.

Of course I have my own belief on the matter, which I cherish very close to my heart, and indeed my spirit, but i wish not to make this thread a belief statement or a debate regarding the validity of the trinity, but rather wish it to be centered on the following questions:

1- As quoted, how do you think it Matters to God if you believe or not in the trinity?
2- Will it cost you your salvation either way?
3- How has your belief changed your worship and your walk with Christ?

I think you get the sense of what I am trying to ask, because I could here have more than these 3 questions, and I encourage you to answer the unasked
Just please, for this one, please understand I am not asking for a debate on the validity of your belief, just your feelings..... and God's.

I am specifically asking these to those Christians of the nontrinitarian communions.

Many many thanks

[Bandit]

Hello Silas,

You have some good questions. Looking at the first question, let’s turn it around a bit. Do you think one concept or view of God is just as good as another concept or view? Let’s say we consider two different concepts/views of God. Would it be fair to say that one is likely to be more accurate than the other? And if so, wouldn’t you rather prefer to have the more correct concept/view?

Another thing to think about, in relation to your first question, is let’s say God has revealed certain truths about Himself; but let’s say that someone intentionally refuses to accept some of those truths, then at what point can it be said that the person has rejected God? (Or has perhaps molded the revealed God into one which he is more willing to accept?) So who defines God anyway? If God is a purely human construct, then “god” can be whoever, whatever, or however we choose, and we can all choose differently and be equally correct. But if God exists (I AM that I AM), then God defines Himself, and we should strive to understand as much as we can about what God has revealed of Himself. It should no longer be a choice of picking and choosing which parts of Him we are willing to accept, but rather it should be a striving to understand (or believe by faith) all that He has revealed. Would not you agree?

So, if we agree this far, then the answer to your first question should be that we should strive to understand (or at least believe by faith) all that God has revealed of Himself. And we must then ask the following question: at what point in one’s refusal to accept what was revealed does that rejection turn into a rejection (either full or partial) of God Himself? (I would really like for you to try to address this question.)

As for your 2nd question, one walks a slippery slope, as the saying goes, when one begins asking how much of God’s revelation can one refuse to accept while still being acceptable by God. That is a question I can’t fully answer, but I do know that there is a hierarchy of knowledge about God, and the pinnacle in Christian thought is that Jesus is God Most High. I seriously doubt that one can be rightly called “Christian” without accepting this revealed truth. As for one’s salvation, that is for God to decide; but then again, how much of the One True God can one reject or redefine before one is no longer following the One True God? I am sure that there are those who out of ignorance do not accept all of God’s revelation of Himself, and these I am sure will be forgiven when Jesus reveals Himself as “LORD of Lords and KING of Kings” (as long as they repent and accept what they formerly denied), but the question does remain about those who have repeatedly been called to this truth (that Jesus is the "LORD of Lords and KING of Kings" by the Holy Spirit) but who have continually refused to accept it? At some point I think that those who continually harden their heart to such a central Christian truth as Jesus’ deity become hardened in other areas as well. This has been my experience with such persons. Those who do not accept Jesus as God become blind in many other spiritual areas. It is as if the Holy Spirit says that unless and until you accept this fundamental truth, you can go no further. Such hardened persons may continue to claim that they are Christian, and may continue to attend some kind of church, but they have at some point become blind and self-deceived.

As to your 3rd question, there can be no denial that viewing Jesus as God Most High changes one’s walk with Him. Unless you know Him as God Most High, you are following a mere man. So some man died for you on a cross 2000 years ago… big deal. But if God Himself came and died for you… VERY BIG DEAL!

[allyc33]

Hi Silas

Here are my personal thoughts:

#1 Yes, I think it matters, because you are dealing with two very different scenerios. An easy way to explain my answer to this question would be....If you invented something with 2 other people it would be ok to share credit. However, if you were sole creator of an invention but not getting exclusive or at least, most of the credit for it... would it matter to you...?

#2 This question is really not for anyone to answer. It is not anyones place to tell someone he or she will lose salvation based on what they believe. God is patient, loving and merciful. He understands we are imperfect. He tells us to search for Him....and I dont think it was suppose to be neccessarily easy, but thats my thought... If you are making a sincere effort in knowing Him he already knows and appreciates it. The Bible says that HE looks into each and every one of our hearts.

