The "Second Advent".....

[MaryFreeman]

The concept of a second coming of Christ is found in scripture, but the concept of a third coming after His second coming is not there.

Of course it isn't.... Because there is no other coming after He sets foot on earth.... That's the last time.... But there will be at least one time before it.... Which makes your "concept of a second coming" actually the third known time He comes.... As I stated before Jesus has been on this earth more times than just His physical birth.... Why limit Him to just one more coming? Especially when there is scriptural evidence of more than one?

[John 8:32]

The term "second coming" may not be in scripture but the concept of a second coming of Christ is there.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The concept of a second coming of Christ is found in scripture, but the concept of a third coming after His second coming is not there.

One of the very few times we agree, you are absolutely correct.

Christ may come and go as He pleases, but the second coming is a one-off.

[MaryFreeman]

One of the very few times we agree, you are absolutely correct.

Christ may come and go as He pleases, but the second coming is a one-off.

See? This is my beef....

Its like telling Jesus that He must hold off til we think it is time for Him to come....

Human terms keeping humans from the truth of Gods word.... Which is why I detest labels.... The coming being referred to is the most visible coming.... Not the ONLY coming.... I posted just a few scriptures that indicate that there is more than one future coming.... Which should throw out the term "second coming".... Especially since the "first coming" was not the only time Jesus ever landed on earth.... It was the only time He dressed up in a human body.... Not the only time He has been here....

[John 8:32]

See? This is my beef....

Its like telling Jesus that He must hold off til we think it is time for Him to come....

Human terms keeping humans from the truth of Gods word.... Which is why I detest labels.... The coming being referred to is the most visible coming.... Not the ONLY coming.... I posted just a few scriptures that indicate that there is more than one future coming.... Which should throw out the term "second coming".... Especially since the "first coming" was not the only time Jesus ever landed on earth.... It was the only time He dressed up in a human body.... Not the only time He has been here....

I don't think you have to worry about that, likely thousands (Harold Camping the latest) have told Christ when to come back and He has not returned. He will return according to...

Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

He will return when the proper time comes. He will return when the Father says "Go, my Son, go!"

[David Taylor]

The "Advent" of Christ is found throughout the NT...you just have to use the right language to find that word. It is a Latin word. It is rendered 'Coming' in English, and 'Parousia' in Greek.

[John146]

Of course it isn't.... Because there is no other coming after He sets foot on earth.... That's the last time.... But there will be at least one time before it....

No, scripture doesn't teach that anywhere.

Which makes your "concept of a second coming" actually the third known time He comes....

What is your understanding of the verses I quoted? There is obviously only a first and second coming in the context of those verses, so where are you coming up with a third coming?

As I stated before Jesus has been on this earth more times than just His physical birth.... Why limit Him to just one more coming? Especially when there is scriptural evidence of more than one?

As a man He has only been here once and He is coming back once. That's what verses like Heb 9:28 and Acts 1:9-11 mean. In the context of Him coming as a man there are only two comings of Christ taught in scripture, one of which occurred a long time ago.

[John146]

One of the very few times we agree, you are absolutely correct.

Christ may come and go as He pleases, but the second coming is a one-off.

I don't even know what to make of it when we agree on something since we strongly disagree on most things. But at least we agree on something.

[MyCoolUsername]

Interesting, your "rapture" theory has Christ returning twice. That kinda makes it a third coming, now doesn't it?

I like you.
We are going to get along well.

[MaryFreeman]

No, scripture doesn't teach that anywhere.

I posted scripture that DOES teach that.... And specifically that.... Go find that post....

What is your understanding of the verses I quoted? There is obviously only a first and second coming in the context of those verses, so where are you coming up with a third coming?

See answer above....

As a man He has only been here once and He is coming back once. That's what verses like Heb 9:28 and Acts 1:9-11 mean. In the context of Him coming as a man there are only two comings of Christ taught in scripture, one of which occurred a long time ago.

See? There is my beef again!

There is most certainly NOT only two comings of Christ taught in scripture.... Man or God He has been here more than once and will be coming here again more than once.... I posted scripture that emphatically states that.... Again.... Go find that post....

