Prophets in the church...Ephesians 4

[Watchman]

Ephesians 4:1-16 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equippingof the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

In another thread, regarding Holy Spirit baptism and tongues, the topic of prophets arose. Rather than continue hijacking that thread, here’s one devoted solely to the topic of prophets in the church. Based upon the passage above (and some others), I posit that prophets are as much needed nowadays as they were needed in the early days of the church. What say ye?

blessings,

Watchman

[zone]

Ephesians 4:1-16 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equippingof the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

In another thread, regarding Holy Spirit baptism and tongues, the topic of prophets arose. Rather than continue hijacking that thread, here’s one devoted solely to the topic of prophets in the church. Based upon the passage above (and some others), I posit that prophets are as much needed nowadays as they were needed in the early days of the church. What say ye?

blessings,

Watchman

i spose i need some clarification on your position.

Q: why the 1900+ year GAP in the 'five-fold ministry'?

Q: is it your assertion there have been authoritative prophets throughout church history or is it that the office/gift has been revived?

one explanation i hear is that the church has been mired in apostasy and unbelief all this time, and God needed to re-establish church government.

Q: is God revealing new information today? what part of His Plan needs clarification by modern prophets?

Q: are you an authoritative prophet? how does God speak to you?

[BroRog]

Many Bible teachers teach this passage as if Paul is talking about spiritual gifts in terms of an office or an ability that each person in the church is to receive. Under this view, Paul is discussing supernatural empowerment for Christian ministry that all believers are given. Being an apostle is one gift that Christ might give to an individual. Being a teacher or a pastor is another gift that Christ might give to an individual. According to this interpretation, Christ went up to heaven so that he might give each individual believer in the congregation a supernatural empowerment of some kind.

I think upon closer examination of the passage, we would discover that the gifts are not powers or offices given to individuals, but rather the gifts are men given to the church at large. For instance, Paul quotes a passage from the Old Testament, in which the Septuagint translation says, "He gave gifts OF men." This makes sense in terms of the activity being portrayed. The picture is this. A king or a general goes to battle with the enemy. And upon his return home he brings prisoners of war with him. The host of captives are the gifts he gives to his people.

The next thing to note is that many translations supply a verb in verse 4:11 that is not in the original text. For instance, the translation above says,

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers . . .

The Greek text doesn't have the words "to be". In other words, Paul isn't saying that Christ gave the gift of apostleship to men. He is saying that Christ gave apostles to the church. Christ went out and captured some men, and he gave these men to the church. Paul is a primary example. Christ captured Paul while Paul was on the road to Damascus, giving his church an apostle to the Gentiles. Take out the verb "to be" and it reads perfectly fine and conveys Paul's point.

And He Himself gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers . . .

Christ is giving us men, not spiritual powers as such. Some of these men have supernatural powers (such as apostles) but some of them don't have supernatural powers (such as teacher or pastor.) The main point is, Christ has captured these men and given them to the church. The men are the gifts to the church.

Why is Paul bringing this up?

To fully understand Paul's point it is helpful to read the rest of his writings with the question in mind. How did Paul understand his own ministry? How did he look at it? How did he describe it to us? Paul talks about his ministry as a "grace", in chapter 3 of Ephesians, that God has given to him for the church. And by that he doesn't mean that God gave him the spiritual gift of apostleship, he means that God made him an apostle to the Gentiles, and it was this role in life that was the grace that God gave him. His "grace" if you will, was to "preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ . . ." Therefore, Christians shouldn't ask, "what is my spiritual gift?", they should ask "what is the role God has given me?" I don't HAVE a spiritual gift, I AM a spiritual gift to you and to the rest of the church. As a saint, I have a role to play in the building up of the body. You have another role to play. We have have our assigned roles to play and that is Paul's point.

