Charles Finney: hero or heretic?

[little watchman]

I don't know that much about Charles Finney, and would have to read more than a paragraph or three of his writings to know if allegations against him are fair, but I suspect they're not. His detractors were and are Calvinist. Michael Horton and Phil Johnson are Calvinists. Calvinists deny that man can choose God, but Finney taught that man is enabled by the Spirit of God to accept or reject the free gift of salvation. Therefore Finney's view is, to the Calvinist, tantamount to a false gospel of righteousness by works. It could be that Finney wandered into righteousness by works, which is common among Arminians and semi-Pelagians, but I wouldn't trust axe-grinding Calvinists to judge impartially. As to the evidence that Finney taught a false gospel, that converts from his revivals turned away from the faith, this also appears fabricated by his detractors, as shown here: http://www.gospeltruth.net/nouncertain.htm

Let Charles Finney defend himself:

And now, will you allow me to ask, Where have I done so much to disparage revivals? What churches have I labored in where so much evil has resulted? When have they "wept tears of blood" or any other tears, because of evils that have resulted from my labors? . . . Where, I ask, have I rent churches, introduced divisions, led the church astray, or unsettled pastors? I appeal to those who know. Let those churches and ministers who have been so injured by any fault of mine, speak.
Give us facts, names, dates, places, not hearsay. I have heard much talk; give us truth. Do not tell us what you have heard; tell us what you know, or prove what you say, not by loose report but by credible witnesses. If any such facts as are reported, have occurred under my ministry, tell us when and where. I want to know them myself, and I want others to know them. I ask not that you should speak in my praise, but speak against me and my labors, if you have aught to say. But give your name, your residence, your facts. Publish them in the face of the churches and ministers where they occurred. I will not deny them, if they are true. But I beseech my brethren slander not those glorious revivals. If there ever were genuine revivals, I believe those were such. If there is any true religion in the world, I believe it is found in the mass of those precious converts, who have ever since made up no small portion of the membership of those churches. Things may have resulted to some of those churches of which I am not informed. But I have frequently been at the place where most of them occurred, and I must say that if any churches were blessed by revivals they have been. . . . But enough. For my own sake I would not speak. But for the cause of revivals I will speak. ("Shall American Revivals Enjoy the Sympathy and Confidence of Anglo Saxon Churches?" The Oberlin Evangelist, 7 May. 1851)

[zone]

Let Charles Finney defend himself

Finney taught saints in heaven could lose their salvation due to apostasy and sin, and would persevere there because of terror and fear of hell.

do you think so?

(this is an unavoidable doctrine for him, as you might expect, because of his pelagian foundation. we're never quite sure what Christ's Work accomplished...even for saints in heaven)

I don't know that much about Charles Finney, and would have to read more than a paragraph or three of his writings to know if allegations against him are fair

if you think i am misrepresenting his position(s), and that they sound contradictory...the link is provided...best of luck to you.

LECTURE LXXVI.

PERSEVERANCE OF SAINTS.


Again, the sanctions of law have, and even in heaven will and must have their appropriate influence. But what is their appropriate influence? These sanctions are remuneratory and vindicatory as we have formerly seen. They present all that is naturally desirable as the reward of virtue. They hold forth all that is dreadful and terrible as the reward of sin. The contemplation of these sanctions naturally begets their correlated emotions in all worlds and at all times. The inhabitants of hell no doubt have their desires awakened by a contemplation of the happiness of heaven, while the inhabitants of heaven have their pity, their fears, their dread awakened in view of the torments of hell, and in neither case is it in view of any apprehended uncertainty. The inhabitants of hell know that the joys of heaven are certainly never to be theirs, and the inhabitants of heaven know that the miseries of hell are never to be theirs. Nevertheless the emotions respond to their correlated objects both worlds, and no doubt will as long as mind exists....

...Perseverance in holiness will no doubt be a condition of the saints' abiding in heaven, and since they will be free, and there will be a natural possibility of falling or of sinning, they will then fear to sin....

http://www.gospeltruth.net/1847ST/1847st_lec76.htm

[little watchman]

Finney taught saints in heaven could lose their salvation due to apostasy and sin, and would persevere there because of terror and fear of hell. do you think so?

"...neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28), but consistent with love being a free choice, He will allow us to blaspheme the witness of the Holy Spirit until He will forgive us no more. The "sin unto death" is a conscious choice, not a lapse of judgment or a falling to temptation. It's a refusal to turn to God and accept His grace when we fall into sin. So yes, believers can apostatize. To defend this position would be a large study, not just a few prooftexts.

because of his pelagian foundation

The link I provided strongly suggests Finney was Arminian, not Pelagian. Pelagians thought man has enough innate goodness to come to God, whereas Arminians accept total depravity and say that no one comes to God without the enabling help of the Spirit.

