Prophets in the church...Ephesians 4

[zone]

Exactly... the point that satan can "deceive" people with false signs/wonders such as divination to deceive people into thinking prophecy if being spoken... SHOWS us that God STILL has people prophesying..

it does?
no...it shows people have been taught to believe God has prophets revived today (the same false teaching which inserted a gap into Acts & Joel is the one which brought us Dispensational theology....which ties in with the overall modern prophetic movements agenda - see prior posts).

just because some denominations teach the Five-Fold Ministry doesn't make it so.

If God did NOT have prophets, then satan could not use divination to deceive people into thinking a real prophet was speaking. The moment a person began to give prophecy then BAM... satan is revealed.

um....there are no prophets today.
the church has not looked for them, nor accepted them for nearly 2000 years.
the moment a person begins to deliver a prophecy we can know instantly its false.

Since God still will speak through a prophet of God and prophetic words given to the Body of Christ, all the while satan is still attempting to deceive... that is WHY we are to TEST THE SPIRITS.

If God ended prophecy... then that means NO NEED to test!! The moment prophecy began, it could only be satan inspiring the deceitful words.

this is flawed logic, and really should be pretty clear evidence that there's really something wrong.

God is not the author of confusion.

what do we need prophets for?
everything is written.
my Bible nears the end with these words:

Revelation 22
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

and then it has a back cover.
finished.

[Slug1]

God is not the author of confusion.

Amen... thus when a prophet of God edifies the church or an individual... they are not confused but... edified.

Saying there are no prophets CAUSES the glory God produced as people or a person praised God for that edification... causes that glory to end with the person(s) saying... NOPE.

Don't worry, those who don't say, NOPE.... can praise God with those who give testimony of how God edified them and then the GLORY to God continues.

[Watchman]

my Bible nears the end with these words:

Revelation 22
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

and then it has a back cover.
finished.

That quote applies to the Revelation of the Christ only...the words of the prophecy of THIS book. The Bible wasn't even a blip on the radar when John penned those words. Until you find a command that states all the sacred writings are to be compiled into a book, and until you find a God-breathed list of said writings, your point is moot and irrelevant.

W
PS: you omitted the holy maps!

[zone]

Amen... thus when a prophet of God edifies the church or an individual... they are not confused but... edified.

Saying there are no prophets CAUSES the glory God produced as people or a person praised God for that edification... causes that glory to end with the person(s) saying... NOPE.

Don't worry, those who don't say, NOPE.... can praise God with those who give testimony of how God edified them and then the GLORY to God continues.

hi slug.
i know i won't be the one to resolve this issue.
its much bigger than both of us at this point.
but i do have to stand for my convictions.

just because one feels edified, doesn't mean it came from God - we're in a spiritual war, Slug - and its very serious indeed....the target is the church. we were warned one front would be false prophets...i hear next to nothing from those within pentescostal/prophetic ministries against the 'false prophets' that are making their stuff look bad - aside from an aknowledgement that there are some out there.

why does it seem to be cessationists who are do the discerning/digging?

anyways.....
ttyl
zone.

[zone]

That quote applies to the Revelation of the Christ only...the words of the prophecy of THIS book. The Bible wasn't even a blip on the radar when John penned those words. Until you find a command that states all the sacred writings are to be compiled into a book, and until you find a God-breathed list of said writings, your point is moot and irrelevant.

W
PS: you omitted the holy maps!

yes, i considered inserting "expect the 'That quote applies to the Revelation of the Christ only...the words of the prophecy of THIS book' defense" into that post. but forgot to. s'okay. not very original anyhow

"all the sacred writings.....a God-breathed list of said writings"

i'll take my chances with my Bible and the Holy Spirit.

[Watchman]

yes, i considered inserting "expect the 'That quote applies to the Revelation of the Christ only...the words of the prophecy of THIS book' defense" into that post. but forgot to. s'okay. not very original anyhow

"all the sacred writings.....a God-breathed list of said writings"

i'll take my chances with my Bible and the Holy Spirit.

That is exactly what we're all doing. It's just that He works in ways you decline to believe. Originality has nothing to do with my comment. It stands. Since you're sticking with scripture, then why not pony up the command for Bible compilation and the commanded list of writings to be included? Otherwise, you're actually adding to God's words, since these things were never listed or commanded.

