Here's a question I've been chewing on....

[MaryFreeman]

Perhaps you would prefer if our lives had no meaning? Oh, wait, we're supposed to enjoy ourselves. And acquire as much stuff as possible. Right?

Fenris I have not been sarcastic and rude with you.... Do me a favor and stop being that way with me...

Adam was in heaven, pretty much. He was in Eden. He had nothing to do but enjoy God's company.

Eden is on earth.... Heaven is not....

[MaryFreeman]

Bottom line is our soul comes FROM God. He creates our soul, and at death our soul returns to the creator(being if we are saved and stuff.)
Also, just as Adam was formed from dust(men are dirt, HA!) our bodies will return to dust.

Our soul is our mind and our emotions and our will.... Which were created at the moment of our conception.... Which happens in our mothers womb.... Which happens to be here on earth.... We did not start life in any form in Heaven....

Now it is time to get back to the ORIGINAL POST....

The question is would Adam have sinned if there was no serpent?

[Fenris]

Fenris I have not been sarcastic and rude with you.... Do me a favor and stop being that way with me...

I leave the debate to people who are more patient than me.

I'm out.

[MoreMercy]

All of this is recorded in the first four chapters of the first book of our bibles, folks.

MaryFreeman,
Paradise, Heaven(singular), both of these things mean; what is where surrounds God's presence(where God is).
I think Fenris knows this, I think he just plays with your lack of memory and/or study.

Fenris,
This place you called down here: earth, is God's fallen garden He chose this place of all the places He created, He chose this place to build a garden for His throne to rest on. The throne He will rule all of the heavens and this Earth from upon.
He created man later on the last day of His creating, and He did create man to be a tender to this garden His throne will rest to rule earth and its creatures from and to rule all of His other creations in the heavens(plural) from too, but eternally.

The place you called: down here, as if we were cast down here....
We were not cast down here, we were created from here, to tend here His garden, and someday again His eternal throne here too.
I am honored to live even in this fallen garden which will some day be His throne an home to all of His creations here and in the heavens(plural), again, but eternally.

He could have just pronounce man dead when man disobeyed and turn good function into dysfunction, He could have just quickly killed man and raised His garden from fallen to rest His throne here again with nothing remaining fallen, and eternally.
But He did stay, He left here and did not kill us, He left His now still fallen garden so we could live and not die and wait for our redemption to returning to full-function to tend here this un-fallen/fully-functioning good garden of all gardens.
He just made plan for man to be redeemed so He could come here again with His throne in the garden, keeping us as intended to tend His favorite place made into a garden as the seat for His throne to rule all His creatures and all of His other creations in the heavens(plural)



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

[claybevan]

All of this is recorded in the first four chapters of the first book of our bibles, folks.

MaryFreeman,
Paradise, Heaven(singular), both of these things mean; what is where surrounds God's presence(where God is).
I think Fenris knows this, I think he just plays with your lack of memory and/or study.

Fenris,
This place you called down here: earth, is God's fallen garden He chose this place of all the places He created, He chose this place to build a garden for His throne to rest on. The throne He will rule all of the heavens and this Earth from upon.
He created man later on the last day of His creating, and He did create man to be a tender to this garden His throne will rest to rule earth and its creatures from and to rule all of His other creations in the heavens(plural) from too, but eternally.

The place you called: down here, as if we were cast down here....
We were not cast down here, we were created from here, to tend here His garden, and someday again His eternal throne here too.
I am honored to live even in this fallen garden which will some day be His throne an home to all of His creations here and in the heavens(plural), again, but eternally.

He could have just pronounce man dead when man disobeyed and turn good function into dysfunction, He could have just quickly killed man and raised His garden from fallen to rest His throne here again with nothing remaining fallen, and eternally.
But He did stay, He left here and did not kill us, He left His now still fallen garden so we could live and not die and wait for our redemption to returning to full-function to tend here this un-fallen/fully-functioning good garden of all gardens.
He just made plan for man to be redeemed so He could come here again with His throne in the garden, keeping us as intended to tend His favorite place made into a garden as the seat for His throne to rule all His creatures and all of His other creations in the heavens(plural)



Father bless those who look to you, but have mercy on all of us to glorify your name.

That's a strange way of explaining things, makes it sound as though we were created as glorified gardeners?

