Charles Finney: hero or heretic?

[episkopos]

since there is a disagreement regarding imputed righteousness, may I ask all who care to answer how you personally define "imputed righteousness", and if you are opposed to this teaching, would you please let me know what it is you object to? I think some of the misunderstandings and disagreements may be due to semantics, and I am interested in seeing if this is the case. I think various Christians have differences of opinion on what "imputed righteousness" means.

I am now logging off and will be away from the forums for a few days, but I look forward to hearing what you all have to say.

im·pu·ta·tion (mpy-tshn)
n.
1. The act of imputing or ascribing; attribution.
2. Something imputed, ascribed, or attributed.

The religious idea behind "imputes righteousness" does not follow the true meaning of the word "imputed". There is another thought going on...that of hiding a person behind Christ...or doing a cover-up so that it APPEARS that a person is righteous...and this supposedly to God. But how can God be fooled as to the true nature of a person? So this doctrine breaks down into a person hiding his guilt behind various verses that have Jesus is them. The Pharisees did the same thing but they hid (or sought to hide) behind Moses.

The truth is that we must be found IN Christ. This cannot happen until the sin nature is crucified or rendered powerless. A man cannot sinfully abide in Christ.

So we see that the error of building in the shape of Jesus (imitation and effort) with the available materials...wood, hay and stubble of men's reasonings ....is not sanctioned by God. The elements must be pure and refined in holy fire. So we can only legally build with those things that are incorruptable...like gold, silver and precious stones.

So the sinful and corruptible things are dealt with through death...so that only that which is of the new creation passes through.

2Co_4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

This is the mystery of grace...that we walk as Jesus walked. If we fall short of this grace then we are exposed as actors who are just trying to make a good showing but lack the power associated with a walk in the Spirit.

[Noeb]

John wrote what Jesus taught
"If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."
in hopes it would make them stop sinning. A church seduced

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Seduced with gnosticism -they could continue in sin. Read 2:2-25. They are the things written concerning their seduction.

I was very tired when I wrote that and I didn't explain well. So for those that want to use
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
on Christians.......

Gnostics taught the spirit had no sin and the flesh didn't matter so you could still sin. There. Done deal. No longer need to apply it to Christians.
So in the Greek hypothetical, John says "if we say we have no sin", to the Gnostics, those seduced by them, and those hearing them.
It's not, 'if at some point in your walk in Christ you possess your vessel in sanctification and honor and you say you have no sin you are deceived and the truth is not in you.'

Christians do not walk in darkness (1John 1:7, 2:8, 10)
1Jn 1:6 walk in darkness

Christians have the truth (1John 2:21, 27, 3:19)
1Jn 1:8 truth is not in us

Christians have the word (1John 1:1, 2:5, 14, )
1Jn 1:10 his word is not in us.

1Jn 1:8 truth is not in us
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
John clarifies those that do not have the truth in them are liars, walk in darkness, and are blind because of that darkness, if they say they know Jesus. Jesus said the same, btw, and he wasn't talking to believers.

This is written to a church with believers and false believers, just like any church, and an eye witness of Jesus is setting the record straight concerning the heresy. This has nothing to do with "perfectionism", which says you can go and sin no more, and it especially has nothing to do with a believer excited about having victory over sin in their life.

[episkopos]

I was very tired when I wrote that and I didn't explain well. So for those that want to use
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
on Christians.......

Gnostics taught the spirit had no sin and the flesh didn't matter so you could still sin. There. Done deal. No longer need to apply it to Christians.
So in the Greek hypothetical, John says "if we say we have no sin", to the Gnostics, those seduced by them, and those hearing them.
It's not, 'if at some point in your walk in Christ you possess your vessel in sanctification and honor and you say you have no sin you are deceived and the truth is not in you.'

Christians do not walk in darkness
1Jn 1:6 walk in darkness

Christians have the truth (1John 2:21, 27, 3:19)
1Jn 1:8 truth is not in us

Christians have the word (1John 1:1, 2:5, 14, )
1Jn 1:10 his word is not in us.

1Jn 1:8 truth is not in us
1Jn 2:4 Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him,
John clarifies those that do not have the truth in them are liars, walk in darkness, and are blind because of that darkness, if they say they know Jesus. Jesus said the same, btw, and he wasn't talking to believers.

This is written to a church with believers and false believers, just like any church, and an eye witness of Jesus is setting the record straight concerning the heresy. This has nothing to do with "perfectionism", which says you can go and sin no more, and it especially has nothing to do with a believer excited about having victory over sin in their life.

The Lord bless you in truth!

[Noeb]

1. What is the definition of justification?
In good standing before God.

2. On what grounds or basis does God justify us?
Faith
When we first believe. Afterwards, just like Abraham, we have the trail of faith to see if we are going to walk by faith. If we do we remain justified. If we don't we are not.

3. What are the conditions of justification?
Faith

4. Is sanctification an event,a process,or both?
Event
Jesus said some bring forth fruit some thirty, some forty, some sixty. Whenever sanctification is spoken of concerning our position in Christ it is complete, and the same for all. The few times it is spoken of in our lives it's about the same complete sanctification. It is never spoken of as a process. The reason for this is because it is achieved by believing we were crucified and resurrected with him and there is no limit to this grace for the believer. Scripture never says those risen with him have to sin. When we say sanctification in our walk is a process we are contradicting that it says we are free and can do it all through Christ and we are limiting his grace. The flesh profits nothing. It shall perish. It doesn't matter and scripture never implies it matters, neither does it imply sanctification in this life has to be a process. Just because it is doesn't means scripture says it or that it has to be.