#3 My personal belief has not changed. Even as a kid, when I heard that Jesus would sit at the right hand of God in my mind, I did not see ONE ... I saw TWO. It was later I learned and tried to understand the belief of The Trinity.. it was awful confusing to me and did not make sense. It was no wonder that it was called "the Mystery of the Christian faith " .. (my personal feelings)

I question a lot of things, not just religion.... I suppose it is just in my nature. So when I had questions, I began to read, study and learn.. I started from the beginining. And when I say the beginning I do not mean just with Genesis.... I started with the History of Religion and referenced back to the Bible.

Nobody can or will usually argue HISTORY. So start your search there. I found a lot of answers within the History Books.... It was tedious and at times draining but incredibly interesting.. and quite an eye opener for me. If you ever choose to try this, remember to continue to use your Bible and Pray for God to help and guide you.

Gods word tells us (1Thessalonians 5:20-21) do not despise prophetic utterances But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

You may want to keep this in mind as well, Jesus said his 'Father hid things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.'
Children ask questions all the time... It is good to ask questions, it humbles us....nobody knows ALL the answers.


Allyson

[Beckrl]

1- As quoted, how do you think it Matters to God if you believe or not in the trinity?

First I'm not big on debating the topic of the trinity, but to me it matters not if one believes or don't believe in the trinity.

2- Will it cost you your salvation either way?

I think not! But in the early church it might have cost you your life. I'm with Sir Isaac Newton in that he keep his views to himself about the trinity until after his death it became public.

3- How has your belief changed your worship and your walk with Christ?

From classifing Jesus as God.

[LookingUp]

1- As quoted, how do you think it Matters to God if you believe or not in the trinity?

Well, we see God working in the lives of people who believe in the trinity and we see God working in the lives of people who don’t believe in the trinity. We see miracles in the lives of both and spiritual growth in the lives of both. On some level, it probably matters, but God works with those whose hearts seek Him, even if their doctrines aren’t perfectly worked out.

2- Will it cost you your salvation either way?

Our salvation does not rest in our flawed doctrines.

3- How has your belief changed your worship and your walk with Christ?

It hasn’t. I worshiped and walked with God the same as I did when I believed the trinity to be accurate.

[Revmitchell]

There seem to be on this forum some freedom rarely found on most other Christian forums regarding the belief of the diety of Jesus Christ our Saviour, and going though the last few threads I have found this above quoted statement, which prompted this my thread here.

Of course I have my own belief on the matter, which I cherish very close to my heart, and indeed my spirit, but i wish not to make this thread a belief statement or a debate regarding the validity of the trinity, but rather wish it to be centered on the following questions:

1- As quoted, how do you think it Matters to God if you believe or not in the trinity?
2- Will it cost you your salvation either way?
3- How has your belief changed your worship and your walk with Christ?

I think you get the sense of what I am trying to ask, because I could here have more than these 3 questions, and I encourage you to answer the unasked
Just please, for this one, please understand I am not asking for a debate on the validity of your belief, just your feelings..... and God's.

I am specifically asking these to those Christians of the nontrinitarian communions.

Many many thanks

Sure it does. If you reject the Trinity then you reject the true God.

[Silas]

Revmitchell: please justify?

[Sojourner55]

Sure it does. If you reject the Trinity then you reject the true God.

The above statement is patently false, and quite frankly, is the kind of mentality that once led to the execution of Christians who simply questioned the doctrine of the Trinity. We can no more comprehend the infinite nature of God with our finite minds than we can fit the universe into a thimble. Even early post-Apostolic Christians debated the nature of Jesus, seeking to understand the manifestation of God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit--without straying from the path of monotheism. The doctrine of the Trinity exists today essentially as it did 1700 years ago--the best attempt to formulate and define the nature of God--an endeavor for which our minds are woefully inadequate.

Believing or not believing in any non-Salvation doctrine is not important in our walk with God. What is important is believing in the truth of God's manifestation of Himself in the sinless nature of His Son. For it is in Jesus that one finds the only path to God; and only in Jesus will we find our fullest and most accurate understanding of God:

He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. (John 6:46)

I and the Father are one. (John 10:30)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.(John 1:18)

Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation, (Col 1:15)

For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. (Col 2:9)

For God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, no longer counting people's sins against them. And he gave us this wonderful message of reconciliation.(2 Cor 5:19)

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Heb 1:3)

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

1- As quoted, how do you think it Matters to God if you believe or not in the trinity?
2- Will it cost you your salvation either way?
3- How has your belief changed your worship and your walk with Christ?

