Iconography = Idolatry?!?

[JollyRoger1970]

Some denominations place a tremendous emphasis on iconography, such as precisely drawn paintings, in their worship. I have heard that this practice is nothing more than idolatry. Can anyone shed light on the subject?

Thanks!

[pilgrim77]

Some denominations place a tremendous emphasis on iconography, such as precisely drawn paintings, in their worship. I have heard that this practice is nothing more than idolatry. Can anyone shed light on the subject?

Thanks!

I don't necessarily agree that we need to have precisely drawn pictures in our worship. but I don't think it could called idolatry unless they worship the pictures or icons as a god. So, unless that's the case, "Idolatry" would be too strong a word for it.

[JollyRoger1970]

Thanks for the response. That would be the distinction I guess. If the icons are not approached as deity then I suppose an argument could be made that icons, along with music, incense are means to worship God. However, how does that gel with the admonition in Exodus that we have no graven images?

[PJW]

If "they" can spit on it, it is not an idol. "They" say it is not an idol, but is it sacrilege to spit on it?
If "yes", then it is an idol.

[Noeb]

Thanks for the response. That would be the distinction I guess. If the icons are not approached as deity then I suppose an argument could be made that icons, along with music, incense are means to worship God. However, how does that gel with the admonition in Exodus that we have no graven images?

Because the context is
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
.....
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

[Quickened]

This is an interesting topic to me. I grew up Roman Catholic so there were images everywhere. In the church in the form of statues or stained glass. Carvings on the building. To in the home. Little statues of the saints and even the rosary has mary engraved on it.

This really boils down to the second commandment. It's interesting how legalistic people can be about the bible but one of the longer commandments is usually overlooked for one reason or another. God said not to makes images of anything. One of the bigger sins of Israel was the golden calf. They had said "This is the God who brought you out of Egypt". In their eyes they weren't making a different God but their own understanding and comprehension of what God is or should/would look like.

This still happens today. Romanists do it by and large because they don't read or have a full comprehension of Scripture. Why other denominations outside of Rome use images is beyond me. The church has been split on this issue since around 600-800 AD.

[Adstars]

Iconography has become mostly a tradition of the eastern orthodox churches who have a lot in common with the catholic church in their idolatry. They will say that these paintings are not idols but they are. You can imagine what would happen if you went into their temple and grabbed one and threw it on the ground. They would go ape.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[BroRog]

Here is how I think about it.

In times past it was common to represent the deity with an image, the sun for example, or an eagle, lion, calf, or a women with lots of breasts. In any case, the image conveys the idea that the deity shares many of the same qualities as the think depicted. Someone might say, "our god is like the sun in that like the sun he watches over us on a daily basis, providing things necessary for life such as light, and warmth, which causes the crops to grow. Also, our god is like the sun in that like the sun, he exposes the darkness of places where evil men do their evil deeds, and his light provides knowledge and wisdom."

When THE God decided to establish a religion in Israel, he taught Israel, through the second commandment, to understand that he was wholly different and much bigger than any object found in his creation. THE God of all creation can't be represented by anything in this creation. The creator is unique and different and holy and special, and any particular thing in this creation would not represent him as he really is. So God commanded Israel to not make an image to place in the holy seat in the temple. Show angels bowing down to seat which appears to be empty, but represents a God who is invisible.

Inside the box is the Law; covering the Law is the seat of mercy. Inside the box is the rod of Aaron's authority; covering the rod is the seat of mercy. Inside the box is the sign of God's supernatural provision of food, the mana; and again covering the box is the seat of mercy where even the angels bow down to God. And just as there is NOT anything in this creation that might represent God; there is not anything in this creation that would keep us from God's mercy. Not even the angels can get between us and God. The mercy seat found in the Holy of Holies is a reminder of the truth that nothing in this world can keep us away from the love of God; not angels, not authorities, not laws -- nothing can keep us from God's loving us and his mercy is granted to all who seek it in honest humility.

[GitRDunn]

Thanks for the response. That would be the distinction I guess. If the icons are not approached as deity then I suppose an argument could be made that icons, along with music, incense are means to worship God. However, how does that gel with the admonition in Exodus that we have no graven images?

Because the context is
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
.....
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:

Noeb answered your question well. It is not any graven image that is forbidden, it is the context of the graven images. In the case of the golden calf, they were worshiping the calf instead of God, which is why it was wrong.

If "they" can spit on it, it is not an idol. "They" say it is not an idol, but is it sacrilege to spit on it?
If "yes", then it is an idol.

This is complete hogwash. There are many things I would not spit on, but that doesn't mean they are idols, I just have a respect for them. I would not spit on any book, including the Bible, because I respect books and spitting on something is disrespectful. I respect the effort put into creating them, the hard work of the book binders, of the editors and authors, of those who transported the books to somewhere I could buy them, etc. That doesn't mean every book in the world is an idol for me. I also wouldn't spit on you, but you aren't an idol to me. I wouldn't spit on my computer, but my computer isn't an idol to me. Being able to go around and spit on anything without hesitation is a sign that you don't respect anything and the effort that went into creating it. It has nothing to do with the items being idols, but everything to do with you not understanding how to properly appreciate something without having to go to the extent of worshiping it.