...and He is coming back once.

Did you not read what I posted?

I can and will look for scripture that tells of TWO future comings.... When I have more time and can devote it to this....

[John146]

I posted scripture that DOES teach that.... And specifically that.... Go find that post....

I see that post and I disagree with your conclusions. Am I obligated to agree with your understanding of scripture? No, I am not. Scripture teaches that Christ will bodily descend from heaven only once in the future. That event is recorded in Heb 9:28, Acts 1:11, 1 Thess 4:14-17, 2 Thess 2:1, Matt 24:27-Matt 25:46, Mark 13:26-37, Luke 21:25-38 and other passages.

See? There is my beef again!

There is most certainly NOT only two comings of Christ taught in scripture..

You have a beef with a straw man, not with me. I am speaking only in terms of bodily comings of Christ. He did not come bodily to the earth until He was born of the virgin Mary. He may have appeared in one form or another before that, but He did not become flesh until He was born on the earth. That was His first bodily visible coming and He is coming again visibly and bodily once. That is what scripture clearly teaches. There are only two visible, bodily comings of Christ taught in scripture, one of which occurred long ago when He was born of the virgin Mary. That is my point. Do you disagree with that?

Man or God He has been here more than once and will be coming here again more than once.... I posted scripture that emphatically states that.... Again.... Go find that post....

I didn't miss your post. I just completely disagree that the verses you referenced teach what you think they teach.

Did you not read what I posted?

Yes, I did. And I disagree with what some of what you have posted. Am I allowed to disagree with you? Are you infallible?

I can and will look for scripture that tells of TWO future comings.... When I have more time and can devote it to this....

In terms of two future visible, bodily comings of Christ you can have all the time in the world and you won't find any scripture which teaches that.

[MaryFreeman]

I see that post and I disagree with your conclusions. Am I obligated to agree with your understanding of scripture? No, I am not. Scripture teaches that Christ will bodily descend from heaven only once in the future. That event is recorded in Heb 9:28, Acts 1:11, 1 Thess 4:14-17, 2 Thess 2:1, Matt 24:27-Matt 25:46, Mark 13:26-37, Luke 21:25-38 and other passages.

No you aren't obligated to agree with me.... You can simply ignore the differences in the scriptures we both quoted and say they are all speaking of the same thing.... You can also decline to answer the questions in my post concerning what Jesus Himself taught....

It isn't going to hurt me....

You have a beef with a straw man, not with me. I am speaking only in terms of bodily comings of Christ. He did not come bodily to the earth until He was born of the virgin Mary. He may have appeared in one form or another before that, but He did not become flesh until He was born on the earth. That was His first bodily visible coming and He is coming again visibly and bodily once. That is what scripture clearly teaches. There are only two visible, bodily comings of Christ taught in scripture, one of which occurred long ago when He was born of the virgin Mary. That is my point. Do you disagree with that?

I am too busy wondering why bodily form matters? The fact is Jesus made numerous trips to earth whether He had a body or not.... Yes I do disagree that the scriptures teach of only one future coming of Christ and shared scripture that leads me to believe otherwise....

I didn't miss your post. I just completely disagree that the verses you referenced teach what you think they teach.

Yes, I did. And I disagree with what some of what you have posted. Am I allowed to disagree with you? Are you infallible?

For some reason I thought we were having a conversation in which we discussed things.... If we disagree we state why.... We tell each other what the scriptures mean to each of us.... You know.... Things like that....

In terms of two future visible, bodily comings of Christ you can have all the time in the world and you won't find any scripture which teaches that.

I didn't say visible or bodily.... I said two comings....

[billy-brown 2]

And then Revelation fills in some details showing that there is more than one resurrection, and more than one age...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There is a coming millenium. During this millenium, the "rest of the dead" are not alive...

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

They are not part of the first resurrection, but live again at least 1000 years after the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first resurrection involves no judgement at the time of the resurrection as witnessed by verses 1-10. That is not hard to understand...

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The House of God (the church) is being judged right now.

Those in the resurrections of verses 11-15 are then judged.

There is more than one age.

