The "Second Advent".....

[MaryFreeman]

I think I put this in the right spot....

Can't think of a better place to put it....

I have an issue with the term "Second coming".... Or "Second Advent" if you'd rather....

I search and search all through my bible and simply cannot find the term anywhere....

And besides that.... Christ came to earth and spoke to quite a few OT people.... Though they didn't know who He was.... Called Him the Angel of the Lord....

And besides that.... People use this unbiblical term to say that Jesus will only come back one time.... They use it to discredit the Rapture of the church.... Jesus couldn't possibly come back more than once or it wouldn't be called the second coming right? But the bible never says He will only come back once.... Never....

Do a word search.... You won't find that term....

Ok so that is more than one issue....

But still.... Could someone explain why Jesus is being put in a box that limits His return to just one showing?

Makes about as much sense as "sinner saved by grace"

[jeffweeder]

How many comings did Jesus refer to? He promised to come back and the faithful look forward to it.

Mockers refer to the promise of his coming, and the believing know what kind of people they ought to be before it does happen.

This led the writer of Hebrews to say that he will appear a second time to judge.
His reward will be with him when he comes.
When he appears we will be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

I dont believe Jesus spoke about himself coming multiple times, but he did mention something about this all happening on the last day.

[Traveler]

Well here are a few thoughts

When Jesus comes at the rapture we are to meet him in the clouds, in other words his feet are not going to be on the ground.

But when he returns at the battle of Armageddon for the setting up of his millennial reign, which happens quite a bit later, he returns to stay here.

[John 8:32]

Well here are a few thoughts

When Jesus comes at the rapture we are to meet him in the clouds, in other words his feet are not going to be on the ground.

But when he returns at the battle of Armageddon for the setting up of his millennial reign, which happens quite a bit later, he returns to stay here.

Interesting, your "rapture" theory has Christ returning twice. That kinda makes it a third coming, now doesn't it?

[MaryFreeman]

Interesting, your "rapture" theory has Christ returning twice. That kinda makes it a third coming, now doesn't it?

Wouldn't it?

Is that an impossibility?

[John 8:32]

Wouldn't it?

Is that an impossibility?

A second coming the third time. Hmmm, things that make you go Hmmm.

[MaryFreeman]

A second coming the third time. Hmmm, things that make you go Hmmm.

There were many comings of Jesus before His physical birth.... If you believe bible scholars.... The Angel of the Lord was Jesus.... The Lord whom Abraham spoke to physically was Jesus.... It had to be because no physical man can look on God and live....

So if Jesus could come and go as He pleased in the OT then why in the world is everyone limiting His coming again to just once? As if it is physically impossible for it to happen more than one time! That makes no sense....

[John 8:32]

There were many comings of Jesus before His physical birth.... If you believe bible scholars.... The Angel of the Lord was Jesus.... The Lord whom Abraham spoke to physically was Jesus.... It had to be because no physical man can look on God and live....

So if Jesus could come and go as He pleased in the OT then why in the world is everyone limiting His coming again to just once? As if it is physically impossible for it to happen more than one time! That makes no sense....

Ah, but the coming we are referring to is the time of Zech 14, Mat 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Rev 19, etc. How many times do you suppose this has happened or will happen? Several, many, thousands or just once?

[MaryFreeman]

Ah, but the coming we are referring to is the time of Zech 14, Mat 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Rev 19, etc. How many times do you suppose this has happened or will happen? Several, many, thousands or just once?

