Trinity or not: How does it matter?

[LookingUp]

Jesus did not say the words at Jeremiah 17:10…

Where did I say he did?

However, Jesus did say this, "And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.’” Revelation 2:18-19, 23

Is it Jehovah who SEARCHES hearts and mind (Jer. 17:10) or Jesus (Rev. 2:18-19, 23). There is only ONE who searches hearts and minds.

…If Jesus were God, then no one could "give" him any authority, for as God Almighty (Hebrew ’El Shad•dai´ as in Gen 17:1), he would already have all authority.

If God chose to become a man through His word, as a man he would not have all authority. Only God existing as infinite would have all authority. The one who speaks has authority over his own words.

Hence, Jesus, by having the judging of all mankind committed to him by his Father, Jehovah God, he then is the one who is "given" the responsibility by Jehovah to be the one "who searches the kidneys and hearts…

Jesus says he personally can search hearts and minds. Only the infinite God accomplish this omniscient task. Jesus identifies himself with this omniscient God when he makes such claims.

I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear (from the Father), I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me."(John 5:28-30) Jesus therefore judges according to his Father's "will", not his own.

That’s because Jesus is the word of God even as my words are of me. The two are inseparable.

[John 8:32]

There seem to be on this forum some freedom rarely found on most other Christian forums regarding the belief of the diety of Jesus Christ our Saviour, and going though the last few threads I have found this above quoted statement, which prompted this my thread here.

Many many thanks

Although I do not wish to comment on the trinity, I will comment on this. The Admin and moderators here allow lattitude in discussion that is not normally available and I think it is much to their credit. This provides an opportunity for open discussion that can lead to a greater understanding and I think a hearty thanks to them is in order. Thanks!

[guestman]

Where did I say he did?

However, Jesus did say this, "And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you as your works deserve.’” Revelation 2:18-19, 23

Is it Jehovah who SEARCHES hearts and mind (Jer. 17:10) or Jesus (Rev. 2:18-19, 23). There is only ONE who searches hearts and minds.

If God chose to become a man through His word, as a man he would not have all authority. Only God existing as infinite would have all authority. The one who speaks has authority over his own words.

Jesus says he personally can search hearts and minds. Only the infinite God accomplish this omniscient task. Jesus identifies himself with this omniscient God when he makes such claims.

That’s because Jesus is the word of God even as my words are of me. The two are inseparable.

Both Jehovah and Jesus can search the hearts of man. Have you not read John 5:21, 22, whereby Jesus said: "For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to. For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son."

If Jesus were unable to read hearts, but only Jehovah, then how could Jesus determine who is worthy of being resurrected from sheol or hades (mankind's common grave), or anyone who is worthy of life, since "this is the One decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead" ?(Acts 10:42) If Jesus were God, then why did ' all judging ' have to be "committed" or be given to him ?

If Jesus is God, then how can he be "decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead" ? Some 20 years after Jesus resurrection and with him in heaven, the apostle Paul wrote that "I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God."(1 Cor 11:3) If Jesus is God, then why did Paul say this some 20 years after his resurrection ?

He further said: "Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one. For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him".(1 Cor 8:4-6) Paul clearly distinguished God from Jesus.

Moments after Jesus baptism, a voice came from heaven: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”(Matt 3:17) If Jesus is God, then whose voice was from heaven and why did Jesus receive approval if he is indeed God ? And why he is called "Son" instead of God here if he is, in reality, God ? Does God need approval from anyone ?

At Isaiah 45, God says: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God. I shall closely gird you, although you have not known me, in order that people may know from the rising of the sun and from its setting that there is none besides me. I am Jehovah, and there is no one else."(Isa 45:5, 6)

Hence, the proper conclusion is that Jesus, as God's "only-begotten Son"(John 3:16), is subservient to Jehovah God, as Lord, as Paul noted. To thus say that God "chose to become a man through his word" is not Scriptural, but the product of false religious reasoning.

Rather than letting the Bible speak for itself, many try to drive a square peg in a round hole. To correctly reason on the Bible only a few are apparently willing to do and that is one of the grounds why Jesus said that only "a few" are on the road "to life".(Matt 7:14) Jesus condemned the Jewish religious leaders for their unwillingness to properly reason on the Scriptures that give life.(John 5:39)

Only by following Jesus words in his prayer to his Father, can a person be saved: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you (not me), the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."(John 17:3) By imputing that Jesus is God goes contrary to the Scriptures, and therefore closes the door to life everlasting unless a person comes to seriously recognize that Jesus is not God, but only his Father, Jehovah.

[LookingUp]

…For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son."

If the Father has committed ALL judging to the Son and the Son is not identified with God, then why does Scripture say that God IS the Judge of our works? (Proverbs 75:7; Psalm 58:11; Job 21:22). Scripture says God is the Judge of our works and Scripture says Jesus is the Judge of our works.