This is not too difficult of a concept, humans realize that there was a stone age, bronze age, iron age. There was the dark ages, the middle ages etc. Seems to me that these ages came to an end. There was more than one age and each age had an end.

John,

There are exactly two (2) ages--according to Jesus.

Indeed, Jesus has indicated already that there are two ages only: this age (the one we are living in now) and that age; Jesus is mentioning these things below:

Luke 20
34Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,

35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;

36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

And those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead are the people of faith in God. Thus, these would be the "Good fish" of this passage:

Matt. 13 (from Jesus . . .)
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But notice in Matt. 13: 47-50 that the "Good fish" and the "Bad fish" are gathered at the same time; therefore, the "Bad fish" are thrown into the furnace of fire at the end of this current age.

And so, what time are the "Good fish" and the "Bad fish" gathered? What did Jesus say?

Well, that time is harvest time, and harvest time is at the end of this age-- as taught here:

Matt. 13
36Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Yes?

[divaD]

I think I put this in the right spot....

Can't think of a better place to put it....

I have an issue with the term "Second coming".... Or "Second Advent" if you'd rather....

I search and search all through my bible and simply cannot find the term anywhere....

And besides that.... Christ came to earth and spoke to quite a few OT people.... Though they didn't know who He was.... Called Him the Angel of the Lord....

And besides that.... People use this unbiblical term to say that Jesus will only come back one time.... They use it to discredit the Rapture of the church.... Jesus couldn't possibly come back more than once or it wouldn't be called the second coming right? But the bible never says He will only come back once.... Never....

Do a word search.... You won't find that term....

Ok so that is more than one issue....

But still.... Could someone explain why Jesus is being put in a box that limits His return to just one showing?

Makes about as much sense as "sinner saved by grace"

Here's something to think about. First of all, you are incorrect if you think Jesus comes for His church during a pretrib rapture. But let's just put that aside for the moment. Suppose that you ended up and saw the errors in your understanding, thus you ended up believing the rapture is post, not pre. You would still be wrong in the eyes of many, meaning non premils, since you would see the 1000 years as being future, instead of now or in the past. You can't win for losing. Me being a post-tribber and all...well I used to think I had a lot in common with non premils because they too would be post trib. Wrong. In their eyes I'm still incorrect because I'm a premil. So the way it looks to me then, since a good majority of Christians conclude premil is incorrect to begin with, then it doesn't matter if you're pre-trib, mid-trib, or even post -trib, you're still going to be wrong in many folk's eyes, the fact you are a premil. With that in mind, tho I know your conclusions are wrong, who am I to try and correct your misunderstanding, since I'm wrong no matter what, in some folk's eyes, the fact I'm premil?

My point is, for the sake of argument, premil is incorrect. This would mean that you would still be wrong no matter what position you held to. I mean in the eyes of non premils. What's interesting about premil is this. You have several choices to choose from...pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. Non premils have no choices to choose from. They're all post-trib by default. Which gets me to thinking. Which is more logical? A position that has several conclusions to choose from? Or a position that only has one conclusion to choose from? But on the flip side of that, all premils agree when the 1000 years begins..it's at the coming recorded in Rev 19. But not all non premils agree when the beginning of the 1000 years is..IOW, it's a multiple choice question. So which is more logical, a position that has only one conclusion to come to, or a position where the conclusion is a based on multiple choice?

[PJW]

How many times did Jesus come to speak to Paul after Paul's visitation on the road to Damascus?

[DurbanDude]

Luk 21:29-36 LITV And He spoke a parable to them: You see the fig tree and all the trees. (30) Now when they sprout leaves, seeing it, you will know from yourselves that now the summer is near. (31) So also when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. (32) Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur. (33) The heaven and the earth will pass away, but My Words will not pass away, never! (34) But take heed to yourselves that your hearts not be loaded down with headaches, and drinking, and anxieties of life, and that day come suddenly upon you (35) as a snare, for it will come in on all those sitting on the face of all the earth. Isa. 24:17 (36) Then be watchful at every time, begging that you be counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.

The fig tree is a symbol of Israel.... So when you see Israel reborn as a fig tree is rejuvenated and budding leaves at the start of summer.... Then you know that you are living in the time just before the end.... But what is He talking about when He says to watch and pray that you are "counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen"?