Let's go back to the beginning of chapter 4. Why does this matter? How does verse 8 and following contribute to his earlier exhortation to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel? The fact that Paul refers to his ministry as a "grace" should give us a clue. Paul understands that his role in the church is NOT something he gives to God, it is NOT something he gives to Christ. On the contrary, his role in the church is an assignment that God gave to him. And God gave him to the church. Rather than his ministry being a source of pride, the fact that God captured him and gave him this role has become a source of humility. Let's go back to the very first verse of this chapter and look at it again, and this time I will highlight a few things.

4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love . . .

When I finally understood verse 8, I finally understood verse 1. Paul sees himself as a captive of Christ (verse 8), a prisoner of Christ (verse 1.) And he is exhorting the Ephesians (and us through them) to walk in gentleness, patience, and humility as we perform our own calling. Paul was not merely called to be an apostle; he was called to be an apostle to the Gentiles, which was a specific task unique to him, and he understood his role as that of a prisoner being given as a gift to the Gentile peoples. Being a prisoner isn't a source of pride, it's a source of humility. And seeing that our calling is a grace God has given to us, our grace, humility, gentleness, and patience is born of the fact that we too, are prisoners being given to the church. We need to come to the realization that our ministry is not something we give back to God, but some role, a Grace, that he has given to the church. We are the men (and women) God has given to Christ in order to build up his church. We don't have a gift; we are a gift.

[Watchman]

Many Bible teachers teach this passage as if Paul is talking about spiritual gifts in terms of an office or an ability that each person in the church is to receive. Under this view, Paul is discussing supernatural empowerment for Christian ministry that all believers are given. Being an apostle is one gift that Christ might give to an individual. Being a teacher or a pastor is another gift that Christ might give to an individual. According to this interpretation, Christ went up to heaven so that he might give each individual believer in the congregation a supernatural empowerment of some kind.

I think upon closer examination of the passage, we would discover that the gifts are not powers or offices given to individuals, but rather the gifts are men given to the church at large. For instance, Paul quotes a passage from the Old Testament, in which the Septuagint translation says, "He gave gifts OF men." This makes sense in terms of the activity being portrayed. The picture is this. A king or a general goes to battle with the enemy. And upon his return home he brings prisoners of war with him. The host of captives are the gifts he gives to his people.

The next thing to note is that many translations supply a verb in verse 4:11 that is not in the original text. For instance, the translation above says,

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers . . .

The Greek text doesn't have the words "to be". In other words, Paul isn't saying that Christ gave the gift of apostleship to men. He is saying that Christ gave apostles to the church. Christ went out and captured some men, and he gave these men to the church. Paul is a primary example. Christ captured Paul while Paul was on the road to Damascus, giving his church an apostle to the Gentiles. Take out the verb "to be" and it reads perfectly fine and conveys Paul's point.

And He Himself gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers . . .

Christ is giving us men, not spiritual powers as such. Some of these men have supernatural powers (such as apostles) but some of them don't have supernatural powers (such as teacher or pastor.) The main point is, Christ has captured these men and given them to the church. The men are the gifts to the church.

Why is Paul bringing this up?

To fully understand Paul's point it is helpful to read the rest of his writings with the question in mind. How did Paul understand his own ministry? How did he look at it? How did he describe it to us? Paul talks about his ministry as a "grace", in chapter 3 of Ephesians, that God has given to him for the church. And by that he doesn't mean that God gave him the spiritual gift of apostleship, he means that God made him an apostle to the Gentiles, and it was this role in life that was the grace that God gave him. His "grace" if you will, was to "preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ . . ." Therefore, Christians shouldn't ask, "what is my spiritual gift?", they should ask "what is the role God has given me?" I don't HAVE a spiritual gift, I AM a spiritual gift to you and to the rest of the church. As a saint, I have a role to play in the building up of the body. You have another role to play. We have have our assigned roles to play and that is Paul's point.

Let's go back to the beginning of chapter 4. Why does this matter? How does verse 8 and following contribute to his earlier exhortation to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel? The fact that Paul refers to his ministry as a "grace" should give us a clue. Paul understands that his role in the church is NOT something he gives to God, it is NOT something he gives to Christ. On the contrary, his role in the church is an assignment that God gave to him. And God gave him to the church. Rather than his ministry being a source of pride, the fact that God captured him and gave him this role has become a source of humility. Let's go back to the very first verse of this chapter and look at it again, and this time I will highlight a few things.