This is the way I’d explain it, but please tell me how you reconcile it. God judges THROUGH and AS Jesus. It’s not like God takes over (i.e. possess) the body of Jesus and then uses Jesus as a puppet. Why would infinite God use a puppet through whom to judge? No one but God is the Judge. God the Father committed all judging to the Son and yet God is still THE Judge, but only THROUGH Jesus. Why? Because God became a man, Jesus, THROUGH His Word and God existed as a man—God manifests, acts, works, and judges in the form of a man. The infinite God is still in charge and distinct from the finite man, Jesus. Jesus does not exist as the infinite God. The infinite God exists as the man, Jesus. So, it is the infinite God existing as man, the Son, who judges.

If Jesus were unable to read hearts, but only Jehovah, then how could Jesus determine who is worthy of being resurrected from sheol or hades(mankind's common grave), or anyone who is worthy of life, since "this is the One decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead" ?(Acts 10:42)

Finite beings can’t search hearts and judge each person according to his works. The infinite God does this THROUGH and AS the finite man, Jesus.

If Jesus were God, then why did ' all judging ' have to be "committed" or be given to him ?

Because Jesus is a finite man.

If Jesus is God, then how can he be "decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead" ?

Because Jesus is a finite man through whom God manifests Himself to finite beings.

Some 20 years after Jesus resurrection and with him in heaven, the apostle Paul wrote that "I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God."(1 Cor 11:3) If Jesus is God, then why did Paul say this some 20 years after his resurrection ?

Because Jesus is still a finite man—a glorified, immortal man, but still finite. Only God as infinite can be infinite.

He further said: "Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one.

Yes, there is but one God—the one God who is infinite, the one infinite God who became a man through His Word. One God existing in two forms: infinite and finite. The one God existing as invisible and the one God existing as visible. The one God no finite being can see or know and the one God all created, finite beings can see and know intimately.

… Paul clearly distinguished God from Jesus.

That’s because God the Father and the Son, Jesus, are distinct.

Moments after Jesus baptism, a voice came from heaven: "This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”(Matt 3:17) If Jesus is God, then whose voice was from heaven and why did Jesus receive approval if he is indeed God ? And why he is called "Son" instead of God here if he is, in reality, God ? Does God need approval from anyone ?

God as a man needs approval from the infinite God because man is always finite and in need of the infinite God. Jesus isn’t “man the God”; he is “God the man.” Jesus as a finite man was limited in every way a finite man is limited.

At Isaiah 45, God says: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God. I shall closely gird you, although you have not known me, in order that people may know from the rising of the sun and from its setting that there is none besides me. I am Jehovah, and there is no one else."(Isa 45:5, 6)

Right, there is no God but Jehovah. One God. One God who exists as invisible and infinite. One God who exists as visible and finite. One God. One person/identity existing in two forms. One “person” or “identity” existing in two ways: infinite and finite. But the one God existing as finite is NOT infinite, so this God existing as finite cannot act like, behave like, exist like He is infinite when He’s NOT. His brain is limited, his stomach needs food, his body needs rest, his lunges need oxygen, his soul needs faith and cries out to God, because every man needs God. That’s why he prayed and that’s why he had/has a God—an infinite God who sustains him. God, through His Word, emptied himself and became a real, human, finite, limited man. However, God as infinite didn’t stop existing as infinite when He did this.

Hence, the proper conclusion is that Jesus, as God's "only-begotten Son"(John 3:16), is subservient to Jehovah God, as Lord, as Paul noted. To thus say that God "chose to become a man through his word" is not Scriptural, but the product of false religious reasoning.

You have only half of the conclusion. Because you can’t reconcile in your own mind how Jesus can be both the Son of God and the Word of God (i.e. God) become man, you feel you must reject the latter.

Jesus is called God and God-only qualities, titles and acts are attributed to Jesus. How do you reconcile that? It is blasphemy to attribute God-only qualities, titles and acts to anyone but God, yet that is what Scripture does.

Rather than letting the Bible speak for itself, many try to drive a square peg in a round hole. To correctly reason on the Bible only a few are apparently willing to do and that is one of the grounds why Jesus said that only "a few" are on the road "to life".(Matt 7:14) Jesus condemned the Jewish religious leaders for their unwillingness to properly reason on the Scriptures that give life.(John 5:39)

You put your own finite reasoning above Scripture. Scripture plainly says that Jesus is God (i.e. Thomas) and Scripture plainly attributes God-only phenomena to Jesus.

Only by following Jesus words in his prayer to his Father, can a person be saved: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you (not me), the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."(John 17:3) By imputing that Jesus is God goes contrary to the Scriptures, and therefore closes the door to life everlasting unless a person comes to seriously recognize that Jesus is not God, but only his Father, Jehovah.

I adjure you in the name of Christ Jesus, be careful of what you say about the salvation of another. God is the Judge, not you. Eternal life is not knowledge in doctrine. Eternal life is from God through Jesus Christ. You rob Christ Jesus by these kinds of bogus, arrogant claims (i.e. “you have to follow my interpretation of this verse or you’re going to hell”).