Zec 14:1-21 LITV Behold, the day of Jehovah comes, and your spoil shall be divided among you. (2) For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem. And the city shall be captured, and the houses plundered, and the women ravished. And half the city shall go into exile and the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (3) And Jehovah shall go out and fight against those nations, like the day He fought in the day of battle. (4) And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall divide from its middle, from the east even to the west, a very great valley. And half of the mountain shall move toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (5) And you shall flee to the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. And Jehovah my God shall come, and all the saints with You. (6) And it will be in that day, there shall not be light; the glorious ones will shrink. (7) And it will be one day which shall be known to Jehovah; not day and not night, but it will be, there will be light at evening time. (8) And it shall be in that day, living waters shall go out from Jerusalem, half of them shall go toward the eastern sea, and half of them toward the western sea; in summer and in winter it shall be. (9) And Jehovah shall be King over all the earth. In that day there shall be one Jehovah, and His name one. (10) All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. And it shall rise and dwell in its place, from Benjamin's Gate to the place of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananeel to the king's winepresses. (11) And they shall live in it. And there shall not again be a shutting in, but Jerusalem shall dwell safely. (12) And this shall be the plague with which Jehovah will strike all the peoples who have fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rest in their sockets, and their tongues shall rot in their mouths. (13) And it shall be in that day, a great panic of Jehovah shall be among them; and they shall each one lay hold of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor. (14) And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of the surrounding nations shall be gathered, gold, and silver, and clothing, very much. (15) And so shall be the plague of the horse, the mule, the camel, and the ass, and all the beasts which shall be in those camps, like this plague. (16) And it shall be, everyone who is left from all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of Hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (17) And it shall be, whoever will not go up from the families of the earth to Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of Hosts, there shall even be no rain on them. (18) And if the family of Egypt does not go up, nor come in, then the rain shall not be on them, but the plague with which Jehovah shall strike the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (19) This shall be Egypt's offense, and the offense of all nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. (20) In that day there shall be on the bells of the horses, HOLY TO JEHOVAH. And the pots in the house of Jehovah shall be like the bowls before the altar. (21) And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holy to Jehovah of Hosts. And all those who sacrifice shall come and take of them, and boil in them. And in that day there shall not be a trader in the house of Jehovah of Hosts any more.

This speaks of the day Jesus will come back and establish a kingdom that He will rule for one thousand years.... Which happens ONCE....

Matthew 24 speaks of the period just before the thousand year reign which we call "The tribulation".... Naturally it only happens once....

Ah but Luke is what I wish to get to.... Because Jesus speaks of the same thing that He spoke of in Matthew and Mark.... But He adds something very interesting.... Watch this:

Luk 21:29-36 LITV And He spoke a parable to them: You see the fig tree and all the trees. (30) Now when they sprout leaves, seeing it, you will know from yourselves that now the summer is near. (31) So also when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. (32) Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur. (33) The heaven and the earth will pass away, but My Words will not pass away, never! (34) But take heed to yourselves that your hearts not be loaded down with headaches, and drinking, and anxieties of life, and that day come suddenly upon you (35) as a snare, for it will come in on all those sitting on the face of all the earth. Isa. 24:17 (36) Then be watchful at every time, begging that you be counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.

The fig tree is a symbol of Israel.... So when you see Israel reborn as a fig tree is rejuvenated and budding leaves at the start of summer.... Then you know that you are living in the time just before the end.... But what is He talking about when He says to watch and pray that you are "counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen"?

I'll back up a few verses....

Luk 21:25-28 LITV And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with bewilderment, roaring of sea and of surf, (26) men fainting from fear, and expectation of the things coming on the earth. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (27) And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory. Dan. 7:13 (28) But these things beginning to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.

When these things start to happen on earth we are to look to the sky.... Why? Because those counted worthy will escape the trouble to come.... Redemption draws near....

This event is popularly known as the Rapture of the church.... I am sure we all know where the term originated from so I won't belabor the point.... But these verses match up nicely with what Jesus told the church of Philadelphia....

Rev 3:7-11 LITV And to the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia, write: These things says the Holy One, the True One, the One having "the key of David," "the One opening, and no one shuts; and shuts, and no one opens:" Isa. 22:22 (8) I know your works. Behold, I have given a door being opened before you, and no one is able to shut it, for you have a little power and have kept My Word, and have not denied My name. (9) Behold, I give out of the synagogue of Satan those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but they lie. Behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they shall know that I loved you. (10) Because you kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which is going to come on all the habitable world in order to try those dwelling on the earth. (11) Behold, I am coming quickly. Hold what you have that no one take your crown.