[EarlyCall]

Another poster on here asked if there was no serpent would Adam and Eve have sinned?

I honestly don't know....

Do you?

It's a good question. All we can really do, I think, is speculate, but it is an interesting exercise all the same.

First, Adam and Eve were created without sin or a sin nature. They were actually perfect creations. But then again so was satan and he fell.

You have two things going against Adam and Eve though: one being satan an active tempter and the tree they were forbidden to eat from which was a passive temptation.

How many days did they choose to not eat from the tree? Would they have done so eventually just as satan eventually made his fateful decision to rebel against God? Who can say?

But they had two things going for them: one they were created perfect and without sin or the sin nature and two, they had the closest relationship with god that anyone has ever had other than Jesus Himself - before the fall that is.

Like you, I don't know the answer. While God foresaw this and planned accordingly, He did not bring it about. God's sovereignty is sometimes like time travel.

[percho]

Bottom line is our soul comes FROM God. He creates our soul, and at death our soul returns to the creator(being if we are saved and stuff.)
Also, just as Adam was formed from dust(men are dirt, HA!) our bodies will return to dust.

I guess you are going to give scripture for that?

[percho]

It's a good question. All we can really do, I think, is speculate, but it is an interesting exercise all the same.

First, Adam and Eve were created without sin or a sin nature. They were actually perfect creations. But then again so was satan and he fell.

You have two things going against Adam and Eve though: one being satan an active tempter and the tree they were forbidden to eat from which was a passive temptation.

How many days did they choose to not eat from the tree? Would they have done so eventually just as satan eventually made his fateful decision to rebel against God? Who can say?

But they had two things going for them: one they were created perfect and without sin or the sin nature and two, they had the closest relationship with god that anyone has ever had other than Jesus Himself - before the fall that is.

Like you, I don't know the answer. While God foresaw this and planned accordingly, He did not bring it about. God's sovereignty is sometimes like time travel.

The answer is obvious and I answered it. The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, before Adam was created and therefore Adam was going to sin. Adam was created able to die for the reason I posted earlier. So God through his only begotten sinless Son of whom Adam was the first type could die and destroy death and Satan by being bestowed with the promise God made before time began, eternal life. The grace of God. Look close and you can see death the result of sin in Gen 1:2. Adam brought death to all men.

I do not chisel anything in stone so correct me where wrong.

[MaryFreeman]

I leave the debate to people who are more patient than me.

I'm out.

Well this is disappointing....

[claybevan]

No it is not more than that.... Like I told Fenris.... The creation of Adam was done here on earth.... He did not exist before then.... Period....

God does not change.... He was the same yesterday as He is today and He will be the same tomorrow.... He doesn't have a supply of people waiting in heaven for bodies.... Otherwise it would have been recorded in the creation story.... God would have wanted us to know that....

Mary, I know I don't explain myself very well, I don't for one minute believe that we were lined up in heaven speculating about where we might end up on earth, neither do I believe as I think the mormons do that we were spirit babies. I know nature didn't come before spirit except we were in God's thoughts, he had a mind to make us, so in a way? guess I was trying to diffuse the situation a bit, but it didn't work.

[David Taylor]

So you say even in the absence of a tempter Adam would have found occasion to sin?

No scripture tells us this.

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"

Ecclesiastes 7:20 "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. "

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. "

[Watchman]

No scripture tells us this.

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"

Ecclesiastes 7:20 "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. "

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

Romans 8:6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. "

Yes...and all of these passages were penned after the Fall...which renders them inapplicable.

[percho]

Yes...and all of these passages were penned after the Fall...which renders them inapplicable.

Where is it written, Fall, fall from what? I know what you mean after he sinned but why do we call it, after the fall?

[MaryFreeman]

Where is it written, Fall, fall from what? I know what you mean after he sinned but why do we call it, after the fall?

Refers to a fall from grace.... Or a fall from the position man was in before sin entered the garden....

[percho]

Refers to a fall from grace.... Or a fall from the position man was in before sin entered the garden....

Isn't that what this thread/OP is about? Yes I think he would have sinned. He wasn't created under grace and did not fall from grace. He was created under the concept of the law even though the law had not been given yet. Adam transgressed God the one lawgiver. Sin is the transgression of the law.