[Sojourner55]

Only by following Jesus words in his prayer to his Father, can a person be saved: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you (not me), the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."(John 17:3) By imputing that Jesus is God goes contrary to the Scriptures, and therefore closes the door to life everlasting unless a person comes to seriously recognize that Jesus is not God, but only his Father, Jehovah.

MOD NOTE:

If an individual chooses to believe the false teachings of his cult leaders rather than the Scriptures, and rejects the deity of Jesus, that's between God and that individual. But calling any believer's salvation into question puts one in the seat of God, and that will not be tolerated on this board.

[markedward]

At Isaiah 45, God says: "I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God. I shall closely gird you, although you have not known me, in order that people may know from the rising of the sun and from its setting that there is none besides me. I am Jehovah, and there is no one else."(Isa 45:5, 6)

I'll respond to this with something I've posted in a couple of other threads:

Don't stop short. Let's look at all of the relevant passages in this section of Isaiah.

Isaiah 40: 'Have you not known? Have you not heard? Yahweh is the everlasting God, the creator of the ends of the earth.'

Isaiah 41: 'Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, Yahweh, the first and with the last: I am he.'

Isaiah 42: 'I am Yahweh, that is my name. My glory I give to no other.'

Isaiah 43: 'I, I am Yahweh, and besides me there is no savior.'

Isaiah 44: 'Thus says Yahweh, the King and Redeemer of Israel, Yahweh of Hosts, "I am the first and I am the last, besides me there is no god. ... Is there a god besides me? There is no rock, I know not any." ... Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb, "I am Yahweh, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself."'

Isaiah 45: ​​​​​​​'I am Yahweh, and there is no other, besides me there is no God ... I am Yahweh, and there is no other ... I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hand that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host ... I am Yahweh, and there is no other ... There is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior, there is none besides me ... Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.'

Isaiah 46: 'I am God, and there is no other. I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things not yet done.'

Isaiah 48: 'Hear this, house of Jacob, who are called by the name of Israel, and who came from the waters of Judah, who swear by the name of Yahweh and confess the God of Israel ... Listen to me, Jacob, and Israel, whom I called: I am he, I am the first and I am the last. My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens. When I call to them, they stand forth together.'

And so on.

Isaiah 40-55 contains the most emphatic series of proclamations regarding the absolute uniqueness of Yahweh. All of the statements are written in Isaiah 40-55 to back up the claim that Yahweh is the one true God necessarily must be read as evidence in favor of that. If any of those statements are at all applicable to someone who is not Yahweh, then these passages fail in that purpose. And yet, we find that several of the 'Yahweh alone is this' statements are applied directly to Jesus.

Yahweh alone created all things (Isaiah 40,44,45,48), from heaven to earth and everything within. But the New Testament writers include Jesus within that act of creation (e.g. 1 Corinthians 8.6, Colossians 1.16).

Yahweh alone is the first and the last, the beginning and the end (41,44,46,48), and this is affirmed in the New Testament (Revelation 1.8). But the New Testament writers include Jesus within that emphatic declaration of God's uniqueness (Revelation 1.17; 2.8; 21.6; 22.13).

Yahweh alone receives the glory of all heaven and earth, he shares his glory with no one (Isaiah 42). But the New Testament writers include Jesus within that glory (Revelation 5.12-14).

Yahweh alone has the Name above all names, and only to Yahweh will every knee bow and every tongue confess allegiance (Isaiah 42,45,48). But the New Testament writers very explicitly include Jesus within that Name, proclaiming that every knee shall bow to Jesus, and every tongue shall confess allegiance to Jesus (Philippians 2.9-11).

The New Testament writers include Jesus in the unique identity of Yahweh.

[guestman]

If the Father has committed ALL judging to the Son and the Son is not identified with God, then why does Scripture say that God IS the Judge of our works? (Proverbs 75:7; Psalm 58:11; Job 21:22). Scripture says God is the Judge of our works and Scripture says Jesus is the Judge of our works.

This is the way I’d explain it, but please tell me how you reconcile it. God judges THROUGH and AS Jesus. It’s not like God takes over (i.e. possess) the body of Jesus and then uses Jesus as a puppet. Why would infinite God use a puppet through whom to judge? No one but God is the Judge. God the Father committed all judging to the Son and yet God is still THE Judge, but only THROUGH Jesus. Why? Because God became a man, Jesus, THROUGH His Word and God existed as a man—God manifests, acts, works, and judges in the form of a man. The infinite God is still in charge and distinct from the finite man, Jesus. Jesus does not exist as the infinite God. The infinite God exists as the man, Jesus. So, it is the infinite God existing as man, the Son, who judges.

Finite beings can’t search hearts and judge each person according to his works. The infinite God does this THROUGH and AS the finite man, Jesus.

Because Jesus is a finite man.

Because Jesus is a finite man through whom God manifests Himself to finite beings.

Because Jesus is still a finite man—a glorified, immortal man, but still finite. Only God as infinite can be infinite.

