Charles Finney: hero or heretic?

[episkopos]

Finney was reacting to the heresies of his time. People were adopting the easy-believism of name-it claim-it and other human fabrications. He also was seeking to correct the OSAS doctrine that men prefer to the truth. So Finney was anything but man-centered in his approach to issues such as justification.

Finney was lacking in the area of holiness. He was chiefly concerned with keeping away from wilfull sin and maintaining a constant vigil (watch and pray) against the eroding effects of a slack undervaluing of what we are actually doing.

He claimed that "disinterested benevolence" was a higher level than he knew....very honest of him. Of course "disinterested benevolence" is only possible when one is dead to oneself and abiding in Christ. THIS is holiness...to walk EXACTLY as Jesus through grace.

So he was not against this level of walk in Jesus. He was centering on the CONDITIONS by which we walk in a way approved of God. In other words he concentrated on OUR side of the relationship with God. The error he sought to correct is that so many claim that Jesus was obedient INSTEAD of them...thereby promoting a spoiled and sinful "saved" carnal man that destroys the gospel by denying the truth of the grace that transforms us into the very image of Christ.

[zone]

So how do you know you are "saved"?

Are we saved by claiming a verse for ourselves? Are we to ignore our own behaviour in order to justify ourselves and our actions based on a religious holding onto something we have read and probably misunderstood??

whatever gave you the idea i am antinomian?
i'm being sanctified. i know i am because through the working of the Spirit, i've stopped the gross sin i lived in and practised as a lifestyle while blind and lost. in slavery to them.

but the longer i live this Christian life the more i am aware of how much i need Jesus. and i am more and more grateful for the Cross. aren't you?

i no longer practise sin as a lifestyle, i try to practise righteousness, as God has laid out in the scriptures, and as the Holy Spirit leads (Gr: ago). am i perfectly righteous? of course not....very far from it. but i am justified by CHRIST'S Righteousness...not my own.

pruning hurts. fighting the flesh is hard and continual.

what's that got to do with the Biblical Gospel and the fact that it is God Who justifies?

[episkopos]

I have a few simple questions for Zone (whose avoidance will be taken as dishonesty)

1. Is it possible to be dead to sin?

2. Is it possible to walk even as Jesus walked?

[episkopos]

whatever gave you the idea i am antinomian?
i'm being sanctified. i know i am because through the working of the Spirit, i've stopped the gross sin i lived in and practised as a lifestyle while blind and lost. in slavery to them.

but the longer i live this Christian life the more i am aware of how much i need Jesus. and i am more nad more grateful for the Cross. aren't you?

pruning hurts. fighting the flesh is hard and continual.

what's that got to do with the Biblical Gospel and the fact that it is God Who justifies?

One does NOT prune a bad tree...one cuts it down. We must be dead to sin to be alive to Christ. So the cross must cut out the entire old man...no self-improvement.

[zone]

I know, but you mentioned Wesley and said he taught a doctrine of perfectionism that led to legalism. I want to know what Wesley taught that leads to legalism and whatever else you said. If you don't want to answer, ( as it is off topic), that's fine, but too many people issue blanket accusations based on misinformation.

It's kind of like making the blanket accusation that "Calvinism promotes antinomianism", ( an accusation that I would never make, as I do not hold it to be true.). The Arminians and the Calvinists smear each other with accusations that border on hyperbole. Calvinist to Arminian- you have a works bases salvation. Arminian to Calvinist- you say works don't matter. In most cases, none of this is true.

For the record, I strongly disagree with both TULIP and Pelagianism, and the term semi-pelagianism is often nothing more than a religious slur. I believe that God loves all men, and desires all to be saved, and I am not Pelagian in any way at all.

i agree with your comments.
are we to continually guard the gospel? watch for bad theology?
of course.
Finney's theology was wrong.

[glad4mercy]

As to the question, my answer is yes.

As to Finney's theology , like I said I am not familiar enough with his teachings to say with certainty. I just came on here because it sounded interesting, but responded because of the statement made against Wesley.