Of course the assembly in Philadelphia is symbolic of the bride of Christ.... His true church.... Those who keep His commandments.... Those who don't just talk the talk.... They will be kept out of the hour of trial.... But He doesn't hide them under a rock....

Mat 24:38-42 LITV For as they were in the days before the flood: eating, and drinking, marrying, and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah went into the ark. (39) And they did not know until the flood came and took all away. So also will be the coming of the Son of Man. (40) At that time two will be out in the field; the one is taken away, and the one is left; (41) two grinding at the mill; one is taken away, and one is left. (42) Watch, then, for you do not know in what hour your Lord comes.

This is different from the dragnet parable.... In the dragnet all the fish are caught and then separated.... In this one Jesus says one will be taken and the other left.... Right where they were.... And the one left is not thrown into the lake of fire.... So this isn't a judgment either.... This shows that the dragnet happens after this particular event.... Which means that even after the Rapture people still have a chance to come to Christ.... Because look.... He separates the good fish from the bad.... The ones taken were the ones counted worthy to escape the events of the tribulation.... Because we are not subject to Gods wrath.... How could we be? We accepted His son.... We kept His commandments and loved Him beyond all human reason and logic....

I keep getting asked how many times the events in your scriptures occur.... Once.... But the event in the scriptures I listed happens once too.... Apart from the events involving the hour of trial and the end of the age....

I could post more.... But why?

The question was why do people limit Jesus to just one future coming.... When He proved in the ot that He can come and go as He pleases....

[DurbanDude]

Luk 21:29-36 LITV And He spoke a parable to them: You see the fig tree and all the trees. (30) Now when they sprout leaves, seeing it, you will know from yourselves that now the summer is near. (31) So also when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. (32) Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur. (33) The heaven and the earth will pass away, but My Words will not pass away, never! (34) But take heed to yourselves that your hearts not be loaded down with headaches, and drinking, and anxieties of life, and that day come suddenly upon you (35) as a snare, for it will come in on all those sitting on the face of all the earth. Isa. 24:17 (36) Then be watchful at every time, begging that you be counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.

The fig tree is a symbol of Israel.... So when you see Israel reborn as a fig tree is rejuvenated and budding leaves at the start of summer.... Then you know that you are living in the time just before the end.... But what is He talking about when He says to watch and pray that you are "counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen"?

I'll back up a few verses....

Luk 21:25-28 LITV And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with bewilderment, roaring of sea and of surf, (26) men fainting from fear, and expectation of the things coming on the earth. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (27) And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory. Dan. 7:13 (28) But these things beginning to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.

When these things start to happen on earth we are to look to the sky.... Why? Because those counted worthy will escape the trouble to come.... Redemption draws near....

The fig tree was a common symbol for Israel, because it was common in Israel. Now because of it being common in Israel, it also symbolised other things, it signalled the coming of summer. Note the verse mentions all the trees, if it was referring to all countries along with Israel this would make no sense , because how can all the countries "sprout" at the same time? Looking at the text, and the context, it just seems like Jesus was referring to the sprouting trees as an example of commonly known predictive signs that precede an event, ie summer. If we see trees sprout, this gives us confidence in the coming summer, in the same manner be sure that Jesus will be coming when we see the early warning signs. You can't base a whole pre-trib rapture teaching on your view of the context of the fig tree in Luke, especially when other trees are mentioned as well.