Yes, there is but one God—the one God who is infinite, the one infinite God who became a man through His Word. One God existing in two forms: infinite and finite. The one God existing as invisible and the one God existing as visible. The one God no finite being can see or know and the one God all created, finite beings can see and know intimately.

That’s because God the Father and the Son, Jesus, are distinct.

God as a man needs approval from the infinite God because man is always finite and in need of the infinite God. Jesus isn’t “man the God”; he is “God the man.” Jesus as a finite man was limited in every way a finite man is limited.

Right, there is no God but Jehovah. One God. One God who exists as invisible and infinite. One God who exists as visible and finite. One God. One person/identity existing in two forms. One “person” or “identity” existing in two ways: infinite and finite. But the one God existing as finite is NOT infinite, so this God existing as finite cannot act like, behave like, exist like He is infinite when He’s NOT. His brain is limited, his stomach needs food, his body needs rest, his lunges need oxygen, his soul needs faith and cries out to God, because every man needs God. That’s why he prayed and that’s why he had/has a God—an infinite God who sustains him. God, through His Word, emptied himself and became a real, human, finite, limited man. However, God as infinite didn’t stop existing as infinite when He did this.

You have only half of the conclusion. Because you can’t reconcile in your own mind how Jesus can be both the Son of God and the Word of God (i.e. God) become man, you feel you must reject the latter.

Jesus is called God and God-only qualities, titles and acts are attributed to Jesus. How do you reconcile that? It is blasphemy to attribute God-only qualities, titles and acts to anyone but God, yet that is what Scripture does.

You put your own finite reasoning above Scripture. Scripture plainly says that Jesus is God (i.e. Thomas) and Scripture plainly attributes God-only phenomena to Jesus.

I adjure you in the name of Christ Jesus, be careful of what you say about the salvation of another. God is the Judge, not you. Eternal life is not knowledge in doctrine. Eternal life is from God through Jesus Christ. You rob Christ Jesus by these kinds of bogus, arrogant claims (i.e. “you have to follow my interpretation of this verse or you’re going to hell”).

The expression that "God became a man, Jesus, through his Word and God existed as a man--God manifests, acts, works and judges in the form of man" is not Scriptural, but is found in the teachings of Monophysitism ("one nature") of the 5th century C.E., which held that the union between God and the Son was inseparable, and that although two natures, Jesus was in reality only one, wholly God and at the same time wholly man. Nowhere is it found that God existed as a man in Jesus, but that Jesus is always spoken of as his Son, even saying that "the Father is greater than I am."(John 14:28)

This belief, wholly God and at the same time wholly man, was an outgrowth from the controversy that had arisen during the 4th century, between Arius, an Alexandrian priest, who argued that the Christ is inferior to God and that of Athanasius, an archdeacon of the church of Alexandria (Arius was in the same church), who was doctrinally trintarian, but Arius was unitarian.

And thus concerning judging, Abraham, in pleading with God about the inhabitants of Sodom, where his nephew Lot was living, said: "Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked ?....Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right ?"(Gen 18:23, 25) And at Isaiah 33:22, it says: "For Jehovah is our Judge, Jehovah is our Statute-giver, Jehovah is our King; he himself will save us." Hence, Jehovah makes the laws, interprets the laws and enforces his laws that we are to follow.

And thence, Jehovah God is the "Judge of all the earth", but he also appoints others to judge in his behalf, for have you not read whereby Moses was put in position as judge of the nation of Israel, then ones were appointed as judges underneath him at Exodus 18, with Moses telling his father-in-law: "I must judge between the one party and the other, and I must make known the decisions of the true God and his laws".(Ex 18:16) God does not do all the judging himself, but appoints qualified ones to judge righteously for him.

Jesus is the one that Jehovah has committed to judging all mankind (John 5:22), the "living and the dead".(Acts 10:42) Again, have you not read at Isaiah 11 concerning "a twig out of the stump of Jesse....And upon him the spirit of Jehovah must settle down....And he will not judge by any mere appearance to his eyes nor reprove simply according to the thing heard by his ears. And with righteousness he must judge the lowly ones."(Isa 11:1-4) Jesus is the "twig", for Isaiah 53:2 identifies him as such.

Hence, Jesus, as "God's only-begotten Son" (John 3:16), is the one upon whom Jehovah's spirit has "settled down", so that he judges "with righteousness". Just as the holy spirit was poured out upon Moses in judging the nation of Israel and then later upon seventy older men, so of Jesus, "God....has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man (Jesus Christ) whom he has appointed ("appointed", Greek horizo, meaning "to appoint, decree, specify", G3724, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible), and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”(Acts 17:30, 31) In the final analysis, Jehovah's judgments are firmly done, by means of Jesus as his "appointed" one.