1- It matters. I was lost as a Trinitarian. I am now saved by the precious shed blood of Jesus Christ.
2- It can, but is not solely dependent upon doctrine.
3- From being lost and without communion as a Trinitarian to having a personal relationship by knowing in whom i have believed.

Greater love hath no man than this... laying down one's life (psuche) for his friends. If God is three "persons", He didn't lay down His own soul-life (psuche) for us.

[David Taylor]

1- It matters. I was lost as a Trinitarian. I am now saved by the precious shed blood of Jesus Christ.
2- It can, but is not solely dependent upon doctrine.
3- From being lost and without communion as a Trinitarian to having a personal relationship by knowing in whom i have believed.

Greater love hath no man than this... laying down one's life (psuche) for his friends. If God is three "persons", He didn't lay down His own soul-life (psuche) for us.

Sure He did. Because Jesus had 'two' lives.

The eternal one (Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.)
and
The additional one He took up at Bethlehem (Hebrews 2:16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto his brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. and Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man)

[David Taylor]

Trinity also matters; because usually; (not always PPS), most non-trinitarians often to throw the eternal deity and divinity of Jesus under the bus, and do as they did in Romans 1:22 and "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man" by making their jesus into a created being himself; far different that the eternal Jesus of the Bible who is eternal YHWH, that Trinitarians uphold.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Sure He did. Because Jesus had 'two' lives.

The eternal one (Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.)
and
The additional one He took up at Bethlehem (Hebrews 2:16 For verily He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved Him to be made like unto his brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. and Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man)

Your premise from Hebrews 13:8 is fallacious because of your opening sentences, or actually vice versa.

But before even addressing this... You must address the content of my post to which you responded. You need to delineate some detail about God's psuche (soul-life) that He laid down. Sort out the whole issue of God's psuche in regards to three eternal transcendent perichoresis-ed God-"persons". One psuche? Multiple psuches? How many soul-lives does God have as three "persons"?

You have indicated that Jesus had two psuches. Two soul-lives. Seriously? Jesus Himself had multiple souls?

How, exactly, did the Father lay down His psuche? Same how for the Holy Spirit? Did only Jesus lay down His psuche? Which part of His hypostasized psuche did He lay down? The deity psuche or the humanity psuche? Or are they one psuche? And is/are this/these psuche(s) the same psuche as the Father's and the Holy Spirit's? And if so, how can a divine "person" not have an individual psuche? Or is it shared? And if shared, when does who have it? Or is it partitioned between them? And how can Jesus have two souls (psuches)?!

If the Son is distinct from the Father and Holy Spirit as a "person", how is the Son (whether it's the God or man or both part(s) of the hypostatic union) able to lay down the psuche of the Father and the Holy Spirit?

There are a bazillion more nebulous paradoxical interogatives about this. How can you in all honesty sweep them aside and ignore the abysmal metaphysics of it all just to maintain your tenuous grasp on a doctrine you've only confirmed after being taught in an overwhelmingly indoctrinating environment?

Trinity doctrine is specific. It includes God being three hupostases of one ousia. That cannot be confirmed in scripture, and in fact scripture refutes it by rendering the one usage of hupostasis as singular in regards to God.

Is God three hupostases? If yes, you're Trinitarian and in opposition to simple scripture. If no, you're not Trinitarian. It really is that simple.

Now... specifically... please tell me every intricate detail of God's psuche that He laid down for us, and tell me about Jesus' multiple soul-lives (psuches).

[Silas]

i wish not to make this thread a belief statement or a debate regarding the validity of the trinity, but rather wish it to be centered on the questions

Just please, for this one, please understand I am not asking for a debate on the validity of your belief, just your feelings..... and God's.

Many many thanks

many thanks indeed to all who have answered this far.
i am much appreciative of the sincere answer from your heart.

[Athanasius]

There seem to be on this forum some freedom rarely found on most other Christian forums regarding the belief of the diety of Jesus Christ our Saviour, and going though the last few threads I have found this above quoted statement, which prompted this my thread here.