[Watchman]

4. Is sanctification an event,a process,or both?
Event
Jesus said some bring forth fruit some thirty, some forty, some sixty. Whenever sanctification is spoken of concerning our position in Christ it is complete, and the same for all. The few times it is spoken of in our lives it's about the same complete sanctification. It is never spoken of as a process. The reason for this is because it is achieved by believing we were crucified and resurrected with him and there is no limit to this grace for the believer. Scripture never says those risen with him have to sin. When we say sanctification in our walk is a process we are contradicting that it says we are free and can do it all through Christ and we are limiting his grace. The flesh profits nothing. It shall perish. It doesn't matter and scripture never implies it matters, neither does it imply sanctification in this life has to be a process. Just because it is doesn't means scripture says it or that it has to be.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

The saints at Thessolonica were already set apart...yet Paul still penned the passage, above. Does this not imply there is some sort of sanctification...some maturation, or setting apart of portions of these folks, yet to come?

W

[Noeb]

No it does not. It says they are not walking in the sanctification given them. It's the same as Philippians 3. Note verse 15 -God shall reveal it to him, is the same as the very God of peace himself in 1Thess 5.

[Noeb]

You can see Paul in Ephessians 1 pray that God would give them a spirit of wisdom and revelation in what has been given them in Christ. You can tell believers they are dead and free from sin in 100 ways but until their eyes are opened they're not going to get it. Meanwhile, they go through a process of becoming a better person and call it a process of sanctification.

[glad4mercy]

1. What is the definition of justification?
In good standing before God.

2. On what grounds or basis does God justify us?
Faith
When we first believe. Afterwards, just like Abraham, we have the trail of faith to see if we are going to walk by faith. If we do we remain justified. If we don't we are not.

3. What are the conditions of justification?
Faith

4. Is sanctification an event,a process,or both?
Event
Jesus said some bring forth fruit some thirty, some forty, some sixty. Whenever sanctification is spoken of concerning our position in Christ it is complete, and the same for all. The few times it is spoken of in our lives it's about the same complete sanctification. It is never spoken of as a process. The reason for this is because it is achieved by believing we were crucified and resurrected with him and there is no limit to this grace for the believer. Scripture never says those risen with him have to sin. When we say sanctification in our walk is a process we are contradicting that it says we are free and can do it all through Christ and we are limiting his grace. The flesh profits nothing. It shall perish. It doesn't matter and scripture never implies it matters, neither does it imply sanctification in this life has to be a process. Just because it is doesn't means scripture says it or that it has to be.

Thank you to everyone who answered the four questions. I noticed on question 2 and 3 everyone put faith as the grounds or basis of our justification and also the condition. I think queston two needs to be a twofold answer. God justifies us on the basis of 1. the finished work of Christ and 2. our faith in Him and His finished work.

Without the finished work of Christ, Faith would be powerless to save us. I know it seems like stating the obvious but for some people this distinction is the difference between trusting in a creed (or an intellectual assent to a form of the truth) and trusting in the person of Jesus Christ and what He accomplished for us. The Gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation, for all who believe, so our faith is not the power, it is what connects us to the power.

Also, if we merely say that the finished work of Christ, ( and nothing else), is the grounds of justification, then we would have to say that either Jesus didnt die for all, ( Calvinism), or that all would be saved, ( Universalism), neither of which I accept. Therefore, I say that the grounds of our justification is our faith in Christ and His finished work. For Christ said, "it is finished. "

[Nobunaga]

interesting thread.

The way i see it is we are saved by grace...God sending His Son to save sinners from the condemnation and power of sin by substitutionary atonement...This i see as God's goodness/grace towards us... made possible by the sinners sins being imputed to Christ and His righteousness being imputed to us.

How we take hold of this grace is by faith, faith to me is just the vehicle through which the free gift offered by God is accepted...we lay hold of grace by faith and are justified by God.

Repent and believe the gospel its as simple and profund as that.

[Watchman]

You can see Paul in Ephessians 1 pray that God would give them a spirit of wisdom and revelation in what has been given them in Christ. You can tell believers they are dead and free from sin in 100 ways but until their eyes are opened they're not going to get it. Meanwhile, they go through a process of becoming a better person and call it a process of sanctification.

I've equated spiritual maturation with progressive sanctification; however, after looking a bit more closely at some of the passages, I am going to reconsider my equation.

W

[Watchman]

Sooo, what did we decide? Finney was a heretical hero...or an heroic heretic?

[glad4mercy]

You can see Paul in Ephessians 1 pray that God would give them a spirit of wisdom and revelation in what has been given them in Christ. You can tell believers they are dead and free from sin in 100 ways but until their eyes are opened they're not going to get it. Meanwhile, they go through a process of becoming a better person and call it a process of sanctification.

You make some very interesting points, Noeb. It is apparent that we all need to grow in grace and knowledge, but it is also true that everything that pertains to life and godliness has already been given to us. I don't know if I fully agree with your position yet, but you gave me something to think about.

Yet what about this passage...

2 Corinthians 3: 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

There are more, but I only have time to post this one.

[amazzin]

Imagine one day people gathering around in a coffee shop and asking that question of us after we die? Imagine how sad that day will be for those who knew us? Imagine How sad God would be that we would waste our time questioning and judging whether we were a heretic or hero?

On this note, since the OP is no longer a member here, this thread is now closed

Sooo, what did we decide? Finney was a heretical hero...or an heroic heretic?

[Slug1]

Is it to late to say "hero"?