W

[zone]

That is exactly what we're all doing. It's just that He works in ways you decline to believe. Originality has nothing to do with my comment. It stands. Since you're sticking with scripture, then why not pony up the command for Bible compilation and the commanded list of writings to be included? Otherwise, you're actually adding to God's words, since these things were never listed or commanded.

W

Sola Scriptura - Scripture Alone
Solus Christus - Christ Alone
Sola Gratia - Grace Alone
Sola Fide - Faith Alone
Soli Deo Gloria - The Glory of God Alone

Unwarranted confidence in human ability is a product of fallen human nature ... God's grace in Christ is not merely necessary but is the sole efficient cause of salvation. We confess that human beings are born spiritually dead and are incapable even of cooperating with regenerating grace. We reaffirm that in salvation we are rescued from God's wrath by his grace alone. It is the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that brings us to Christ by releasing us from our bondage to sin and raising us from spiritual death to spiritual life. We deny that salvation is in any sense a human work. Human methods, techniques or strategies by themselves cannot accomplish this transformation. Faith is not produced by our unregenerated human nature. - Cambridge Declaration



i trust my Bible. i trust God to preserve His instructions for me and His Gospel which has the power to save men's souls. its been good enough for untold numbers of saints, its good enough for me.

people who want to deconstruct all that, and make doctrine and the Lord's Plan and Work a free-for-all can have it. not the least bit attracted to the pentecostal/prophetic thing.

they've chosen signs and wonders and utterances by men calling themselves prophets (FIRST-PERSON VERBATIM utterance supposedly by Father no less!) - and they will trust THAT readily enough.

tanks, but no tanks

[HoboTone]

Maybe I'm simplistic in thought, but I am considering this;

Doesn't the fact that the Bible refers to 'false prophets' carry the implication that not all prophets will be false?

[Slug1]

Maybe I'm simplistic in thought, but I am considering this;

Doesn't the fact that the Bible refers to 'false prophets' carry the implication that not all prophets will be false?

Yes... it's only because of man-made doctrine that ALL prophets are false. The Bible is so very clear to warn us that there will ALSO be false prophets. The Bible is not saying ALL prophets are false... only man-made doctrines say that.

Thus the problem the Body of Christ has today in discerning "spirits" as they are to test. Some test through what the doctrine teaches (which is ALL prophets are false because ALL prophecy has ended according to those man-made doctrines)... so any prophetic word they come into contact with... they will IMMEDIATELY claim is false.

[Michelle71]

I realize and understand there is a 'modern prophetic movement.' However, I do not understand your final statement and its conclusion. How does one misunderstand who Christ is, and how, per scripture, does one test the spirits? Would you expand a bit?

Thanks, Michelle!

W

Well, the whole oneness doctrine stating that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is leading a whole lot of people off track.

Test the spirits. 1JN4 explains it well.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

When a person thinks they are hearing from God, then the order in these scriptures is clear. We are to ask the questions of the Gospel of Christ. Any spirit, angel or person who does not confirm these things are false. The whole Gospel of Christ should be used.

1. Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh.
2. Is He the only begotten Son of God.
3. Did He die for our sins, and for our redemption back to God.
4. Is Jesus Christ sat at the right hand side of God the Father.
5. Was the Word of God born of a virgin.
6. Did Jesus Christ descend into hell, and raised again the third day.

These are the foundation of the true faith of the NT scriptures.

[Watchman]

Ephesians 4:1-16 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

(Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equippingof the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.


A few salient points seem to have been overlooked by those who disagree that there are prophets in the church.

1. The nature of the gifts Christ gave has been overlooked. Each of them represents a part of Him. We know Christ is to be formed in us, per Galatians 4:19. We are to be like Him.
.......apostles: Hebrews 3:1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
.......prophets: Luke 4:24 Then He said, “Assuredly, I say to you, no prophet is accepted in his own country.
.......evangelists (bringers of the gospel): Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the gospel of the kingdom
.......pastors (shepherds): John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
.......teachers: Matthew 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
It is easy to see that each of the gifts He gave represented part of Him.

2. These gifts are given for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry. How is this done? Simple. One ministers to others what they've been given. 1 Peter 4:10-11 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers, let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion forever and ever. When one ministers their gift to others, they are passing on what they've been given...ie equipping...and it is ALL done for God's glory, not for man's glory. We can not give what we have not received. Just as Jesus gave the words given Him by Abba, and just as He did only what He saw our Father doing, so are we to do. We are to walk as He walked (1 John 1:6)

3. What was the duration of these gifts of men to the church? They were given UNTIL the body of Christ reaches His full stature. Can anyone reasonably argue that the body of Christ on earth has EVER, since His ascension, attained His stature? Really?