In addition there is an alternative context to "escape all these things". The way you have interpreted has a slight taste of contradiction about it, because Jesus would then be saying to His followers, follow me faithfully and you will see the signs, you will stand before kings , you will experience a great tribulation, you will anticipate my coming, but if you follow me faithfully none of this will happen to you because you will escape it all. Do you see the apparent contradiction?
If you look closely at the context, Jesus is more concerned about souls than saving bodies from persecution and tribulation:
But take heed to yourselves that your hearts not be loaded down with headaches, and drinking, and anxieties of life, and that day come suddenly upon you (35) as a snare, for it will come in on all those sitting on the face of all the earth. Isa. 24:17 (36) Then be watchful at every time, begging that you be counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man

You see? Context itself is showing that Jesus is concerned that His followers escape behaviour patterns that draw us away from Him. Drunkenness and concerns of life, these are the things to watch out for, and to escape, if we are worthy.

Rev 3:7-11 LITV [COLOR="#FF0000"]And to the angel of the assembly in Philadelphia, write: These things says the Holy One, the True One, the One having "the key of David," "the One opening, and no one shuts; and shuts, and no one opens:" Isa. 22:22 (8) I know your works. Behold, I have given a door being opened before you, and no one is able to shut it, for you have a little power and have kept My Word, and have not denied My name. (9) Behold, I give out of the synagogue of Satan those saying themselves to be Jews, and they are not, but they lie. Behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and they shall know that I loved you. (10) Because you kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial which is going to come on all the habitable world in order to try those dwelling on the earth. (11)

Once again, getting a pre-trib rapture from this text does appear likely until you delve deeper. There are a number of explantions for this verse, one of them being that the church in Philadelphia did cease to exist. Therefore they have already been kept from the hour of trial. Another explanation is that the Greek simply means "of". Thus we have to look at the meaning of the phrase "keep you". This means to take care of/protect/guard.

The Greek basically means "Of the hour of trial that is coming, I will protect you."

The post-trib rapture view extends from a general overlap of all the events of the second coming. If you believe in two second comings, by default you have to believe in two raptures. Because Paul as a pre-trib believer is looking forward to a rapture in which the dead will rise first (1 thess 4), and then tribulation believers will also have a rapture according to Matthew 24/Mark 13, in which the elect are the ones to be gathered by the angels, and the rest are left behind and not gathered because we know they are left in their place (in bed and in the fields). So the pre-trib rapture view has two comings, two gatherings by the angels, and two trumpets.

Then we get chapters like 2 Thessalonians, when the relief predicted for suffering PRE-TRIB christians occurs on the same day when the Lord is revealed with fire, and the unsaved on that day are seperated forever:
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

And also 2 Thessalonians 2, where the gathering of the PRE-TRIB saints is associated with the coming of Jesus and occurs AFTER the appearance of the antichrist:
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So if we take all the evidence into account, instead of two seperate comings of Jesus with his angels, two seperate gatherings of saints, two seperate trumpets, the bible more easily fits in with these verses all describing the same event.

(CAPS for emphasis ony )

[MaryFreeman]

The fig tree was a common symbol for Israel, because it was common in Israel. Now because of it being common in Israel, it also symbolised other things, it signalled the coming of summer. Note the verse mentions all the trees, if it was referring to all countries along with Israel this would make no sense , because how can all the countries "sprout" at the same time? Looking at the text, and the context, it just seems like Jesus was referring to the sprouting trees as an example of commonly known predictive signs that precede an event, ie summer. If we see trees sprout, this gives us confidence in the coming summer, in the same manner be sure that Jesus will be coming when we see the early warning signs. You can't base a whole pre-trib rapture teaching on your view of the context of the fig tree in Luke, especially when other trees are mentioned as well.

Look at all those trees as countries coming alive when Israel does for the purpose of coming against her.... This also was prophesied by Jesus.... This tiny nation being reborn causes all the other trees to sprout.... As you put it.... But because they are to oppose Israel.... Which they are doing now....

In addition there is an alternative context to "escape all these things". The way you have interpreted has a slight taste of contradiction about it, because Jesus would then be saying to His followers, follow me faithfully and you will see the signs, you will stand before kings , you will experience a great tribulation, you will anticipate my coming, but if you follow me faithfully none of this will happen to you because you will escape it all. Do you see the apparent contradiction?

