Charles Finney: hero or heretic?

[Noeb]

Actually, I wouldn't go to chapter 2 for context. Chapter 2 verse 1 points back to what was already said, then Johns clarifies in the rest of the letter. He says

"I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin."

What things?

1Jn 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--
1Jn 1:2 the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us--
1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1Jn 1:4 And we are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.
1Jn 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you,.............

The message from the beginning, from Jesus himself, found in the gospels. The message John heard was

............that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Apparently Jesus himself said
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
So you have to ask yourself where Jesus said that, don't you?
and if this is what it says then why would we say John was saying we have to sin, then he turned around and said sin not and those born of God do not sin?


John wrote what Jesus taught
"If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin."
in hopes it would make them stop sinning. A church seduced

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

Seduced with gnosticism -they could continue in sin. Read 2:2-25. They are the things written concerning their seduction.

Read 1Jo:5-10 then what Jesus taught

Joh 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

Joh 5:38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe the one whom he has sent.
Joh 5:39 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
Joh 5:40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Joh 5:42 But I know that you do not have the love of God within you.

Joh 5:47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

Joh 8:7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her."

Joh 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

Joh 8:37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you.

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Joh 8:46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
Joh 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

Joh 12:46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.


As a side. Compare
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1Jn 2:21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


and
Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,

1Jn 2:24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

It's fascinating to compare the two books. This is not a thorough comparison.
John wasn't telling believers they all sin and if they think they don't they are deceiving themselves and the truth is not in them. Jesus came in the beginning and his message was all have sin. No one can cast a stone. Those that confess will be forgiven and have eternal life. This is what John heard and proclaimed in the letter. He's talking to a confused, seduced church, telling them what Jesus told him, so that they may "have joy", "sin not" and "know they have eternal life" because some have been seduced with gnosticism.

The last time he said why he wrote to them.
1Jn 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.
How can you know? What did John write?
1Jn 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.
1Jn 5:5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

[episkopos]

you mean rather than facing/explaining john's record that if we (redeemed christians) say we have (present tense) no sin we (he included himself) deceive ourselves. but that's to be expected.

some people refuse to admit to themselves, and to the church (for her edification and communion with her in her in struggles) that they sin...i don't care if its once a year, a month or daily. anyone who says they have no sin is a liar.

and its for this reason new believers end up either shipwrecked when they discover to their horror they still stumble (James said we ALL stumble in MANY ways); or they end up hypocrites who hide their sin and do not confess it.

its very common unfortunately.

Actually it is when we come to the light and expose our sins that we receive the grace to overcome them.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The problem is with a gospel that only goes half-way and does not continue on to make overcomers by apprehending the resurrection aspect of the sacrifice of Jesus. So a half a gospel just compounds the problem...like morphine...it drugs someone rather than healing them.

you have so far failed to tell me exactly what Christ was doing on the Cross.

and you denied Christ's Righteousness is imputed to, or reckoned to, or covers the christian.

you uphold Finney's theology.

so how can you now say your perfection is IN Christ, when you deny imputed righteousness?

Because WE must die....and let Christ take over. So there is nothing...good or bad...that we keep from our old lives. ALL things are become new...nothing is brought over because it is tainted with sin.

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

That little word...ALL...is missing from the theology of most of what is preached today.

what good does it do you to be IN Christ if His Righteousness is not credited to your account? do you think you could even be IN Christ if Father hadn't DECLARED you clean on Christ's account?

That's not how reality works. His righteousness is declared to the one who forsakes his own life to walk IN Christ. We are acting then IN Christ. In reality.

nd i'm telling you i do understand Grace.
i'm also telling you no (not one) christian i know except those who deny imputed righteousness and substitutionary atonement claims to be without sin. NONE.

Then you still don't understand grace.

its you who doesn't appear to have a consistent gospel....so forgive me for having to ask for so much clarification. it should be easy to preach the gospel....if one knows it.

you've failed to explain the Cross, and your explanation of/reason for the Resurrection - so Jesus could only then impart power, that we could then fulfill the requirements of Law is the Galatian heresy.