If Jesus is God, then who is it that he prayed to ? Prayer is for those who are subservient to God, not for God to ' talk to God'. Have you not read whereby the apostle Paul wrote that Jesus "offered up supplications ("supplications", Greek hiketerias, meaning "entreaty", also "an olive-branch; for suppliants [meaning "expressing a humble but heart-felt appeal to somebody who has the power to grant a request", Microsoft Reference Library 2005] approached the one whose aid they they would implore holding an olive-branch entwined with white wool and fillets", Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pg 301) and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear."(Heb 5:7)

If Jesus is God, then why did he have "godly fear" ? Why did he supplicate God or make a request if Jesus is indeed God who can fulfill his own request ? The trinity has no foundation, but is like the evolution theory, that is supported in people's minds but not by factual evidence.

And have you not read at Exodus 4, in which Moses is given the title of God before Aaron when going before Pharaoh, with Jehovah saying to him: "And he (Aaron) must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him."(Ex 4:16)

And the acceptance of Thomas words at John 20:28 places them above both Jehovah's and Jesus own words, as well all the other Bible writers. His words, in your eyes, has more weight than either Jehovah or Jesus. This is placing human thought above God's thoughts. Can one rightly do this ? No. Jesus told the Pharisees that "you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition."(Matt 15:6)

[LookingUp]

The expression that "God became a man, Jesus, through his Word and God existed as a man--God manifests, acts, works and judges in the form of man" is not Scriptural, but is found in the teachings of Monophysitism ("one nature") of the 5th century C.E., which held that the union between God and the Son was inseparable, and that although two natures, Jesus was in reality only one, wholly God and at the same time wholly man. Nowhere is it found that God existed as a man in Jesus, but that Jesus is always spoken of as his Son, even saying that "the Father is greater than I am."(John 14:28)

This belief, wholly God and at the same time wholly man, was an outgrowth from the controversy that had arisen during the 4th century, between Arius, an Alexandrian priest, who argued that the Christ is inferior to God and that of Athanasius, an archdeacon of the church of Alexandria (Arius was in the same church), who was doctrinally trintarian, but Arius was unitarian.

And thus concerning judging, Abraham, in pleading with God about the inhabitants of Sodom, where his nephew Lot was living, said: "Will you really sweep away the righteous with the wicked ?....Is the Judge of all the earth not going to do what is right ?"(Gen 18:23, 25) And at Isaiah 33:22, it says: "For Jehovah is our Judge, Jehovah is our Statute-giver, Jehovah is our King; he himself will save us." Hence, Jehovah makes the laws, interprets the laws and enforces his laws that we are to follow.

And thence, Jehovah God is the "Judge of all the earth", but he also appoints others to judge in his behalf, for have you not read whereby Moses was put in position as judge of the nation of Israel, then ones were appointed as judges underneath him at Exodus 18, with Moses telling his father-in-law: "I must judge between the one party and the other, and I must make known the decisions of the true God and his laws".(Ex 18:16) God does not do all the judging himself, but appoints qualified ones to judge righteously for him.

Jesus is the one that Jehovah has committed to judging all mankind (John 5:22), the "living and the dead".(Acts 10:42) Again, have you not read at Isaiah 11 concerning "a twig out of the stump of Jesse....And upon him the spirit of Jehovah must settle down....And he will not judge by any mere appearance to his eyes nor reprove simply according to the thing heard by his ears. And with righteousness he must judge the lowly ones."(Isa 11:1-4) Jesus is the "twig", for Isaiah 53:2 identifies him as such.

Hence, Jesus, as "God's only-begotten Son" (John 3:16), is the one upon whom Jehovah's spirit has "settled down", so that he judges "with righteousness". Just as the holy spirit was poured out upon Moses in judging the nation of Israel and then later upon seventy older men, so of Jesus, "God....has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man (Jesus Christ) whom he has appointed ("appointed", Greek horizo, meaning "to appoint, decree, specify", G3724, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible), and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”(Acts 17:30, 31) In the final analysis, Jehovah's judgments are firmly done, by means of Jesus as his "appointed" one.

If Jesus is God, then who is it that he prayed to ? Prayer is for those who are subservient to God, not for God to ' talk to God'. Have you not read whereby the apostle Paul wrote that Jesus "offered up supplications ("supplications", Greek hiketerias, meaning "entreaty", also "an olive-branch; for suppliants [meaning "expressing a humble but heart-felt appeal to somebody who has the power to grant a request", Microsoft Reference Library 2005] approached the one whose aid they they would implore holding an olive-branch entwined with white wool and fillets", Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, pg 301) and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear."(Heb 5:7)

If Jesus is God, then why did he have "godly fear" ? Why did he supplicate God or make a request if is indeed is God who can fulfill his own request ? The trinity has no foundation, but is like the evolution theory, that is supported in people's minds but not by factual evidence.