Iconography has become mostly a tradition of the eastern orthodox churches who have a lot in common with the catholic church in their idolatry. They will say that these paintings are not idols but they are. You can imagine what would happen if you went into their temple and grabbed one and threw it on the ground. They would go ape.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

As I would "go ape" if you came into my church and started destroying stuff that was not yours. That has nothing to do with the item being an idol.

The understanding of idolatry by many Christians today does not match the idolatry discussed in the Bible at all. It is amazing to me how far people can blow some concepts out of proportion. Many times the concept of idolatry is used by someone trying to control other Christians (this isn't directed at anyone here, this paragraph is all in general). Do you want more offerings in the offering plate on Sunday? Give a sermon about how money is an idol for everyone. Want more people to help out at church? Explain to them how going to your son's soccer game instead of helping out at the church is turning your love for your child into an idol. The craziness just goes on and on.

[MaryFreeman]

My pastor had a very good way of telling when something was threatening to become an idol in your life.... And it is really quite simple.... Anything that takes Gods place in your life is an idol.... If there is always something else or something better to do with your time than to give it all to Him....That thing or even that activity is an idol.... And there is scripture to tell you that everything you do and say is your worship to God.... This is how you truly worship God....


Rom 12:1 BBE For this reason I make request to you, brothers, by the mercies of God, that you will give your bodies as a living offering, holy, pleasing to God, which is the worship it is right for you to give him.

We present ourselves to God as a living sacrifice.... Everything we say and do becomes our offering to Him.... This is how we worship.... If anything gets in the way.... If we present ourselves to anything else the way we do God.... It is idolatry....

[Br. Barnabas]

Icons were declared not to be idolatry in 787 AD at the Second Counsel of Nicea.

Before going any further it is important to understand the history and use of icons in worship and history. Icons were developed as spiritual paintings mainly to be used for those who could not read the Gospels. They became a painted form of the Gospel and Bible telling Biblical stories through sacred artwork. So in a society that was mostly working class and did not have the time to learn to read or the funds to buy expensive books, they could go to church and gaze and mediate on the Gospel by looking at the icons, even if someone was not present to read from the Bible.

So just as many of us now read and mediate on or contemplate on the Scriptures, the Orthodox Christians mediate on and contemplate on the icons. Icons can be a way to visually fix your eye on something so that your thoughts don't stray when praying to or contemplating about God.

Icons are meant to show the spiritual depiction of the person in the icon, which is why they are not painted in a realist style like many of the later Roman Catholic images. We are not to confuse them with the actual representation of the person or even, but it is to show the spiritual image/nature of the person or even.

Many of the Early Church Fathers, especially St. John of Damascus, referred to the icons of the church as the image of the Gospel. Just as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were the written representations of the Gospel, so were the icons painted representations of the Gospels.

We give young children picture Bibles so that they can try to understand the Bible before they can read or fully understand the Bible. The Early Church gave the illiterate icons so they could fully understand the Gospel.

If we think about the icons in similar terms as a Bible then, I think you will find many people who would not spit on their Bible or put it on the ground and trample on it, because it is the words of God, neither would an Orthodox Christian trample or spit on the Bible they would not spit or trample on the icons because they are viewed in the same way. Or take whatever is most sacred in your church and think about spitting on or defacing that and you might come close to understanding what many Christians feel about the icons.

The last issue to point out is that Christ became an Icon for us and he is the prime example of an icon. Before Christ no one had seen God face to face, Christ came to show us God. He is our Icon of the Father, John 14:9 "Anyone who has seen me as seen the Father." Part of the reason Jesus lived among us was to allow us to get to know God by being the image of God in our space.

So no icons are not idolatry, as confirmed by the 7th ecumenical council of the church in 787, they are a spiritual aid to the church and offer a different viewpoint of worship.

[JollyRoger1970]

Thanks Brother Barnabas. Your points are very well articulated and right true to me. Jesus is the ultimate Icon for Christians. We gaze upon Christ we are gazing upon God.

[PJW]

Is the koran an idol?
Moslems won't even allow it to be translated into another language. They would kill you for "desecrating" it. (see; soldiers in Afganistan)
If we were to treat the bible the same way, it would certainly be an idol.
Try to burn an American flag, and watch the idol worshippers come out of the woodwork.
The "stuff" of the earth is just atoms and molecules and globs and chunks. If you consider ANYTHING to be "holy" you have turned it into an idol. God is holy, and nothing else. Not statues, pictures, beads, cards, water, oil, crucifixes, lands, manger scenes, books, buildings, or anything else.
I love God. Not "things".

[John 8:32]

So no icons are not idolatry, as confirmed by the 7th ecumenical council of the church in 787, they are a spiritual aid to the church and offer a different viewpoint of worship.

They are not my authority.

Christ is not an icon.

I guess you could rightly label me an iconoclast.

[Br. Barnabas]

They are not my authority.

Christ is not an icon.

I guess you could rightly label me an iconoclast.

Well I am sorry you do not respect the authority of the universal church. But Christ is an Icon, even if you don't believe he is. You not believing something does not unmake it or make it not true, the truth does not work that way.