No I don't see a contradiction.... But that is.... Of course.... Because I believe that people can come to salvation even after the Rapture.... Which is something not everyone believes.... Some pretribbers believe that once the church is raptured the Holy Spirit goes with them.... I don't believe that for the very reason you state here.... And the Revelation predicts a great soul harvest that occurs AFTER the rapture.... And since no man can come to Jesus unless the Holy Spirit draws them.... That means He doesn't leave with the Church....

If you look closely at the context, Jesus is more concerned about souls than saving bodies from persecution and tribulation:
But take heed to yourselves that your hearts not be loaded down with headaches, and drinking, and anxieties of life, and that day come suddenly upon you (35) as a snare, for it will come in on all those sitting on the face of all the earth. Isa. 24:17 (36) Then be watchful at every time, begging that you be counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man

You see? Context itself is showing that Jesus is concerned that His followers escape behaviour patterns that draw us away from Him. Drunkenness and concerns of life, these are the things to watch out for, and to escape, if we are worthy.

No sir.... That is not what we are to watch for.... We are to stay away from those things so they do not divert our attention and we be caught by surprise.... This is one way people will miss the Rapture.... They will be backslidden.... Some will believe themselves christians when they never made the Lord their savior.... All will have slipped in to one or more of these behaviors.... And then all of a sudden they find themselves in a mess....

Once again, getting a pre-trib rapture from this text does appear likely until you delve deeper. There are a number of explantions for this verse, one of them being that the church in Philadelphia did cease to exist. Therefore they have already been kept from the hour of trial. Another explanation is that the Greek simply means "of". Thus we have to look at the meaning of the phrase "keep you". This means to take care of/protect/guard.

The Greek basically means "Of the hour of trial that is coming, I will protect you."

This interpretation renders the first three chapters of Revelation a waste of time to read.... Philadelphia is not the only church mentioned.... And since all have ceased to exist we must interpret the scripture another way for it to have any meaning in our lives in this day and age.... I have studied the meaning of "keep you out of the hour of trial".... Even with your translation there has to be a way in which we are to be protected from that hour.... And if we go back to Jesus words.... And the words of Paul.... We figure out how it is going to be done.... Unless He stuffs us all in a humongous cave deep underground? Because during the tribulation Antichrist and the devil himself are given permission.... So to speak.... To run amok and to subdue the saints.... Why in the world would some be protected and some not?? That doesn't make sense unless you add the doctrine of the Rapture of the church....

The post-trib rapture view extends from a general overlap of all the events of the second coming. If you believe in two second comings, by default you have to believe in two raptures. Because Paul as a pre-trib believer is looking forward to a rapture in which the dead will rise first (1 thess 4), and then tribulation believers will also have a rapture according to Matthew 24/Mark 13, in which the elect are the ones to be gathered by the angels, and the rest are left behind and not gathered because we know they are left in their place (in bed and in the fields). So the pre-trib rapture view has two comings, two gatherings by the angels, and two trumpets.

I don't believe in two raptures neither must I by default.... I do believe in two or more resurrections.... The dead in Christ.... And then Trib saints.... The elect gathered out of beds and fields are the Church.... This is another description of the same event.... The Rapture.... It is not for trib saints because it happens before they decide to come to Christ.... If it had happened afterward.... They wouldn't be here.... If we look closely we see that the dead in Christ are resurrected and THEN raptured.... And we will meet them in the air.... We will be going up to join Christ.... His feet do not touch the ground until after the 7 year tribulation.... So you cannot even call the Rapture a coming I suppose.... Rather a fly by rescuing.... .... Of course.... Martyrs during the tribulation need to be resurrected too.... And that will happen after Jesus feet touch the ground on the mount of olives.... All those alive at that time are separated into sheep and goats.... Or good fish and bad fish if you will.... And then there is the resurrection that occurs at the GWT.... After the 1000 years all people from all ages before Christ was born resurrect.... "Some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence"....