And have you not read at Exodus 4, in which Moses is given the title of God before Aaron when going before Pharaoh, with Jehovah saying to him: "And he (Aaron) must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him."(Ex 4:16)

And the acceptance of Thomas words at John 20:28 places them above both Jehovah's and Jesus own words, as well all the other Bible writers. His words, in your eyes, has more weight than either Jehovah or Jesus. This is placing human thought above God's thoughts. Can one rightly do this ? No. Jesus told the Pharisees that "you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition."(Matt 15:6)

We’re not talking about simply handing out judgments based on what God reveals (i.e. Moses & other judges). We’re talking about one who claims to be THE one to perform a God-only task: SEARCHING hearts and minds (Rev. 2:23). As Mark points out in his post above, there are several “God ALONE is this” statements applied directly to Jesus. How can this be if Jesus is not somehow included in the identity of Jehovah?

You ask who Jesus prayed to and why did he have godly fear. Jesus prayed to the infinite God and had godly fear for the infinite God. Jesus was not the infinite God; he was infinite God become man (i.e. finite) through His word. As a mortal man, he was physically limited in all ways that any mortal man is limited. All things Jesus had were given to him by the infinite God. Jesus had to grow intellectually and spiritually as any man grows. The only way I can understand this mystery is to conclude that although Jesus was/is included in the identity of God, he was human in every physical way (i.e. he was not omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc.). However, his innermost core/heart/soul was so completely and perfectly aligned with God, he is/was included in the unique identity of God (the only man included in His identity).

As far as Moses being “as god” to Pharaoh, you continue to neglect the glaring fact that never were there any “God ALONE is this” statements applied to Moses, yet they are applied to Jesus. I, for one, cannot dismiss this vitally important fact. I feel I must reconcile such an essential truth with the rest of Scripture. There is no other conclusion but to accept that Jesus is somehow included in the unique identity of Jehovah.

Thomas’ words reconcile with Scripture. He verbalized a truth we don’t see any other disciple verbalize. He recognized “God with us.” There is one God. He is invisible and has made Himself known to us through Jesus, His word.

[guestman]

The ability to "search hearts and minds" is not "a God-only task", for Jehovah God gave this to king Solomon, telling him in dream at 1 Kings 3: "For the reason that you have requested this thing ("to judge your people, to discern between good and bad; for who is able to judge this difficult people of yours", verse 9) and have not requested for yourself many days nor requested for yourself riches nor requested the soul of your enemies, and you have requested for yourself understanding to hear judicial cases, look! I shall certainly do according to your words. Look! I shall certainly give you a wise and understanding heart, so that one like you there has not happened to be before you, and after you there will not rise up one like you."(1 Kings 3:11, 12)

Thus, Solomon was given extraordinary perception and abilities to discern "thoughts and intentions of the heart."(Heb 4:12) Almost immediately, king Solomon was tested with regard to two prostitutes who were living in the same household and gave birth at almost the identical time, whereby one of the prostitutes suffocated her baby, but then secretly exchanged her dead baby with the living one. The other prostitute presented her case before Solomon, explaining that the living baby was hers, but the dead child was the other prostitute.

Knowing full-well that the real mother of the living child (because of the extraordinary capability given by God) would speak out in favor of her baby, he then proceeded to send for a sword in order to cut the living baby in half, so that each could have half. The mother of the dead baby said to go ahead and cut it in two but the real mother pleaded with Solomon to let the baby live and give it to other woman. By being granted extraordinary perception, he solved this mystery, with all the people of Israel seeing that "the wisdom of God was within him to execute judicial decision".(1 Kings 3:28) Hence, even imperfect individuals have been given or granted the power to "search hearts and minds" by Jehovah God.

Thence, Jesus has the power and capability to "search hearts and minds", not God only. It is amazing how individuals feel that Jesus was God in heaven, then not God on the earth, then be God again when resurrected. Even political leaders do not lose their power or position when traveling to another country, but according to you, Jesus did. Thus Jesus to you, as Almighty God, can lose his almighty power. How can Almighty God lose that which is his alone, his almighty power ? This is impossible. Also, can God die ?

Habakkuk 1:12 says: "Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die." Yet Jesus died.(1 Thess 4:14) And Psalms 90:2 says that God is "from everlasting to everlasting".(King James Bible) If Jesus is God, then both these Scriptures are wrong, which is impossible, for the apostle Paul wrote that "God cannot lie".(Titus 1:2)

If a person were to objectively allow the Bible to speak for itself, then as to who Jehovah and Jesus is clearly resolved. There would be no enigma, but then one could see that Jesus is, as he himself said, the "only-begotten Son of God" (John 3:16), not "God the Son".

The Greek word for "only-begotten", monogenes, means "single of its kind, only,” or “the only member of a kin or kind.” (Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889, p. 417; Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, Oxford, 1968, p. 1144) How can Jesus be a "single of its kind", whereas the other "two" of the supposed trinity, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit are not spoken of this way. Why is Jesus separated alone by this expression ? Why is he alone unique, if he part of a trinity whereby all three are God, equal in power ?

The online interlinear Scripture4all reads as "only-generated". Thus, accurately, Jesus was "only-generated" or created, being unique in this.(Rev 3:14) Why ? To many, these words cannot be properly explained, but will rationalize rather than allowing the Bible to speak for itself.