[zone]

One does NOT prune a bad tree...one cuts it down. We must be dead to sin to be alive to Christ. So the cross must cut out the entire old man...no self-improvement.

no self improvement. i love the way some people manipulate language.
so do you mean to say you personally are perfect, and do not need to "improve"?

we are 'clean' already because we are justified by CHRIST's WORK, and He is Perfect - declared righteous.

(i realize those who trust in themselves don't believe Christ's Righteousness is imputed to them - He was just an example, as Finney would have it, of how much God hates sin. no Substitutionary Atonement).

but are we in practise continually putting to death the works of the flesh?


huh? again with the mixing of ideas in your language...bad trees/tares are cut down, burned.

yes....branches which do not bear fruit are cut off.

branches that are still on the Vine are to bear fruit - they are pruned in order to bear more fruit. or was Jesus wrong?

do you garden at all?

John 15
The Vine and the Branches

1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

[glad4mercy]

what did John say?

1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 John 1:9- If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1- Little children, I write these things unto you, that you sin not...

besides, 1 John 1:8 says nothing about Christians not be able to stop sinning voluntarily. I do not believe in absolute sinless perfection, I believe that God has made it possible to be free and dead to the power of sin. In fact, it is His Will that we be dead and free from sin's power. It is our own will and unbelief that gets in the way. I also believe that it is possible to be purified in heart, and that our hearts can be filled with light, dispelling the darkness. Again, only our own will and our unbelief get in the way.

Before we were saved we were bound and enslaved to sin. Now that we are saved we are no longer in bondage, but are free to live righteously.

[shepherdsword]

An old Finney story

Finney and a policeman where walking down the street talking. The cop said to Finney "Look Charles,there is one of your converts lying in the ditch passed out drunk"

Finney said "Yeah,he must have been one of mine,he certainly wasn't one of the Lord's"

[episkopos]

no self improvement. i love the way some people manipulate language.
so do you mean to say you personally are perfect, and do not need to "improve"?

we are 'clean' already because we are justified by CHRIST's WORK, and He is Perfect - declared righteous.

(i realize those who trust in themselves don't believe Christ's Righteousness is imputed to them - He was just an example, as Finney would have it, of how much God hates sin. no Substitutionary Atonement).

but are we in practise continually putting to death the works of the flesh?


huh? again with the mixing of ideas in your language...bad trees/tares are cut down, burned.

yes....branches which do not bear fruit are cut off.

branches that are still on the Vine are to bear fruit - they are pruned in order to bear more fruit. or was Jesus wrong?

do you garden at all?

John 15
The Vine and the Branches

1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

No man will be judged based on another man's (or Jesus) obedience. This is a religious fabrication that makes many false "conversions" to the present form of churchianity.

WE are called to be obedient and overcome by faith while being IN Christ. This is why Jesus was also resurrected. He is not just a better animal sacrifice that blinds God to the truth. A Christian is learning to understand the power he is already walking in. But we must maintain the death of Jesus in our bodies so that the life of Jesus is made manifest in the world. God doesn't hide sinners behind Jesus...He makes a new creation in Christ and empowers that creation to overcome all things. THAT is the gospel.

[episkopos]

An old Finney story

Finney and a policeman where walking down the street talking. The cop said to Finney "Look Charles,there is one of your converts lying in the ditch passed out drunk"

Finney said "Yeah,he must have been one of mine,he certainly wasn't one of the Lord's"

See the honesty of the man. Finney just lacked in the higher functioning of a holy walk in Christ. Most don't even believe in the power of what Finney lacked (which he plainly admitted to).

Finney was honest. His detractors are not.

[glad4mercy]

No man will be judged based on another man's (or Jesus) obedience. This is a religious fabrication that makes many false "conversions" to the present form of churchianity.