4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love . . .

When I finally understood verse 8, I finally understood verse 1. Paul sees himself as a captive of Christ (verse 8), a prisoner of Christ (verse 1.) And he is exhorting the Ephesians (and us through them) to walk in gentleness, patience, and humility as we perform our own calling. Paul was not merely called to be an apostle; he was called to be an apostle to the Gentiles, which was a specific task unique to him, and he understood his role as that of a prisoner being given as a gift to the Gentile peoples. Being a prisoner isn't a source of pride, it's a source of humility. And seeing that our calling is a grace God has given to us, our grace, humility, gentleness, and patience is born of the fact that we too, are prisoners being given to the church. We need to come to the realization that our ministry is not something we give back to God, but some role, a Grace, that he has given to the church. We are the men (and women) God has given to Christ in order to build up his church. We don't have a gift; we are a gift.

Absolutely..amen! Well thought out post and showing good understanding. Just as the church at Antioch was gifted with prophets and teachers, so also is the church today to be gifted with equippers. Peter talked about gifts being for others:

1 Peter 4:10-12 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Although Peter used the word, charisma, translated gift, and Paul in Ephesians 4 used the word, doma, also translated gift, both refer to the empowering grace God gives to His children for their betterment. I especially like the last sentence: We don't have a gift; we are a gift. Gifts are servants, not some sort of exalted supersaints.

blessings,

W

[Watchman]

i spose i need some clarification on your position.

Q: why the 1900+ year GAP in the 'five-fold ministry'?

Q: is it your assertion there have been authoritative prophets throughout church history or is it that the office/gift has been revived?

one explanation i hear is that the church has been mired in apostasy and unbelief all this time, and God needed to re-establish church government.

That is a good question. Given the less-than-pretty history of the church starting in the early days, through Constantine, the dark ages, the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc., that is as good an explanation as any. I haven't actually prayed about that, though, because it doesn't really matter to me. Should Papa wish me, or someone else to know the answer, then I'm content that He will reveal it. Order in the church, what you term church government, has been, IMO, hijacked by the demonic spirit of religion. I believe, based on scripture, that prophets have been given to the church since Christ's ascension. Who they may have been, I do not know.

Q: is God revealing new information today? what part of His Plan needs clarification by modern prophets?

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

God knew, ahead of time, His plan...down to the last detail. He orders our steps. Orders denotes both timing and sequence. Steps denotes works. Ahead of time, He prepared a set of good works for each of us. These good works will be different for each member and part of Christ's body, because the body has many functions, just as does the human body. These lists, including each work, its place in sequence, and its timing, are not found in scripture, yet scripture tells us He made them. The ONLY way we can walk according to His will is to hear the Spirit telling us, "This is the way. Walk in it.' No, we don't need Him to tell us where to park, but should He tell us where to park, it would be an excellent idea to obey. Prophets help equip saints to walk in God's plan by equipping them to hear Him, and sometimes, by pointing out the path for them, or confirming that they've heard Him correctly. Recall Paul was either a prophet or a teacher when the Spirit set he and Barnabas apart as apostles in Acts 14. The word, regarding Paul and Barnabas' path came through the prophets and teachers in the church at Antioch. And Agabus prophesied to Paul regarding his future bonds...just to give a couple of examples.

Q: are you an authoritative prophet? how does God speak to you?

I have no authority of my own, so I'm not sure what you mean. I've never seen the descriptor, authoritative, precede the word, prophet, in scripture. God speaks to me in the same ways He speak to others: through nature, through prayer, through scripture, through others and situations with them, via art and music, and Spirit-to-spirit. May I ask that we not make this thread about me, please? It is not.