It is as Jesus said, quoting from Isaiah: "Looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; and toward them the prophecy of Isaiah is having fulfillment, which says, ‘By hearing, you will hear but by no means get the sense of it; and, looking, you will look but by no means see. For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive (Greek epachunthe, meaning "to thicken, i.e. to fatten"), and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’ "(Matt 13:13-15)

[LookingUp]

The ability to "search hearts and minds" is not "a God-only task", for Jehovah God gave this to king Solomon, …

You’re reaching. Solomon was given a “wise and understanding heart” but he couldn’t search anyone’s heart and mind. Jesus claims he does something that belongs to God alone: the searching of another's heart and mind.

It is amazing how individuals feel that Jesus was God in heaven, then not God on the earth, then be God again when resurrected.

I don’t know anyone who thinks that.

Even political leaders do not lose their power or position when traveling to another country, but according to you, Jesus did.

I never said Jesus “lost” anything.

Thus Jesus to you, as Almighty God, can lose his almighty power. How can Almighty God lose that which is his alone, his almighty power ? This is impossible.

Are you even bothering to read my posts? If not, this is a big waste of time.

Also, can God die ?

Habakkuk 1:12 says: "Are you not from long ago, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die." Yet Jesus died.(1 Thess 4:14) And Psalms 90:2 says that God is "from everlasting to everlasting".(King James Bible) If Jesus is God, then both these Scriptures are wrong, which is impossible, for the apostle Paul wrote that "God cannot lie".(Titus 1:2)

God as a man could experience the death of his body, because men die. Pretty basic stuff. The infinite God existing as the infinite God didn’t die.

…Why is Jesus separated alone by this expression ? Why is he alone unique, if he part of a trinity whereby all three are God, equal in power ?

The online interlinear Scripture4all reads as "only-generated". Thus, accurately, Jesus was "only-generated" or created, being unique in this.(Rev 3:14) Why ? To many, these words cannot be properly explained, but will rationalize rather than allowing the Bible to speak for itself.

Why do you keep mentioning the trinity? I haven’t. Jesus is obviously unique. God, through His word, became Jesus. That’s pretty unique.

It is as Jesus said, quoting from Isaiah: "Looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it; …

Yeah, yeah, you’ve already told me I’m going to hell since I don’t interpret things as you do. Look, you say I’ve said things I’ve never said and believe things I don’t believe. You’re not even reading my posts. Talk about shutting eyes and stopping up ears.

You still haven’t responded to Mark. Why is that?

[guestman]

I have provided sufficient information concerning Jehovah God and his "only-begotten Son", who said that he is "the beginning of the creation by God" (Rev 3:14), not "God as a man", for the apostle Paul wrote that "there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus."(1 Tim 2:5) I personally am done here.

[Silas]

May I redirect the last two posters to the words of the opening post of this thread please? And in doing so ask them to revise their heart in searching in it the answer to the questions asked in light of the Scripture where Paul says that knowledge puffs up?

I would be most greatful of that in my prayers for you, as this most important matter is heavy in my heart, laying aside the elementary things fully propagated online and on the street.

Many thanks to all of you.
May the peace of Christ be yours

[LookingUp]

May I redirect the last two posters to the words of the opening post of this thread please? And in doing so ask them to revise their heart in searching in it the answer to the questions asked in light of the Scripture where Paul says that knowledge puffs up?

I would be most greatful of that in my prayers for you, as this most important matter is heavy in my heart, laying aside the elementary things fully propagated online and on the street.

Many thanks to all of you.
May the peace of Christ be yours

I gave my beliefs only, as requested, early on (post #5). guestman came along and began debating every post. You may not have wished for people to debate in this thread, but that’s what happens in a forum that encourages debate. I’m unsure what it is “in my heart” you pray I revise. If you could be more specific, it would be helpful to me. If I began to sound exasperated in my last post (after patiently dialoging with guestman for 3 ½ months), perhaps it was because guestman made the accusation that I was going to hell if I didn’t adhere to his interpretation of Scripture. Apparently, seeing that I wasn’t swayed to his position, he left me with an ultimatum.

Even if I believed that one’s salvation was in jeopardy for not adhering to the deity of Christ (i.e. Christ is God), which I don’t, I would not make such an accusation to any individual. Ironically, guestman believes I’m going to hell because I DO adhere to the deity of Christ. Apparently, some people’s belief (in whatever doctrine about Christ) leads them in such a walk with Christ that puts them in the judgment seat of God. When you asked your question: Will your belief cost you your salvation and how has your belief changed your walk with Christ?, I’m sure you hoped for answers to be introspective and self-examining rather than towards others. But if one’s beliefs allows one to sit in the judgment seat of God, it’s no wonder this thread, given the opening post, would eventually end up where it is. Do you see what I mean here?