Of course I have my own belief on the matter, which I cherish very close to my heart, and indeed my spirit, but i wish not to make this thread a belief statement or a debate regarding the validity of the trinity, but rather wish it to be centered on the following questions:

1- As quoted, how do you think it Matters to God if you believe or not in the trinity?
2- Will it cost you your salvation either way?
3- How has your belief changed your worship and your walk with Christ?

I think you get the sense of what I am trying to ask, because I could here have more than these 3 questions, and I encourage you to answer the unasked
Just please, for this one, please understand I am not asking for a debate on the validity of your belief, just your feelings..... and God's.

I am specifically asking these to those Christians of the nontrinitarian communions.

Many many thanks

1. I'm not quite sure it matters to God, as much as it is a question of holding true and accurate knowledge of God / the teaching of Scripture.

2. Historically I've said yes, see my creed:

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

That said, I've grown softer in my rather old age, and don't think it's absolutely necessary, although I imagine there are still some qualifications.

3. Can't answer this one.

[guestman]

There seem to be on this forum some freedom rarely found on most other Christian forums regarding the belief of the diety of Jesus Christ our Saviour, and going though the last few threads I have found this above quoted statement, which prompted this my thread here.

Of course I have my own belief on the matter, which I cherish very close to my heart, and indeed my spirit, but i wish not to make this thread a belief statement or a debate regarding the validity of the trinity, but rather wish it to be centered on the following questions:

1- As quoted, how do you think it Matters to God if you believe or not in the trinity?
2- Will it cost you your salvation either way?
3- How has your belief changed your worship and your walk with Christ?

I think you get the sense of what I am trying to ask, because I could here have more than these 3 questions, and I encourage you to answer the unasked
Just please, for this one, please understand I am not asking for a debate on the validity of your belief, just your feelings..... and God's.

I am specifically asking these to those Christians of the nontrinitarian communions.

Many many thanks

James wrote that the "pure religion" keeps itself "unspotted from the world".(King James Bible) The apostle Paul wrote to the Ephesians, that there "One Lord, one faith, one baptism."(Eph 4:5, King James Bible) So, does it matter what a person believes ? Yes, for there is only "one faith" that is the "pure religion", that has kept itself "unspotted from the world", that teaches what is accurate and pleasing to God. How many differently cut keys will unlock a door ? How many different combinations will unlock a safe ? Only one.

The apostle Paul wrote to the Philippians, that "this is what I continue praying, that your love may abound yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment; that you may make sure of the more important things, so that you may be flawless and not be stumbling others up to the day of Christ."(Phil 1: 9, 10) The Jews as a nation, "because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God."(Rom 10:3) Paul said that they had "a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge."(Rom 10:2)

Hence, does it matter what a person believes ? Yes, very much, for a person must first have "accurate knowledge" in order to know what pleases God. Just as only one key will unlock a door, so likewise is there only one way or "faith" that pleases God. Jesus brought this out very clearly, saying: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it."(Matt 7:13, 14) Those of the "few" on the "cramped...road" find themselves going upstream or against the grain, because the vast majority will in some way oppose them for accepting the "truth".(John 8:32)

Thence, there cannot be two beliefs, one accepting the trinity and one against it that can be pleasing to God, for one or the other is a lie. And what about liars ? Jesus said of Satan, that "one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]."(John 8:44)

Logic alone dictates that there is only way to please God, for at Acts 9:2, the one true religion that Jesus established was called "The Way", not ways. Thus, it is vitally important that a person come to recognize and accept only what is true in the Bible, making great effort to examine the Bible without bias, letting the Bible speak for itself rather than forcing it down a path that is wrong, like trying to force a square peg in a round hole. Most though do not let the Bible speak for itself, but allow orthodox "Christianity" to dictate what they should believe and force a square peg in a round hole, in which it does not fit.

Truth is not at odds with itself. Hence, there is only one true religion that is "The Way" to gain God's favor and salvation, not a multiplicity of ways, as the churches teach. In fact, due to the accepted belief that any way is right as long as you call it "Christian", there are over 41,000 different denominations of 2.3 billion members. Yet, Jesus said that only a "few" would be on the "cramped" road to life. This rules out the vast majority.