W

[RLG]

Thanks for the thread invite Andy. Peeking in sporadically for now but will attempt to weigh in

[Watchman]

Thanks for the thread invite Andy. Peeking in sporadically for now but will attempt to weigh in

You're welcome...in fact, everyone is welcome here. We're all learning together.

A

[Jemand]

Many Bible teachers teach this passage as if Paul is talking about spiritual gifts in terms of an office or an ability that each person in the church is to receive. Under this view, Paul is discussing supernatural empowerment for Christian ministry that all believers are given. Being an apostle is one gift that Christ might give to an individual. Being a teacher or a pastor is another gift that Christ might give to an individual. According to this interpretation, Christ went up to heaven so that he might give each individual believer in the congregation a supernatural empowerment of some kind.

I think upon closer examination of the passage, we would discover that the gifts are not powers or offices given to individuals, but rather the gifts are men given to the church at large. For instance, Paul quotes a passage from the Old Testament, in which the Septuagint translation says, "He gave gifts OF men." This makes sense in terms of the activity being portrayed. The picture is this. A king or a general goes to battle with the enemy. And upon his return home he brings prisoners of war with him. The host of captives are the gifts he gives to his people.

Many Bible teachers? I believe that it is obvious to nearly everyone reading the passage that Paul is writing in Eph. 4:11 that Christ gave some apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors and teachers to the Church.

The next thing to note is that many translations supply a verb in verse 4:11 that is not in the original text. For instance, the translation above says,

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers . . .

The Greek text doesn't have the words "to be". In other words, Paul isn't saying that Christ gave the gift of apostleship to men. He is saying that Christ gave apostles to the church. .

Eph. 4:11. And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, (NKJV)

Are you not severely misunderstanding the thought of the translators of the New King James Version (the translation that Watchman is quoting from) in this verse? They are understanding the verse in the same way as we are, but expressing their understanding in a different manner. That is, they are writing that Christ gave some men to function as apostles, prophets….

Nonetheless, it is true that God has given gifts to men that enable them to perform the function in the church that Christ has called them to, including the functions of apostle, prophet, evangelist, and pastor and teacher.

Eph. 4:8 is a quote (or shall we say, a ‘misquote’) from Psalm 68:18,

18. You have ascended on high, You have led captivity captive; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious, That the Lord God might dwell there. (NKJV)

18. You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there. (NASB, 1995)

Why did Paul so radically alter what the Psalmist wrote? What do we have to learn from both the Psalmist and from Paul?

[Watchman]

Eph. 4:8 is a quote (or shall we say, a ‘misquote’) from Psalm 68:18, [/COLOR]

18. You have ascended on high, You have led captivity captive; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious, That the Lord God might dwell there. (NKJV)

18. You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there. (NASB, 1995)

Why did Paul so radically alter what the Psalmist wrote? What do we have to learn from both the Psalmist and from Paul?

That is a good question, because I have no doubt Paul knew the passage from memory, given his education and background. What say you, Jemand?

[zone]

Many Bible teachers teach this passage as if Paul is talking about spiritual gifts in terms of an office or an ability that each person in the church is to receive. Under this view, Paul is discussing supernatural empowerment for Christian ministry that all believers are given. Being an apostle is one gift that Christ might give to an individual. Being a teacher or a pastor is another gift that Christ might give to an individual. According to this interpretation, Christ went up to heaven so that he might give each individual believer in the congregation a supernatural empowerment of some kind.

I think upon closer examination of the passage, we would discover that the gifts are not powers or offices given to individuals, but rather the gifts are men given to the church at large. For instance, Paul quotes a passage from the Old Testament, in which the Septuagint translation says, "He gave gifts OF men." This makes sense in terms of the activity being portrayed. The picture is this. A king or a general goes to battle with the enemy. And upon his return home he brings prisoners of war with him. The host of captives are the gifts he gives to his people.

The next thing to note is that many translations supply a verb in verse 4:11 that is not in the original text. For instance, the translation above says,

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers . . .

The Greek text doesn't have the words "to be". In other words, Paul isn't saying that Christ gave the gift of apostleship to men. He is saying that Christ gave apostles to the church. Christ went out and captured some men, and he gave these men to the church. Paul is a primary example. Christ captured Paul while Paul was on the road to Damascus, giving his church an apostle to the Gentiles. Take out the verb "to be" and it reads perfectly fine and conveys Paul's point.

And He Himself gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers . . .

Christ is giving us men, not spiritual powers as such. Some of these men have supernatural powers (such as apostles) but some of them don't have supernatural powers (such as teacher or pastor.) The main point is, Christ has captured these men and given them to the church. The men are the gifts to the church.

Why is Paul bringing this up?

To fully understand Paul's point it is helpful to read the rest of his writings with the question in mind. How did Paul understand his own ministry? How did he look at it? How did he describe it to us? Paul talks about his ministry as a "grace", in chapter 3 of Ephesians, that God has given to him for the church. And by that he doesn't mean that God gave him the spiritual gift of apostleship, he means that God made him an apostle to the Gentiles, and it was this role in life that was the grace that God gave him. His "grace" if you will, was to "preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ . . ." Therefore, Christians shouldn't ask, "what is my spiritual gift?", they should ask "what is the role God has given me?" I don't HAVE a spiritual gift, I AM a spiritual gift to you and to the rest of the church. As a saint, I have a role to play in the building up of the body. You have another role to play. We have have our assigned roles to play and that is Paul's point.

Let's go back to the beginning of chapter 4. Why does this matter? How does verse 8 and following contribute to his earlier exhortation to walk in a manner worthy of the gospel? The fact that Paul refers to his ministry as a "grace" should give us a clue. Paul understands that his role in the church is NOT something he gives to God, it is NOT something he gives to Christ. On the contrary, his role in the church is an assignment that God gave to him. And God gave him to the church. Rather than his ministry being a source of pride, the fact that God captured him and gave him this role has become a source of humility. Let's go back to the very first verse of this chapter and look at it again, and this time I will highlight a few things.

4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love . . .

When I finally understood verse 8, I finally understood verse 1. Paul sees himself as a captive of Christ (verse 8), a prisoner of Christ (verse 1.) And he is exhorting the Ephesians (and us through them) to walk in gentleness, patience, and humility as we perform our own calling. Paul was not merely called to be an apostle; he was called to be an apostle to the Gentiles, which was a specific task unique to him, and he understood his role as that of a prisoner being given as a gift to the Gentile peoples. Being a prisoner isn't a source of pride, it's a source of humility. And seeing that our calling is a grace God has given to us, our grace, humility, gentleness, and patience is born of the fact that we too, are prisoners being given to the church. We need to come to the realization that our ministry is not something we give back to God, but some role, a Grace, that he has given to the church. We are the men (and women) God has given to Christ in order to build up his church. We don't have a gift; we are a gift.

outstanding.
and provided you are teaching that the gifts (men) He gave for the foundation (which has been laid) are not the same men/gifts we have (Pastor/Teacher - ie: timothy...and kindness, charity etc)....i AGREE AND SAY AMEN and AMEN.

great post.

[BroRog]

Many Bible teachers? I believe that it is obvious to nearly everyone reading the passage that Paul is writing in Eph. 4:11 that Christ gave some apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors and teachers to the Church.

Really? My mistake. It has been my experience that discussions and of this passage center on the supposition that Paul is giving instructions about spiritual gifts. What seems to be the supposition is that Paul is saying, "Christ gave the spiritual gift of apostleship to some men, he gave the spiritual gift of prophet to other men, he gave the spiritual gift of evangelism to other men, and etc." This is a different idea from the idea you suggest is obvious, that Christ is giving men to the church. One interpretation has Christ giving spiritual gifts to individual men, and another interpretation has Christ giving men to his church.