I'll back up a few verses....

Luk 21:25-28 LITV And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with bewilderment, roaring of sea and of surf, (26) men fainting from fear, and expectation of the things coming on the earth. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (27) And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory. Dan. 7:13 (28) But these things beginning to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.

When these things start to happen on earth we are to look to the sky.... Why? Because those counted worthy will escape the trouble to come.... Redemption draws near....

The fig tree was a common symbol for Israel, because it was common in Israel. Now because of it being common in Israel, it also symbolised other things, it signalled the coming of summer. Note the verse mentions all the trees, if it was referring to all countries along with Israel this would make no sense , because how can all the countries "sprout" at the same time? Looking at the text, and the context, it just seems like Jesus was referring to the sprouting trees as an example of commonly known predictive signs that precede an event, ie summer. If we see trees sprout, this gives us confidence in the coming summer, in the same manner be sure that Jesus will be coming when we see the early warning signs. You can't base a whole pre-trib rapture teaching on your view of the context of the fig tree in Luke, especially when other trees are mentioned as well.

In addition there is an alternative context to "escape all these things". The way you have interpreted has a slight taste of contradiction about it, because Jesus would then be saying to His followers, follow me faithfully and you will see the signs, you will stand before kings , you will experience a great tribulation, you will anticipate my coming, but if you follow me faithfully none of this will happen to you because you will escape it all. Do you see the apparent contradiction?
If you look closely at the context, Jesus is more concerned about souls than saving bodies from persecution and tribulation:
But take heed to yourselves that your hearts not be loaded down with headaches, and drinking, and anxieties of life, and that day come suddenly upon you (35) as a snare, for it will come in on all those sitting on the face of all the earth. Isa. 24:17 (36) Then be watchful at every time, begging that you be counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man

You see? Context itself is showing that Jesus is concerned that His followers escape behaviour patterns that draw us away from Him. Drunkenness and concerns of life, these are the things to watch out for, and to escape, if we are worthy.

Rev 3:7-11 LITV [COLOR="#FF0000"]And to the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia, write: These things says the Holy One, the True One, the One having "the key of David," "the One opening, and no one shuts; and shuts, and no one opens:" Isa. 22:22 (8) I know your works. Behold, I have given a door being opened before you, and no one is able to shut it, for you have a little power and have kept My Word, and have not denied My name. (9) Behold, I give out of the synagogue of Satan those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but they lie. Behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they shall know that I loved you. (10) Because you kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which is going to come on all the habitable world in order to try those dwelling on the earth. (11)

Once again, getting a pre-trib rapture from this text does appear likely until you delve deeper. There are a number of explantions for this verse, one of them being that the church in Philadelphia did cease to exist. Therefore they have already been kept from the hour of trial. Another explanation is that the Greek simply means "of". Thus we have to look at the meaning of the phrase "keep you". This means to take care of/protect/guard.

The Greek basically means "Of the hour of trial that is coming, I will protect you."

The post-trib rapture view extends from a general overlap of all the events of the second coming. If you believe in two second comings, by default you have to believe in two raptures. Because Paul as a pre-trib believer is looking forward to a rapture in which the dead will rise first (1 thess 4), and then tribulation believers will also have a rapture according to Matthew 24/Mark 13, in which the elect are the ones to be gathered by the angels, and the rest are left behind and not gathered because we know they are left in their place (in bed and in the fields). So the pre-trib rapture view has two comings, two gatherings by the angels, and two trumpets.

Then we get chapters like 2 Thessalonians, when the relief predicted for suffering PRE-TRIB christians occurs on the same day when the Lord is revealed with fire, and the unsaved on that day are seperated forever:
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

And also 2 Thessalonians 2, where the gathering of the PRE-TRIB saints is associated with the coming of Jesus and occurs AFTER the appearance of the antichrist:
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So if we take all the evidence into account, instead of two seperate comings of Jesus with his angels, two seperate gatherings of saints, two seperate trumpets, the bible more easily fits in with these verses all describing the same event.

(CAPS for emphasis ony )