Prophets in the church...Ephesians 4

[zone]

aren't you the one raising the issues of "movements" and "secret societies", "fake this and abusive that" in all the other threads?

While you BLAME all this other stuff in those threads... you then turn it around in this one?

You speak against all the other topics due to the BLAME you place on every movements and secret societies, abusing Christians, fake Christians, and false Christians... so shall I state, see how your own medicine tastes??

LOL Slug.
you misunderstand.
i blame Finney and the Legalist/Holiness movement for allowing that wretched doctrine to pass as the gospel.

i blame a lack of biblical literacy and discernment for allowing these fake prophets to enter the churches.
pride and idolatry play a part in that.

i do not blame world history for the church supposedly being 'weak'.

she's not powerless to preach the gospel and have men saved through it....the faithful church has always and always will be obdient and do it God's way. and all who trust in the Lord shall be saved.

i was blaming the sign and wonder seekers for allowing the apostasy to take root so quickly.
kick the fake prophets out and get back to what works - Christ Crucified!

so, no medicine doled out by you....so far
ttyl zone.

[Slug1]

and do it God's way.

Hooah... although God's way can involve signs that are supernatural... not a bunch of signs that are those left behind on walls and trees that read... "Jesus Saves!"

[Watchman]

nope. the ones He gave the first time when He laid the foudation were enough.

why the 1900+ year GAP in the supposed reappearance of the prophets?

you do know the NT writers and Jesus predicted a ton of FALSE PROPHETS showing up in the last days, right?

NOTHING is said about a restoration of true prophets....

Before you can claim a gap, one must be proven. Christ, when He ascended, gave gifts of men to the church. They were given for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry UNTIL the body reaches Christ's full stature. This has yet to occur; consequently, it must be taken, based upon the text, that prophets are yet needed in the body of Christ today. Nothing need be said re: restoration of prophets because their need has yet to be fulfilled.

W

[Watchman]

...kick the fake prophets out and get back to what works - Christ Crucified!

Once again, as in the HS baptism thread, folks are trying to summarily dismiss all prophets as fakes. What does the passage in the OP say? Does it say that these gifts were given to the church UNTIL the scriptures are compiled? Or does it say they are given UNTIL the body of Christ grows to His stature? What saith the scriptures under consideration? Where has anyone said prophets deny, decry, or fail to teach Christ and Him crucified...AND risen?!? What does Paul tell the saints at Ephesus regarding the gifts of men to the church?

W

[Watchman]

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

God knew, ahead of time, His plan...down to the last detail. He orders our steps. Orders denotes both timing and sequence. Steps denotes works. Ahead of time, He prepared a set of good works for each of us. These good works will be different for each member and part of Christ's body, because the body has many functions, just as does the human body. These lists, including each work, its place in sequence, and its timing, are not found in scripture, yet scripture tells us He made them. The ONLY way we can walk according to His will is to hear the Spirit telling us, "This is the way. Walk in it.' No, we don't need Him to tell us where to park, but should He tell us where to park, it would be an excellent idea to obey. Prophets help equip saints to walk in God's plan by equipping them to hear Him, and sometimes, by pointing out the path for them, or confirming that they've heard Him correctly. Recall Paul was either a prophet or a teacher when the Spirit set he and Barnabas apart as apostles in Acts 14. The word, regarding Paul and Barnabas' path came through the prophets and teachers in the church at Antioch. And Agabus prophesied to Paul regarding his future bonds...just to give a couple of examples.

2 of your quotes are OT. different revelatory method.

those NT are all examples from the 1st century.
the foundation...laid.

name some modern prophets. let's see their writings.

Holy guacamole, batman! Talk about a cop out. Soooo, if I can't quote the OT, then we'd best prevent Paul from doing so, as well. The bottom line is this: the passages I quoted are all relevant to our walks with the Lord. While it is true that the Holy Spirit wasn't universally given in the OT, He was certainly operant in both David and Isaiah when they wrote the quoted passages. All scripure is profitable for doctrine, ya know?

Modern prophet's writings...hmmmm. Name some NT prophet's writings.

...do you 'prophesy' to churches/leaders/sheep?
then you're acting in authority....and if not your own, then The Lord's.

i'd rethink it all....and repent and be forgiven.
then consider seminary and just preach and teach. the rest is FLESH.

Once again, your erroneous opinion is duly noted! Were the Lord to call me to seminary, then folks had better clear out of my way, because that is exactly where I'd go; however, He has not called me there. Your reference to flesh is likely incorrectly used. If you say I'm operating out of the flesh when the Lord speaks through me, then I say your accusing the Spirit of carnal activity. Likewise for His other manifestations. We're no longer talking about tongues, and you have yet to address Paul's words in the OP. Why the duck and dodge? What did Paul actually tell the saints at Ephesus regarding the duration of the gift of prophets to the body of Christ?

W

[amazzin]

Please watch your language ... you've been warned before. There is a mannaer which posting priviledges promotes discussion in a civil and respectful way. If you are unable to do that do not post here

LOL Slug.
you misunderstand.
i blame Finney and the Legalist/Holiness movement for allowing that wretched doctrine to pass as the gospel.

i blame a lack of biblical literacy and discernment for allowing these fake prophets to enter the churches.
pride and idolatry play a part in that.

i do not blame world history for the church supposedly being 'weak'.

she's not powerless to preach the gospel and have men saved through it....the faithful church has always and always will be obdient and do it God's way. and all who trust in the Lord shall be saved.

i was blaming the sign and wonder seekers for allowing the apostasy to take root so quickly.
kick the fake prophets out and get back to what works - Christ Crucified!

so, no medicine doled out by you....so far
ttyl zone.

[HoboTone]

A man who claimed to have a gift of prophecy visited a Church not far from my home about four months ago. I went to hear him with serious doubts in my mind. I prayed for a spirit of discernment on my way into the building. He got up to the pulpit and his first Powerpoint slide came on the screen. He began to speak, stopped in mid-sentence, pointed at me in a crowd of two hundred and prophesied over me. I was not a member of the Church, and this man knew things I had never told anyone. He knew about my illness, and that I was planning to quit seminary after my diagnosis. I felt like running. I was sobbing uncontrollably and everyone was staring at me. I'll never forget it, it really changed my life and the direction I was going. I went in that room a scoffer, and I honestly believe that not only did God put me in my place, but I still see it as the turning point in my faith in his supernatural power. Whoever says signs and wonders aren't for today should have been there.

[Slug1]

Hobotone... after checking in on this cell and reading your testimony, I had to login just to say... Hooah! God is Good! I once believed prophecy was ended... until the Holy Spirit moved supernaturally and my unbelieving heart changed that night.

[Watchman]

A man who claimed to have a gift of prophecy visited a Church not far from my home about four months ago. I went to hear him with serious doubts in my mind. I prayed for a spirit of discernment on my way into the building. He got up to the pulpit and his first Powerpoint slide came on the screen. He began to speak, stopped in mid-sentence, pointed at me in a crowd of two hundred and prophesied over me. I was not a member of the Church, and this man knew things I had never told anyone. He knew about my illness, and that I was planning to quit seminary after my diagnosis. I felt like running. I was sobbing uncontrollably and everyone was staring at me. I'll never forget it, it really changed my life and the direction I was going. I went in that room a scoffer, and I honestly believe that not only did God put me in my place, but I still see it as the turning point in my faith in his supernatural power. Whoever says signs and wonders aren't for today should have been there.

I've had a very similar experience. It is quite unsettling for someone you've never met before to tell you things about yourself...especially secrets you haven't divulged to anyone. Thanks for sharing, HoboTone.

W

[Watchman]

In another thread, and in this one, the question was raised, "why not kick the fake prophets out and get back to what works--Christ crucified!" I addressed this earlier, but my answer was very partial. This needs to be added: prophecy is rarely about salvation. If all that is preached is Christ crucified, all that will be made, as in Corinth, will be immature, carnal, baby saints. Paul told the Corinthians:

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 1 Corinthians 15:3-7

We know these immature, wayward saints were saved...no question. But recall what he'd previously told them:

...we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing...And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal.
1 Corinthians 2:6, 3:1-3a

So if all these saints ever heard was the milk of the gospel, it stands to reason that they would remain babies, yes? They're already saved, so there is no sense repeating, as is done in numerous places every Sunday morning, the gospel of salvation over and again to folks who are already saved. The purposes of prophecy are, for the most part, edification, exhortation, and comfort to believers. Prophets often bring the meat, after the milk has done its job. The meat never forgets, diminishes, or ignores the milk--Christ crucified, dead, and raised. It simply takes people on toward maturity. The idea that prophets are not preaching the gospel is bogus...they are simply proclaiming the maturation parts of the good news...not the milk. Pastors and teachers, likewise, can do this. The point is that not every message was EVER intended to deal with ye olde milk! Another way of putting it is: prophecy is more about sanctification than justification.

W

[HoboTone]

Thanks fellas. We serve an awesome, supernatural God who is working powerfully everyday in our midst; I see it on the streets of Detroit, and I'm hooked!
I believe in all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and I think they will all come handy as we spread the Gospel in a world that is in real need of a Savior.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11 NIV

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

[zone]

Hooah... although God's way can involve signs that are supernatural... not a bunch of signs that are those left behind on walls and trees that read... "Jesus Saves!"

haha.
true enough.
or signs that say "in case of rapture...."

[zone]

Please watch your language ... you've been warned before. There is a mannaer which posting priviledges promotes discussion in a civil and respectful way. If you are unable to do that do not post here

could you clarify what i said in that post that was unacceptable?
thank you.

[zone]

Before you can claim a gap, one must be proven

aside from Roman Popes, can you name anyone who claimed infallible and authoritative apostolic succession and was accepted by the church?

where are their writings?

name/document prophets from the 5th, 11th, 14th, 18th centuries please (or any time after canon).

so, you're asserting they've always been with us? not that the offices are being restored?

Christ, when He ascended, gave gifts of men to the church. They were given for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry UNTIL the body reaches Christ's full stature

going to need a more in-depth exegesis than that i think.

This has yet to occur; consequently, it must be taken, based upon the text, that prophets are yet needed in the body of Christ today. Nothing need be said re: restoration of prophets because their need has yet to be fulfilled.

W

don't know how open your mind is...here's a first-rate exposition of the matter (Richard Caldwell, Baptist):

No More Prophets
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...id=81102151228

and these are very useful also:

Cessationism Demonstrated & Defended - Part 1
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...sid=7150201117

Cessationism Demonstrated & Defended - Part 2
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninf...sid=7250223327

ttyl.

[zone]

A man who claimed to have a gift of prophecy visited a Church not far from my home about four months ago. I went to hear him with serious doubts in my mind. I prayed for a spirit of discernment on my way into the building. He got up to the pulpit and his first Powerpoint slide came on the screen. He began to speak, stopped in mid-sentence, pointed at me in a crowd of two hundred and prophesied over me. I was not a member of the Church, and this man knew things I had never told anyone. He knew about my illness, and that I was planning to quit seminary after my diagnosis. I felt like running. I was sobbing uncontrollably and everyone was staring at me. I'll never forget it, it really changed my life and the direction I was going. I went in that room a scoffer, and I honestly believe that not only did God put me in my place, but I still see it as the turning point in my faith in his supernatural power. Whoever says signs and wonders aren't for today should have been there.

it might have been God. but even what was said is not proof.
God warned he would even allow false prophets who could make true claims....that He was testing us.

while still a heathen i once attended a "psychic fair".
there was an elderly gal speaking...and she did the same thing...but she went through the crowd speaking to dozens of people, revealing details of their lives and extended families - everyone was amazed.

i've seen it happen in the pagan world.