The Galatian heresy was to try to be good without walking in the Spirit...that is..teaching that effort will stop us from sinning. This is actually what you are left to without the power that ALREADY overcomes sin. This, ironically is what you are doing under the banner of an "imputed righteousness". It only appears to be good on the outside...but it has no power to transform the inside. This is why the church is mocked in the world.

but it matches Finney reasonably well.

Very good!!

huh?



anyways.....

really? i don't know anyone who hasn't already walked away after an emotional altar call at a hyped-up manmade revival who says Christ does everything instead of me - concerning MY stopping MY sin....and MY practising righteosuness and MY striving to live right and work towards godliness.

This striving is according to you trying to obey the law...it is not yet rooted in Christ. So you are following the Galatians by trying to be good in your own power.

Christ died and paid the penalty for my sin...instead of me.
and He lived a perfectly seamless obedient life under The Law (fulfilling it perfectly) for me....since The Law can not save me.

This is the wrong way to see it. It's not Instead it is FOR. And what for? To bring many sons to the obedience of faith. Jesus was also resurrected to give us a new life...you don't respond to this truth in the many times I have cited this.

the Law and Prophets were UNTIL JOHN....

can the law save you?

one thing i'm working on is more tolerance for the perfectionist crowd. i am remembering to try to show them mercy and kindness instead of derision - after all, they're utterly self-deceived and likely will be speechless at the wedding, as they appear in their own garments....ultimately, and compared to Christ's Righteousness, but filthy rags.

they teach another gospel. and their Jesus, like Finneys, was merely an example.

Spiritual things do appear like foolishness..that is until the power is experienced...then it all makes sense. But even if you have not yet experienced the power, at least don't take away from the testimony of the bible. Say rather..."I don't understand this grace that makes one overcome all things...but the bible says it is there if we abide in Christ." Then you will be wise.

here you deny imputed righteousness - reckoned/declared righteous by God based on Christ's Finished Work, and say that now that 'the standard" Christ's Perfection has been revealed, THAT'S the ground on which we must stand - our own goodness/good works/righteousness - you denied the good works later.

The imputes error is a slippery slope of name-it claim-it self-justification.

here you contradict yourself:



and here you claim a mixture, with personal philosophy and interpretation:



are you unable to do anything that is not in Christ?

Again if you understood grace you would see that the cross of Christ crucifies (sticks to the wall) the old sin factory so that the grace of Christ makes us into a new man where EVERYTHING is now new. What sins does God re-create anew in us IN Christ? You fail to understand the gospel and it's power.

have you sinned since conversion? (i don't expect an answer at this point - just asking)

Yes I have...

another denial that Christ's Righteousness is our covering and entirely the ground of our salvation. ridiculing the idea that God Himself in His infinite Wisdom is ablethrough Christ's Work to justify the ungodly:

It is one thing to use a biblical cliché but yet another to put it in the right context. God does not justify the sinner...but He rescues the sinner BEFORE he is godly...by making him godly.

and those this SOUNDS like the gospel, its your claim to sinlessness. and you know it:

Again you accuse me without understanding...I have never claimed to be sinless. You do not understand what I am saying..but then you have not yet understood what you are reading...

we cannot sin....have you ever bothered to see what the greek actually says?
cannot abide in sin...practise it as a lifestyle. nowhere, anywhere does the bible say it is impossible for christians to sin.

you don't seem to understand what the centuries of the levitical system were foreshadowing. what Christ as High Priest does for the christian.

and again a nod to Finney - who was a flat-out heretic and denied every core doctrine of scripture.

This is how it appears to you...that is all...

what's this?



you sinned before conversion...but not since. correct?

anyways....thanks for your time.
zone.

May the Lord give you grace!!!!