Then we get chapters like 2 Thessalonians, when the relief predicted for suffering PRE-TRIB christians occurs on the same day when the Lord is revealed with fire, and the unsaved on that day are seperated forever:
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 1:3-9 LITV Brothers, we are bound to give thanks to God always concerning you, even as it is right, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of each one of you multiplies toward one another, (4) so as for us to boast ourselves in you in the assemblies of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions, and the afflictions which you endure, (5) a clear token of the just judgment of God, for you to be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed suffer; (6) since it is a just thing with God to pay back tribulation to the ones troubling you, (7) and to give you, those being afflicted, relief with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with angels of His power, (8) in flaming fire giving full vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, Isa. 66:15; Jer. 10:25 (9) who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His strength," Isa. 2:19[/quote]
I have bolded words that are of great importance when interpreting these scriptures.... These are people who are being troubled and being afflicted....

The ones being spoken to are the ones we would now call "the Dead in Christ".... Simply put they were suffering great persecution at the time Paul wrote to them.... They will be resurrected and then Raptured.... So what happens after they are?

Zec 14:3-5 LITV And Jehovah shall go out and fight against those nations, like the day He fought in the day of battle. (4) And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall divide from its middle, from the east even to the west, a very great valley. And half of the mountain shall move toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (5) And you shall flee to the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. And Jehovah my God shall come, and all the saints with You.

I like the ABP:

Zec 14:5 ABP+ And [shall be obstructed the valley of my mountains],and [shall be joined together the ravine] by mountains unto Azal. And it shall be obstructed in which manner it was obstructed from in front of the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And [shall come the Lord my God], and all the holy ones with him.

All of those gathered in the Rapture will come back with Christ when He comes to set up His reign on earth.... This is evident in Revelation as well....

Rev 19:11-14 LITV And I saw Heaven being opened. And, behold! A white horse, and He sitting on it having been called Faithful and True. And He judges and wars in righteousness. (12) And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head many diadems, having a name that had been written, which no one knows except Himself; (13) and having been clothed in a garment which had been dipped in blood. And His name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, being dressed in fine linen, white and pure.

And also 2 Thessalonians 2, where the gathering of the PRE-TRIB saints is associated with the coming of Jesus and occurs AFTER the appearance of the antichrist:
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So if we take all the evidence into account, instead of two seperate comings of Jesus with his angels, two seperate gatherings of saints, two seperate trumpets, the bible more easily fits in with these verses all describing the same event.

(CAPS for emphasis ony )

First.... When Jesus returns it is not with angels.... Rather it is with the Raptured Church.... The Saints.... As is shown in the verses above.... I still wonder where the trumpet idea comes from.... When Jesus returns to set up His kingdom there is not a trumpet sounded first.... Unless I wasn't reading right....

Second.... We must take into account which day Paul was speaking of.... There is the Day of the Lord.... And then there is our gathering together to Him.... Some were saying Jesus had already gathered His elect and already came back to set up His kingdom.... They were telling these saints they missed the whole thing.... Which wasn't true.... Jesus will not set foot on earth til after the tribulation.... Which happens after the church is snatched up.... Which happens just before Israel signs a peace treaty with the devil himself....

There are too many differences in the verses that describe the "second coming" for it to be anything other than two separate events.... Like I said.... When I have a bit of time I will list them and their differences....

[DurbanDude]

Look at all those trees as countries coming alive when Israel does for the purpose of coming against her.... This also was prophesied by Jesus.... This tiny nation being reborn causes all the other trees to sprout.... As you put it.... But because they are to oppose Israel.... Which they are doing now....
.

I prefer the more obvious interpretation, will just have to agree to disagree here.

No I don't see a contradiction.... But that is.... Of course.... Because I believe that people can come to salvation even after the Rapture.... Which is something not everyone believes.... