Prophets in the church...Ephesians 4

[Watchman]

Ephesians 4:1-16 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equippingof the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

In another thread, regarding Holy Spirit baptism and tongues, the topic of prophets arose. Rather than continue hijacking that thread, here’s one devoted solely to the topic of prophets in the church. Based upon the passage above (and some others), I posit that prophets are as much needed nowadays as they were needed in the early days of the church. What say ye?

blessings,

Watchman

[zone]

Ephesians 4:1-16 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equippingof the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

In another thread, regarding Holy Spirit baptism and tongues, the topic of prophets arose. Rather than continue hijacking that thread, here’s one devoted solely to the topic of prophets in the church. Based upon the passage above (and some others), I posit that prophets are as much needed nowadays as they were needed in the early days of the church. What say ye?

blessings,

Watchman

i spose i need some clarification on your position.

Q: why the 1900+ year GAP in the 'five-fold ministry'?

Q: is it your assertion there have been authoritative prophets throughout church history or is it that the office/gift has been revived?

one explanation i hear is that the church has been mired in apostasy and unbelief all this time, and God needed to re-establish church government.

Q: is God revealing new information today? what part of His Plan needs clarification by modern prophets?

Q: are you an authoritative prophet? how does God speak to you?

[Watchman]

i spose i need some clarification on your position.

Q: why the 1900+ year GAP in the 'five-fold ministry'?

Q: is it your assertion there have been authoritative prophets throughout church history or is it that the office/gift has been revived?

one explanation i hear is that the church has been mired in apostasy and unbelief all this time, and God needed to re-establish church government.

That is a good question. Given the less-than-pretty history of the church starting in the early days, through Constantine, the dark ages, the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc., that is as good an explanation as any. I haven't actually prayed about that, though, because it doesn't really matter to me. Should Papa wish me, or someone else to know the answer, then I'm content that He will reveal it. Order in the church, what you term church government, has been, IMO, hijacked by the demonic spirit of religion. I believe, based on scripture, that prophets have been given to the church since Christ's ascension. Who they may have been, I do not know.

Q: is God revealing new information today? what part of His Plan needs clarification by modern prophets?

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

God knew, ahead of time, His plan...down to the last detail. He orders our steps. Orders denotes both timing and sequence. Steps denotes works. Ahead of time, He prepared a set of good works for each of us. These good works will be different for each member and part of Christ's body, because the body has many functions, just as does the human body. These lists, including each work, its place in sequence, and its timing, are not found in scripture, yet scripture tells us He made them. The ONLY way we can walk according to His will is to hear the Spirit telling us, "This is the way. Walk in it.' No, we don't need Him to tell us where to park, but should He tell us where to park, it would be an excellent idea to obey. Prophets help equip saints to walk in God's plan by equipping them to hear Him, and sometimes, by pointing out the path for them, or confirming that they've heard Him correctly. Recall Paul was either a prophet or a teacher when the Spirit set he and Barnabas apart as apostles in Acts 14. The word, regarding Paul and Barnabas' path came through the prophets and teachers in the church at Antioch. And Agabus prophesied to Paul regarding his future bonds...just to give a couple of examples.

Q: are you an authoritative prophet? how does God speak to you?

I have no authority of my own, so I'm not sure what you mean. I've never seen the descriptor, authoritative, precede the word, prophet, in scripture. God speaks to me in the same ways He speak to others: through nature, through prayer, through scripture, through others and situations with them, via art and music, and Spirit-to-spirit. May I ask that we not make this thread about me, please? It is not.

W

[RLG]

Thanks for the thread invite Andy. Peeking in sporadically for now but will attempt to weigh in

[Watchman]

Thanks for the thread invite Andy. Peeking in sporadically for now but will attempt to weigh in

You're welcome...in fact, everyone is welcome here. We're all learning together.

A

[zone]

That is a good question. Given the less-than-pretty history of the church starting in the early days, through Constantine, the dark ages, the Inquisition, the Crusades, etc., that is as good an explanation as any.

right. *ahem*
blame stuff on Constantine and the Papacy.
why not blame WW2; drought; tsunamis? all that stuff you listed is just HISTORY OF FALLEN MAN....the church's mission has never changed.

can you point to anything in scripture that predicts a sending of NEW prophets in the last days?

I haven't actually prayed about that, though, because it doesn't really matter to me.

really?
you don't care if we're battling a crew of false prophets and false apostles?

Heretical C. Peter Wagner describes the bizarre New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)
March 19, 2011 by davemosher

(revised 02/06/12)

I want to give a warning here: there are certain Pentecostal movements which are rife with bizarre, occult, New Age-ish contemplative prayer/ contemplative spirituality practices.

But first I want to say: I do believe there are biblically sound Pentecostal churches (although today they are very few and far between). In fact, I have attended several balanced, biblically sound Assemblies of God churches (at least they were balanced and biblically sound at the time).

The Assemblies of God denomination has traditionally fallen under the umbrella of Classic Pentecostal denominations. There are three waves of Pentecostalism – Classic Pentecostals (the First Wave), Charismatics (the Second Wave), and the New Apostolic Reformation or NAR (the Third Wave). The “Three Waves” is a classification put forth by C. Peter Wagner.

Unfortunately, from the very beginning of Pentecostalism, there have been more false teachers than biblically sound teachers. This is especially true of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) (a major player in the Third Wave). In a 2005 article, C. Peter Wagner gives a detailed explanation of the bizarre NAR....
http://davemosher.wordpress.com/2011...formation-nar/

Should Papa wish me, or someone else to know the answer, then I'm content that He will reveal it.

He has been...through the faithful remnant who remain loyal to scripture. but the new kids/prophets don't read the critical reports.

Order in the church, what you term church government, has been, IMO, hijacked by the demonic spirit of religion.

ya...i've heard this before. translation: the faithful Christ/Cross-cenetred pastors and teachers won't listen to us! they're dead and useless because of the 'spirit of religion' (orthodoxy):

Freedom from the Religious Spirit: Understanding How Deceptive Religious Forces Try To Destroy God's Plan and Purpose for His Church

"Apostle" C. Peter Wagner, NAR:
Composed of archaic traditions and obsolete practices, and masterminded by the enemy of our souls, the spirit of religion seeks to keep individual believers and the corporate church stagnant and unaware of the call of the Holy Spirit for change. We witnessed the spirit of religion when the Pharisees failed to recognize the coming of the Christ. Today, the spirit of religion can be so subtle that we are unaware of its impact, instead being deceived into believing that God is directing us. Only when we recognize the hold that this counterfeit religion has over Christianity can we be freed to experience the transformation of the Holy Spirit in our lives and in the heart of the Church. Join C. Peter Wagner and other dynamic Christian leaders as they unveil the dark influence of the spirit of religion.

http://www.amazon.com/Freedom-Religi.../dp/0830736700

the NAR and lone wolf prophets want to take charge of the church - we have the biblical model of Pastor/Teacher with deacons and elders to help. we don't need these other guys running things. they're charlatans.

I believe, based on scripture, that prophets have been given to the church since Christ's ascension. Who they may have been, I do not know.?

really?
then what did they do?

if Father was taking control of their vocal cords and speaking first person, shouldn't we have it recorded someplace (i.e - in our Bibles? mine ends with the book of Revelation followed by MAPS...LOL)

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Psalm 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD, And He delights in his way.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

God knew, ahead of time, His plan...down to the last detail. He orders our steps. Orders denotes both timing and sequence. Steps denotes works. Ahead of time, He prepared a set of good works for each of us. These good works will be different for each member and part of Christ's body, because the body has many functions, just as does the human body. These lists, including each work, its place in sequence, and its timing, are not found in scripture, yet scripture tells us He made them. The ONLY way we can walk according to His will is to hear the Spirit telling us, "This is the way. Walk in it.' No, we don't need Him to tell us where to park, but should He tell us where to park, it would be an excellent idea to obey. Prophets help equip saints to walk in God's plan by equipping them to hear Him, and sometimes, by pointing out the path for them, or confirming that they've heard Him correctly. Recall Paul was either a prophet or a teacher when the Spirit set he and Barnabas apart as apostles in Acts 14. The word, regarding Paul and Barnabas' path came through the prophets and teachers in the church at Antioch. And Agabus prophesied to Paul regarding his future bonds...just to give a couple of examples.

2 of your quotes are OT. different revelatory method.

those NT are all examples from the 1st century.
the foundation...laid.

name some modern prophets. let's see their writings.

I have no authority of my own, so I'm not sure what you mean. I've never seen the descriptor, authoritative, precede the word, prophet, in scripture. God speaks to me in the same ways He speak to others: through nature, through prayer, through scripture, through others and situations with them, via art and music, and Spirit-to-spirit. May I ask that we not make this thread about me, please? It is not.

W

cop-out......do you 'prophesy' to churches/leaders/sheep?
then you're acting in authority....and if not your own, then The Lord's.

i'd rethink it all....and repent and be forgiven.
then consider seminary and just preach and teach. the rest is FLESH.

[Slug1]

right. *ahem*
blame stuff on Constantine and the Papacy.
why not blame WW2; drought; tsunamis? all that stuff you listed is just HISTORY OF FALLEN MAN....the church's mission has never changed.

aren't you the one raising the issues of "movements" and "secret societies", "fake this and abusive that" in all the other threads?

While you BLAME all this other stuff in those threads... you then turn it around in this one?

You speak against all the other topics due to the BLAME you place on every movements and secret societies, abusing Christians, fake Christians, and false Christians... so shall I state, see how your own medicine tastes??

[zone]

aren't you the one raising the issues of "movements" and "secret societies", "fake this and abusive that" in all the other threads?

While you BLAME all this other stuff in those threads... you then turn it around in this one?

You speak against all the other topics due to the BLAME you place on every movements and secret societies, abusing Christians, fake Christians, and false Christians... so shall I state, see how your own medicine tastes??

LOL Slug.
you misunderstand.
i blame Finney and the Legalist/Holiness movement for allowing that wretched doctrine to pass as the gospel.

i blame a lack of biblical literacy and discernment for allowing these fake prophets to enter the churches.
pride and idolatry play a part in that.

i do not blame world history for the church supposedly being 'weak'.

she's not powerless to preach the gospel and have men saved through it....the faithful church has always and always will be obdient and do it God's way. and all who trust in the Lord shall be saved.

i was blaming the sign and wonder seekers for allowing the apostasy to take root so quickly.
kick the fake prophets out and get back to what works - Christ Crucified!

so, no medicine doled out by you....so far
ttyl zone.

[Slug1]

and do it God's way.

Hooah... although God's way can involve signs that are supernatural... not a bunch of signs that are those left behind on walls and trees that read... "Jesus Saves!"

[zone]

Hooah... although God's way can involve signs that are supernatural... not a bunch of signs that are those left behind on walls and trees that read... "Jesus Saves!"

haha.
true enough.
or signs that say "in case of rapture...."

[amazzin]

Please watch your language ... you've been warned before. There is a mannaer which posting priviledges promotes discussion in a civil and respectful way. If you are unable to do that do not post here

LOL Slug.
you misunderstand.
i blame Finney and the Legalist/Holiness movement for allowing that wretched doctrine to pass as the gospel.

i blame a lack of biblical literacy and discernment for allowing these fake prophets to enter the churches.
pride and idolatry play a part in that.

i do not blame world history for the church supposedly being 'weak'.

she's not powerless to preach the gospel and have men saved through it....the faithful church has always and always will be obdient and do it God's way. and all who trust in the Lord shall be saved.

i was blaming the sign and wonder seekers for allowing the apostasy to take root so quickly.
kick the fake prophets out and get back to what works - Christ Crucified!

so, no medicine doled out by you....so far
ttyl zone.

[HoboTone]

A man who claimed to have a gift of prophecy visited a Church not far from my home about four months ago. I went to hear him with serious doubts in my mind. I prayed for a spirit of discernment on my way into the building. He got up to the pulpit and his first Powerpoint slide came on the screen. He began to speak, stopped in mid-sentence, pointed at me in a crowd of two hundred and prophesied over me. I was not a member of the Church, and this man knew things I had never told anyone. He knew about my illness, and that I was planning to quit seminary after my diagnosis. I felt like running. I was sobbing uncontrollably and everyone was staring at me. I'll never forget it, it really changed my life and the direction I was going. I went in that room a scoffer, and I honestly believe that not only did God put me in my place, but I still see it as the turning point in my faith in his supernatural power. Whoever says signs and wonders aren't for today should have been there.

[Watchman]

A man who claimed to have a gift of prophecy visited a Church not far from my home about four months ago. I went to hear him with serious doubts in my mind. I prayed for a spirit of discernment on my way into the building. He got up to the pulpit and his first Powerpoint slide came on the screen. He began to speak, stopped in mid-sentence, pointed at me in a crowd of two hundred and prophesied over me. I was not a member of the Church, and this man knew things I had never told anyone. He knew about my illness, and that I was planning to quit seminary after my diagnosis. I felt like running. I was sobbing uncontrollably and everyone was staring at me. I'll never forget it, it really changed my life and the direction I was going. I went in that room a scoffer, and I honestly believe that not only did God put me in my place, but I still see it as the turning point in my faith in his supernatural power. Whoever says signs and wonders aren't for today should have been there.

I've had a very similar experience. It is quite unsettling for someone you've never met before to tell you things about yourself...especially secrets you haven't divulged to anyone. Thanks for sharing, HoboTone.

W

[Watchman]

In another thread, and in this one, the question was raised, "why not kick the fake prophets out and get back to what works--Christ crucified!" I addressed this earlier, but my answer was very partial. This needs to be added: prophecy is rarely about salvation. If all that is preached is Christ crucified, all that will be made, as in Corinth, will be immature, carnal, baby saints. Paul told the Corinthians:

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 1 Corinthians 15:3-7

We know these immature, wayward saints were saved...no question. But recall what he'd previously told them:

...we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing...And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal.
1 Corinthians 2:6, 3:1-3a

So if all these saints ever heard was the milk of the gospel, it stands to reason that they would remain babies, yes? They're already saved, so there is no sense repeating, as is done in numerous places every Sunday morning, the gospel of salvation over and again to folks who are already saved. The purposes of prophecy are, for the most part, edification, exhortation, and comfort to believers. Prophets often bring the meat, after the milk has done its job. The meat never forgets, diminishes, or ignores the milk--Christ crucified, dead, and raised. It simply takes people on toward maturity. The idea that prophets are not preaching the gospel is bogus...they are simply proclaiming the maturation parts of the good news...not the milk. Pastors and teachers, likewise, can do this. The point is that not every message was EVER intended to deal with ye olde milk! Another way of putting it is: prophecy is more about sanctification than justification.

W

[zone]

In another thread, and in this one, the question was raised, "why not kick the fake prophets out and get back to what works--Christ crucified!" I addressed this earlier, but my answer was very partial. This needs to be added: prophecy is rarely about salvation. If all that is preached is Christ crucified, all that will be made, as in Corinth, will be immature, carnal, baby saints. Paul told the Corinthians:

For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 1 Corinthians 15:3-7

We know these immature, wayward saints were saved...no question. But recall what he'd previously told them:

...we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing...And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal.
1 Corinthians 2:6, 3:1-3a

So if all these saints ever heard was the milk of the gospel, it stands to reason that they would remain babies, yes? They're already saved, so there is no sense repeating, as is done in numerous places every Sunday morning, the gospel of salvation over and again to folks who are already saved. The purposes of prophecy are, for the most part, edification, exhortation, and comfort to believers. Prophets often bring the meat, after the milk has done its job. The meat never forgets, diminishes, or ignores the milk--Christ crucified, dead, and raised. It simply takes people on toward maturity. The idea that prophets are not preaching the gospel is bogus...they are simply proclaiming the maturation parts of the good news...not the milk. Pastors and teachers, likewise, can do this. The point is that not every message was EVER intended to deal with ye olde milk! Another way of putting it is: prophecy is more about sanctification than justification.

W

you've clearly never attended a service where a Lectionary is used - OT and NT readings, from which the Pastor crafts his sermon....we go through the entire Bible, chapter by chapter, contrasting the Law & The Gospel.

God's Word speaks, every Sunday....and has the power to both save, and sanctify.
it is interesting, exciting and we are faithful to it.

i wouldn't trade my faithful pastor and the quiet reverence we have while we listen and learn for some guy claiming Father is speaking through him....revealing what exactly?

nah....nite tho.

If all that is preached is Christ crucified, all that will be made, as in Corinth, will be immature, carnal, baby saints.

that's a pretty dangerous statement to make.

and are you suggesting the NAR types are offering up MEAT the word can't provide?
oh dear....