[episkopos]

There are some things that Christ fulfilled in our stead, ( because of His perfect obedience to the Law and His sacrificial death we don't have to offer blood offerings and keep the ceremonial aspects of the Law, and of course as the Lamb of God He took away our sins, separating us from our sins as far as the East is from the West, something we could have never accomplished for ourselves). There are other things that He fulfills through us, ( and we must submit ourselves to Him in order for it to be done). Christ fulfilled all righteousness for us, ( "...for their sake, I sanctify myself..."), and He also fulfills the righteous requirements of God in us, ( that the righteousness of the Law may be fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.)

Yes!!! Only Christ could redeem us from sin and death. We were condemned in Adam...aliens from God. But the blood of Christ has brought ALL MEN near. But not all men turn their lives to God in Christ in order to begin life again in the new creation. We are living now in a time of grace. But this grace doesn't cover our sins...Once the cross has done it's work in our lives...obliterating sin.... then the grace kicks in by giving us a new life according to God in the Spirit.

[episkopos]

Episcopos, the reason I believe in imputed righteousness is because of the reality of something called "sins of omission". In the Lord's prayer there are two versions, one says forgive us of our debts and the other says forgive us of our trespasses. I suppose debts refer to sins of omission and trespasses refer to sins of commission. Not only did the sins we committed by doing evil need to be covered, but our sins of omission had to be dealt with, ( the debts needed to be paid.). Christ's perfect life is what made Him the spotless lamb of God. The sinless one became sin for us, so that we could become righteousness in Him. God could not justify us until all righteousness was fulfilled, and we were powerless to fulfill it prior to justification and regeneration, ( which we both agreed earlier is similtaneous.) So Christ fulfilled all righteousness so that we could be justified

We were forgiven for all past sins whether through omission or commission. But the new life in Christ has us doing the perfect works that were prepared from before creation...how about that for not having to worry what we are NOT doing!!!

[episkopos]

I would like to post a few questions for everyone.

1. What is the definition of justification?

Free from condemnation.

2. On what grounds or basis does God justify us?

Faith and obedience.

3. What are the conditions of justification?

A humble and contrite heart.

4. Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?

Both!!! What God has miraculously endowed to us He wishes for us to grow into....so that we can truly learn to love as He loves.

Later, I will answer these questions as well.

Very well!!! God bless you!!

[glad4mercy]

I deleted this post, but since Episcopos already answered it I will repost it.

I would like to post a few questions for everyone.

1. What is the definition of justification?
2. On what grounds or basis does God justify us?
3. What are the conditions of justification?
4. Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?

Later, I will answer these questions as well.

[glad4mercy]

Free from condemnation.





Faith and obedience.


A humble and contrite heart.



Both!!! What God has miraculously endowed to us He wishes for us to grow into....so that we can truly learn to love as He loves.



Very well!!! God bless you!!

Thank you for your response! God bless you as well.

[Watchman]

1. What is the definition of justification?

Being justified is the same as being made righteous. Both mean one is in right standing with God, free from guilt, and acceptable to Him.

2. On what grounds or basis does God justify us?

We are justified on the grounds of faith.

3. What are the conditions of justification?

Living faith.

4. Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?

Sanctification means to be set apart, to be made holy. It is both an event and a process, the process being the daily dying to ourselves and living unto Him.

These are very short answers, but complete enough for the sake of discussion.

[glad4mercy]

Being justified is the same as being made righteous. Both mean one is in right standing with God, free from guilt, and acceptable to Him.


We are justified on the grounds of faith.


Living faith.


Sanctification means to be set apart, to be made holy. It is both an event and a process, the process being the daily dying to ourselves and living unto Him.

These are very short answers, but complete enough for the sake of discussion.

Thank you, Watchman!

[Watchman]

Thank you, Watchman!

You're welcome...looking forward to reading your answers!

W

[zone]

Again if you understood grace you would see that the cross of Christ crucifies (sticks to the wall) the old sin factory so that the grace of Christ makes us into a new man where EVERYTHING is now new. What sins does God re-create anew in us IN Christ? You fail to understand the gospel and it's power. [etc etc etc etc etc]

previously: have you sinned since conversion?