4. Since all gifts were given for the same duration, then we either have them all, or we have none of them. A study of the laying on of hands will show that this was involved with equipping. It wasn't the hands...they were symbolic.

5. None of the gifts are empowered by anyone other than the Holy Spirit. Apostles had no power, other than the power of the Spirit. Likewise, the prophets could not hear God apart from the empowerment of the Spirit. The Spirit gives the words of the gospel to evangelists, and empowers both shepherds and teachers in their tasks. Apart from Christ, who sent His Spirit to be our Helper, we can do NOTHING.

6. Christ ascended that He might fill all things. He gave gifts of men to the church to minister Him that He might fill the church until she becomes His eyes, ears, feet, hands, etc., on the earth...until she reaches His fullness.

7. Since these gifts were given by Christ, being used to minister them denotes faith in Him, not in man or his abilities to read and do the scriptures. In fact, ignoring the gifts Christ gave is relying on the fleshly, soulish, fallen nature of man to accomplish spiritual things...something that is an utter impossibility.

The argument that people today are glorifying themselves by functioning as one of these gifts only holds water regarding the fakes. The genuine ones minister Christ, a portion of Him, for the glory of God. For someone to simply classify all as fakes is an insult to Christ, an insult to the Holy Spirit, and an insult to God's glory. The saints must be equipped to lovingly grow into the Head: who is Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher. We are to be like Him. This is ALL about the resurrected Christ (who came in the flesh, was born of a virgin, died for our redemption, was raised on the third day, and now sits at the right hand of our Father), and ALL about glorifying God through Him. And this is ALL scriptural.

blessings,

Watchman

[Free Indeed]

We know that there are many religious and government leaders that are members of Freemasonry, Scottish Rite and other of its various forms, and have been for years. The numbers are phenomenal of those involved from Southern Baptists, Pentecostals, Catholics, Mormons and Evangelicals.

Some noted leaders reported to be involved in these groups, from history and today in the United States and Canada have been: Norman Vincent Peale, (Scottish Rite,33° ) George Washington, Harry Truman, Newt Gingrich(33° ), George Bush (33° ;Skull and Bones), Bill Clinton (33° ), Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole (33° ), Jack Kemp (33° ), Rick Joyner (Knights of Malta), Andrew Young (National Council of Churches), Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland (33°)....

I don't have a lot to add, but as a Masonic historian, would like to make a few corrections to the above.

The list is correct on the following:

Dr. Peale, the famous Methodist minister and author, was indeed a 33° Scottish Rite Mason. So were President Truman and Ford, and Senators Dole and Kemp. George Washington was also a Mason.

However, Newt Gingrich, George Bush, Bill Clinton, Ronald Reagan, Rick Joyner, Andrew Young, Kenneth Hagin, and Kenneth Copleland were never Masons, much less 33° Scottish Rite Masons. Bill Clinton had been a member of the DeMolay Society, a Masonic-sponsored youth organization. Ronald Reagan received certificates of honor from the Scottish Rite Supreme Council and Shriners Imperial Council, but was never a member of any of the organizations. George Bush was a member of the Skull and Bones Society, which is a college fraternity and senior society at Yale University, and completely separate organization from the Masonic fraternity.

Rick Joyner joined some group calling themselves "Knights of Malta", but this was not the real Knights of Malta (Sovereign Military Order of Malta), which is a Roman Catholic order of chivalry.

[PneumaPsucheSoma]

Well, the whole oneness doctrine stating that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is leading a whole lot of people off track.

Test the spirits. 1JN4 explains it well.



When a person thinks they are hearing from God, then the order in these scriptures is clear. We are to ask the questions of the Gospel of Christ. Any spirit, angel or person who does not confirm these things are false. The whole Gospel of Christ should be used.

1. Did Jesus Christ come in the flesh.
2. Is He the only begotten Son of God.
3. Did He die for our sins, and for our redemption back to God.
4. Is Jesus Christ sat at the right hand side of God the Father.
5. Was the Word of God born of a virgin.
6. Did Jesus Christ descend into hell, and raised again the third day.

These are the foundation of the true faith of the NT scriptures.

4... Right hand "side" of God the Father is yet another conceptual inference of rote indoctrination and is not in scripture.