[Silas]

I gave my beliefs only, as requested, early on (post #5). guestman came along and began debating every post. You may not have wished for people to debate in this thread, but that’s what happens in a forum that encourages debate. I’m unsure what it is “in my heart” you pray I revise. If you could be more specific, it would be helpful to me. If I began to sound exasperated in my last post (after patiently dialoging with guestman for 3 ½ months), perhaps it was because guestman made the accusation that I was going to hell if I didn’t adhere to his interpretation of Scripture. Apparently, seeing that I wasn’t swayed to his position, he left me with an ultimatum.

Even if I believed that one’s salvation was in jeopardy for not adhering to the deity of Christ (i.e. Christ is God), which I don’t, I would not make such an accusation to any individual. Ironically, guestman believes I’m going to hell because I DO adhere to the deity of Christ. Apparently, some people’s belief (in whatever doctrine about Christ) leads them in such a walk with Christ that puts them in the judgment seat of God. When you asked your question: Will your belief cost you your salvation and how has your belief changed your walk with Christ?, I’m sure you hoped for answers to be introspective and self-examining rather than towards others. But if one’s beliefs allows one to sit in the judgment seat of God, it’s no wonder this thread, given the opening post, would eventually end up where it is. Do you see what I mean here?

Yes I do That is the reason why I have tried politely to be specifically emphatic whilst asking at the start, but I do thank you to for sharing your love for truth brother.
It seems to be the spirit of the communion of some to prefer debate rather that encouraging the growth of the Body of Christ, but to follow the lead of the broad road is no wiser even if it pains to see Truth disfigured and He whom we love brought into discussion away from the heart of worship, for as you said rightly, I was seeking a rather more introspective response, and wished on my last post a return to that mind of the gift that we have in our heart of the holy Spirit in direction to God, and if you would allow me just that , please let me do it now:

I ask in love brother:
How is it that you say that believing that Christ is not The God has not changed your worship?

I worshiped and walked with God the same as I did when I believed the trinity to be accurate.

Hasn't the fact that Jesus Christ has sacrificed his life to God impact your heart to appreciate the deep relationship between the Two differently if you believe that he himself isn't The God?
Even if this is not what you believe, the fact remains that one person loved the other differently and so was loved differently by the other than what trinitarians believe? To know that a person other than God could be declared righteous by God hasn't changed your worship?
These are just examples and are not meant to encourage discussion of doctrine, but as above explained by you, I am asking you now how come so different beliefs could not affect how you worship our God and His son in your heart?

Again I do thank you for understanding the spirit of my thread and show your love for God

[LookingUp]

Yes I do That is the reason why I have tried politely to be specifically emphatic whilst asking at the start,

Hello, Silas. Yes, you certainly did try. The "debate" in me certainly got the better of me!

but I do thank you to for sharing your love for truth brother.

Well, I certainly desire truth. I think we can live and reflect truth without being able to articulate accurately all the details pertaining to that truth, and although I strive to “live truth,” I often fail.

It seems to be the spirit of the communion of some to prefer debate rather that encouraging the growth of the Body of Christ,

If we’re on a debate forum, such as this, it’s bound to appear that debate is what we prefer. For example, I’m sure I come across like I prefer debate over encouraging the growth of the Body of Christ, but in my daily life, I certainly don’t go around debating everyone. In my daily life, I spend time praying for and encouraging my family and friends in Christ.

but to follow the lead of the broad road is no wiser even if it pains to see Truth disfigured and He whom we love brought into discussion away from the heart of worship, for as you said rightly, I was seeking a rather more introspective response, and wished on my last post a return to that mind of the gift that we have in our heart of the holy Spirit in direction to God, and if you would allow me just that , please let me do it now:

That would be great!

I ask in love brother:
How is it that you say that believing that Christ is not The God has not changed your worship?

I’m not sure I understand your question, because I DO believe that Messiah Jesus is THE image of the invisible God. You quoted my statement that I’m walking the same now as I did when I believed the Trinity to be accurate. Just because I think the Trinity is inaccurate (i.e. I think it probably has some flaws) doesn’t mean that I don’t believe that Messiah Jesus is not the Word of God made flesh.

Hasn't the fact that Jesus Christ has sacrificed his life to God impact your heart to appreciate the deep relationship between the Two differently if you believe that he himself isn't The God?

I’m sorry, but I don’t understand the question.

Even if this is not what you believe, the fact remains that one person loved the other differently and so was loved differently by the other than what trinitarians believe? To know that a person other than God could be declared righteous by God hasn't changed your worship?

I’m still having trouble following you. God, who became man through His Word, was declared righteous by the infinite, invisible God.

These are just examples and are not meant to encourage discussion of doctrine, but as above explained by you, I am asking you now how come so different beliefs could not affect how you worship our God and His son in your heart?

Well, I think it’s because my beliefs are not that different from when I adhered to the Trinity. For me, the Trinity is just one way of explaining the make-up of God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). You see, I continue to believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit ARE God, but not in the way the Trinity explains it.

Again I do thank you for understanding the spirit of my thread and show your love for God

No, thank you, Silas. You have reminded me of some things I needed to be reminded of.