Yes I have.

Again you accuse me without understanding...I have never claimed to be sinless.

You do not understand what I am saying..but then you have not yet understood what you are reading.

oh i understand.
i hear it all the time.
those of us who admit readily we're not without sin have to go 10 rounds with perfectionists and be portrayed as carnal/not saved/not new/licentious/using the Cross as a drug and so on....until the truth comes out.

that's why the church is ridiculed.
its called hypocricy.

anyway....now that we have both admitted we're not yet perfect, by all means let us exhort one another daily to continue putting away the deeds of the flesh and striving for the goal.

may the Lord continue to bless you and keep you in His grace and lovingkindness,
zone.

[zone]

Episcopos, the reason I believe in imputed righteousness is because of the reality of something called "sins of omission". In the Lord's prayer there are two versions, one says forgive us of our debts and the other says forgive us of our trespasses. I suppose debts refer to sins of omission and trespasses refer to sins of commission. Not only did the sins we committed by doing evil need to be covered, but our sins of omission had to be dealt with, ( the debts needed to be paid.). Christ's perfect life is what made Him the spotless lamb of God. The sinless one became sin for us, so that we could become righteousness in Him. God could not justify us until all righteousness was fulfilled, and we were powerless to fulfill it prior to justification and regeneration, ( which we both agreed earlier is similtaneous.) So Christ fulfilled all righteousness so that we could be justified

amen.
this is very Good News.

[glad4mercy]

I deleted this post, but since Episcopos already answered it I will repost it.

I would like to post a few questions for everyone.

1. What is the definition of justification?
2. On what grounds or basis does God justify us?
3. What are the conditions of justification?
4. Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?

Later, I will answer these questions as well.

I was going to hold out on my answers for a day or so to get a few more responses, but I may be away from the forums for several days, so I will post my answers and come back in about a week and see what happens.

1. What is the definition of justification?

Justification is the act of God in which He declares a sinner to be righteous by grace through faith. A sinner is declared righteous through Justification, becomes a child of God through adoption, a new creation through regeneration, and set apart from sin to God through sanctification. ( some of these overlap a bit.)

Justification, Regeneration, adoption, and intitial sanctification occur similtaneously.

2. On what grounds or basis does God justify us?

The finished work of Christ and our faith in Him and what He has done. Works can play no role in initial justification, for good works cannot cancel out sinful deeds. A perfect sacrifice had to be made in order for the debt of sin to be paid. "I had a debt I could not pay, and it was growing everyday, but Jesus paid it all for me."

3. What are the conditions of justification?

Repentance towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

4. Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?

Both. The process of sanctification begins at regeneration, and we continually grow in holiness, fruitfullness, and Christian virtue. Even a person whose heart God has purified needs to grow in grace and knowledge, and there is also a need to run the race with patience without drawing back, (and to keep our garments clean.)

Blessings to all.

[episkopos]

previously: have you sinned since conversion?







oh i understand.
i hear it all the time.
those of us who admit readily we're not without sin have to go 10 rounds with perfectionists and be portrayed as carnal/not saved/not new/licentious/using the Cross as a drug and so on....until the truth comes out.

that's why the church is ridiculed.
its called hypocricy.

anyway....now that we have both admitted we're not yet perfect, by all means let us exhort one another daily to continue putting away the deeds of the flesh and striving for the goal.

may the Lord continue to bless you and keep you in His grace and lovingkindness,
zone.

How did I know this was coming? LOL We could call this thread a reduction zone. At least Finney was spared the exercise.

[glad4mercy]

since there is a disagreement regarding imputed righteousness, may I ask all who care to answer how you personally define "imputed righteousness", and if you are opposed to this teaching, would you please let me know what it is you object to? I think some of the misunderstandings and disagreements may be due to semantics, and I am interested in seeing if this is the case. I think various Christians have differences of opinion on what "imputed righteousness" means.

I am now logging off and will be away from the forums for a few days, but I look forward to hearing what you all have to say.