Eph. 4:11. And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, (NKJV)

Are you not severely misunderstanding the thought of the translators of the New King James Version (the translation that Watchman is quoting from) in this verse? They are understanding the verse in the same way as we are, but expressing their understanding in a different manner. That is, they are writing that Christ gave some men to function as apostles, prophets….

As I pointed out before, the NKJV translators have added the verb "to be", which is not in the original Greek Text. I'm not suggesting anything nefarious here. If I thought Paul was talking about giving spiritual gifts to men, I would also add the verb "to be" in order to make that interpretation clear to English readers. I don't see anything wrong with the process as such. I merely point out the fact that the verb "to be" isn't in the original Greek text in order to point out that other interpretations are possible.

Nonetheless, it is true that God has given gifts to men that enable them to perform the function in the church that Christ has called them to, including the functions of apostle, prophet, evangelist, and pastor and teacher.

Eph. 4:8 is a quote (or shall we say, a ‘misquote’) from Psalm 68:18,

18. You have ascended on high, You have led captivity captive; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious, That the Lord God might dwell there. (NKJV)

18. You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives; You have received gifts among men, Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there. (NASB, 1995)

Why did Paul so radically alter what the Psalmist wrote? What do we have to learn from both the Psalmist and from Paul?

[/QUOTE]

I don't think Paul radically altered what the Psalmist wrote. The Psalmist is talking about an occasion in which a king has captured his captives and given them to his people. In this scenario it is both true that the gifts are men, and that the gifts are being received by men. Both are true at the same time.

[zone]

Why did Paul so radically alter what the Psalmist wrote? What do we have to learn from both the Psalmist and from Paul?

sigh. i hope i'm wrong....are you suggesting we need a New Perspective on Paul? or that he was an imposter or such?
(apologies if i misunderstood....but many do teach this today - they have to. God's choice of paul confounds their agenda)

[zone]

Absolutely..amen! Well thought out post and showing good understanding. Just as the church at Antioch was gifted with prophets and teachers, so also is the church today to be gifted with equippers.

nope. the ones He gave the first time when He laid the foudation were enough.

why the 1900+ year GAP in the supposed reappearance of the prophets?

you do know the NT writers and Jesus predicted a ton of FALSE PROPHETS showing up in the last days, right?

NOTHING is said about a restoration of true prophets....

[zone]

That is a good question. Given the less-than-pretty history of the church starting in the early days, through Constantine, the dark ages, the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc., that is as good an explanation as any.

right. *ahem*
blame stuff on Constantine and the Papacy.
why not blame WW2; drought; tsunamis? all that stuff you listed is just HISTORY OF FALLEN MAN....the church's mission has never changed.

can you point to anything in scripture that predicts a sending of NEW prophets in the last days?

I haven't actually prayed about that, though, because it doesn't really matter to me.

really?
you don't care if we're battling a crew of false prophets and false apostles?

Heretical C. Peter Wagner describes the bizarre New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)
March 19, 2011 by davemosher

(revised 02/06/12)

I want to give a warning here: there are certain Pentecostal movements which are rife with bizarre, occult, New Age-ish contemplative prayer/ contemplative spirituality practices.

But first I want to say: I do believe there are biblically sound Pentecostal churches (although today they are very few and far between). In fact, I have attended several balanced, biblically sound Assemblies of God churches (at least they were balanced and biblically sound at the time).

The Assemblies of God denomination has traditionally fallen under the umbrella of Classic Pentecostal denominations. There are three waves of Pentecostalism – Classic Pentecostals (the First Wave), Charismatics (the Second Wave), and the New Apostolic Reformation or NAR (the Third Wave). The “Three Waves” is a classification put forth by C. Peter Wagner.

Unfortunately, from the very beginning of Pentecostalism, there have been more false teachers than biblically sound teachers. This is especially true of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) (a major player in the Third Wave). In a 2005 article, C. Peter Wagner gives a detailed explanation of the bizarre NAR....
http://davemosher.wordpress.com/2011...formation-nar/

Should Papa wish me, or someone else to know the answer, then I'm content that He will reveal it.

He has been...through the faithful remnant who remain loyal to scripture. but the new kids/prophets don't read the critical reports.

Order in the church, what you term church government, has been, IMO, hijacked by the demonic spirit of religion.

ya...i've heard this before. translation: the faithful Christ/Cross-cenetred pastors and teachers won't listen to us! they're dead and useless because of the 'spirit of religion' (orthodoxy):

Freedom from the Religious Spirit: Understanding How Deceptive Religious Forces Try To Destroy God's Plan and Purpose for His Church

"Apostle" C. Peter Wagner, NAR:
Composed of archaic traditions and obsolete practices, and masterminded by the enemy of our souls, the spirit of religion seeks to keep individual believers and the corporate church stagnant and unaware of the call of the Holy Spirit for change. We witnessed the spirit of religion when the Pharisees failed to recognize the coming of the Christ. Today, the spirit of religion can be so subtle that we are unaware of its impact, instead being deceived into believing that God is directing us. Only when we recognize the hold that this counterfeit religion has over Christianity can we be freed to experience the transformation of the Holy Spirit in our lives and in the heart of the Church. Join C. Peter Wagner and other dynamic Christian leaders as they unveil the dark influence of the spirit of religion.

http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Religi.../dp/0830736700

the NAR and lone wolf prophets want to take charge of the church - we have the biblical model of Pastor/Teacher with deacons and elders to help. we don't need these other guys running things. they're charlatans.

I believe, based on scripture, that prophets have been given to the church since Christ's ascension. Who they may have been, I do not know.?

really?
then what did they do?

if Father was taking control of their vocal cords and speaking first person, shouldn't we have it recorded someplace (i.e - in our Bibles? mine ends with the book of Revelation followed by MAPS...LOL)

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

God knew, ahead of time, His plan...down to the last detail. He orders our steps. Orders denotes both timing and sequence. Steps denotes works. Ahead of time, He prepared a set of good works for each of us. These good works will be different for each member and part of Christ's body, because the body has many functions, just as does the human body. These lists, including each work, its place in sequence, and its timing, are not found in scripture, yet scripture tells us He made them. The ONLY way we can walk according to His will is to hear the Spirit telling us, "This is the way. Walk in it.' No, we don't need Him to tell us where to park, but should He tell us where to park, it would be an excellent idea to obey. Prophets help equip saints to walk in God's plan by equipping them to hear Him, and sometimes, by pointing out the path for them, or confirming that they've heard Him correctly. Recall Paul was either a prophet or a teacher when the Spirit set he and Barnabas apart as apostles in Acts 14. The word, regarding Paul and Barnabas' path came through the prophets and teachers in the church at Antioch. And Agabus prophesied to Paul regarding his future bonds...just to give a couple of examples.

2 of your quotes are OT. different revelatory method.

those NT are all examples from the 1st century.
the foundation...laid.

name some modern prophets. let's see their writings.

I have no authority of my own, so I'm not sure what you mean. I've never seen the descriptor, authoritative, precede the word, prophet, in scripture. God speaks to me in the same ways He speak to others: through nature, through prayer, through scripture, through others and situations with them, via art and music, and Spirit-to-spirit. May I ask that we not make this thread about me, please? It is not.

W

cop-out......do you 'prophesy' to churches/leaders/sheep?
then you're acting in authority....and if not your own, then The Lord's.

i'd rethink it all....and repent and be forgiven.
then consider seminary and just preach and teach. the rest is FLESH.

[Slug1]

right. *ahem*
blame stuff on Constantine and the Papacy.
why not blame WW2; drought; tsunamis? all that stuff you listed is just HISTORY OF FALLEN MAN....the church's mission has never changed.

aren't you the one raising the issues of "movements" and "secret societies", "fake this and abusive that" in all the other threads?

While you BLAME all this other stuff in those threads... you then turn it around in this one?

You speak against all the other topics due to the BLAME you place on every movements and secret societies, abusing Christians, fake Christians, and false Christians... so shall I state, see how your own medicine tastes??