WE are called to be obedient and overcome by faith while being IN Christ. This is why Jesus was also resurrected. He is not just a better animal sacrifice that blinds God to the truth. A Christian is learning to understand the power he is already walking in. But we must maintain the death of Jesus in our bodies so that the life of Jesus is made manifest in the world. God doesn't hide sinners behind Jesus...He makes a new creation in Christ and empowers that creation to overcome all things. THAT is the gospel.

I do believe that Christ fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Law on our behalf so that we could be made righteous before God, but that He also enables us to fulfill the righteousness of the Law as Christians through His Spirit. There is both imputed and imparted righteousness.

[episkopos]

no self improvement. i love the way some people manipulate language.
so do you mean to say you personally are perfect, and do not need to "improve"?

we are 'clean' already because we are justified by CHRIST's WORK, and He is Perfect - declared righteous.

(i realize those who trust in themselves don't believe Christ's Righteousness is imputed to them - He was just an example, as Finney would have it, of how much God hates sin. no Substitutionary Atonement).

but are we in practise continually putting to death the works of the flesh?


huh? again with the mixing of ideas in your language...bad trees/tares are cut down, burned.

yes....branches which do not bear fruit are cut off.

branches that are still on the Vine are to bear fruit - they are pruned in order to bear more fruit. or was Jesus wrong?

do you garden at all?

John 15
The Vine and the Branches

1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

This is too often used as a self-improvement scheme by men who deny that there is such a thing as perfect fruit. Why prune a sinful tree? You are just getting MORE sin out of it. But this logic escapes most in their pursuit of justification for sins.

God will only prune a tree that is producing perfect fruit. The bad trees are cut down.

It is so ironic that those who claim that only Jesus is perfect (so I don't have to be) will also claim to be producing an imperfect fruit that is somehow pleasing to God. Such monumental dishonesty!!!!

[episkopos]

I do believe that Christ fulfilled every jot and tittle of the Law on our behalf so that we could be made righteous before God, but that He also enables us to fulfill the righteousness of the Law as Christians through His Spirit. There is both imputed and imparted righteousness.

Finney would fervently disagree with you..as I do. The bible does not contain such a flawed logic. Jesus didn't only die on the cross...He was raised so that He could impart POWER that is called grace. So we die through the death of Christ so as to be raised IN Him to walk as He walked. So as we abide IN Christ we don't sin...we cannot sin...as long as we are dead to sin and alive to God in Christ. This is what is written and this is what we experience who don't just try to hide our nakedness behind a bush. We need to come clean and be exposed to the truth...die with Jesus on His cross...and be raised into HIS likeness. That is the power of the gospel.

[zone]

1 John 1:9- If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 2:1- Little children, I write these things unto you, that you sin not...

besides, 1 John 1:8 says nothing about Christians not be able to stop sinning voluntarily.

and neither do i.
freed from bondage to sin, raised from spiritual death to life, we now voluntarily stop sinning. we practice stopping it. we work at it. or at least i do.

john is talking about the need to keep turning from sin. why would he discuss confessing our sins if we are to expect to be sinless?

maybe some are perfect. i haven't met any yet. have you?

I do not believe in absolute sinless perfection, I believe that God has made it possible to be free and dead to the power of sin. In fact, it is His Will that we be dead and free from sin's power. It is our own will and unbelief that gets in the way..

AMEN. i absolutely agree. well said.

I also believe that it is possible to be purified in heart, and that our hearts can be filled with light, dispelling the darkness. Again, only our own will and our unbelief get in the way..

really? a pure heart would never sin. ever.
so we're back to perfection again, just called something else.

Wesleyan and other Holiness traditions adjust the perfectionist doctrines to claim we can be perfect at heart, or in intention/motive, that we only ever just make mistakes.

Jesus said however it is out of the heart that sin comes.

your hand doesn't sin, your heart (mind) does.

Before we were saved we were bound and enslaved to sin. Now that we are saved we are no longer in bondage, but are free to live righteously.

amen.

even still, our righteousness as Christians would never be enough to justify us before God. agree?