The doctrines of "perseverance of the saints" and "penal substitutionary atonement" are not deal-breakers for me. I think a penal substitutionary theory of some form is unavoidable, and even N. T. Wright acknowledges that Christ died in our place to satisfy the wrath of Father that we deserve, but I don't think I'd break fellowship with someone like Finney who wants to move from "forensic" language to more of a victory-over-the-powers-of evil perspective. After all, triple imputation (Adam's sin to us, our sins imputed to Christ, Christ's righteousness imputed to us) is more of an inference than explicitly stated.

I read the LECTURE LXXVI excerpt and I'm still not sure what to make of it. Doesn't sound like Finney was big on preaching the security of salvation, though.

[aftertheflood]

To Classic Calvinism I can certainly see where he could be considered heretical, particularly given his views and teachings on total depravity (which bear a lot of similarity with Pelagianism). As to whether those who responded at his revivals being saved or not, I am rather sure that many were indeed. As to whether they stayed saved, that would depend on your view of the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints wouldn't it. Like Luther, Finney had a dark side in his character but I have no doubt that God used him just as he did Luther. But I find that I would not want to become like either one!

[Revmitchell]

Total depravity is a core doctrine for Calvinists.

[shepherdsword]

Finney...hero of the faith.

[zone]

"...neither shall anyone snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28), but consistent with love being a free choice, He will allow us to blaspheme the witness of the Holy Spirit until He will forgive us no more. .

the unpardonable sin isn't for christians.

"... The "sin unto death" is a conscious choice, not a lapse of judgment or a falling to temptation. .

if you continue reading you'll see that is to take the believer out of the world so he is not condemned....he dies. its a sin unto death. like taking the Lord's table in an unworthy manner.

It's a refusal to turn to God and accept His grace when we fall into sin. So yes, believers can apostatize. To defend this position would be a large study, not just a few prooftexts..

ya its another topic. but these details are not what finney was about.
he was way out there.

The link I provided strongly suggests Finney was Arminian, not Pelagian. ..

he was both - hands down. he said man does not have a sin nature. he is just selfish and can be "excited" to moral levels sufficient to obey the Law perfectly and thereby be saved.....hence his revival METHODS...emotionalism and fear.

Pelagians thought man has enough innate goodness to come to God, whereas Arminians accept total depravity and say that no one comes to God without the enabling help of the Spirit...

finney was pelagian, with the terror of armenian NO security (which John tells us we may have)

I read the LECTURE LXXVI excerpt and I'm still not sure what to make of it. Doesn't sound like Finney was big on preaching the security of salvation, though.

LOL! for sure....there's no security at all when you are to attain heaven by being as obedient unto death and fulfilling the Law as Jesus did.
even then apparently in heaven the terror of being cast out is enough to force submission through fear...therefore obedience and free will together (?) oh ya....sounds like heaven.

[zone]

Total depravity is a core doctrine for Calvinists.

born in dead and trespasses and sins? good enough?
sinful nature?
in need of a Crucified and Risen Saviour?

that's the Good News (not for Finney though...the good news was his ability to fulfill The Law and never sin)

[Revmitchell]

born in dead and trespasses and sins? good enough?
sinful nature?
in need of a Crucified and Risen Saviour?

I do not know what you are getting at here.

that's the Good News (not for Finney though...the good news was his ability to fulfill The Law and never sin)

What do you base that on?

[Noeb]

He didn't realize that revivals fail over time because the system irons out spiritual life to nothingness. So he could catch a lot of fish...but the factory that processes them was shut down. So the fish just rotted on the pier.

Finney did his job very well...but the system destroys revival by bringing a man-centered agenda as the first consideration.

Huh? Paul didn't even baptize man! Look, either you are born again or you are not. Converts don't die because the system fails. Converts die when they are not good ground.

[Noeb]

born in dead and trespasses and sins? good enough?

What scripture is that?

[Noeb]

Stop there and show me a condition on justification in scripture ? I thought that one is justified by faith ? do you agree or disagree ?

Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

[zone]

What scripture is that?

ummm..serious?


Ephesians 2
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful naturea and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


Colossians 2:13
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins...

Romans 5
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, wea have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And web rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3Not only so, but wec also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

~

and this for those who don't understand why Finney's ideas are heretical:


Romans 5
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[zone]

Look, either you are born again or you are not. Converts don't die because the system fails. Converts die when they are not good ground.

TRUTH!

Huh? Paul didn't even baptize man!

oops...

1 Corinthians 1:14
I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,

[zone]

I do not know what you are getting at here.

you reject calvinism's unfortunate term "total depravity"...i was asking if you say man is dead in trespasses and sin.
sinners...who need a Crucified and Risen Saviour.

What do you base that on?

his writing.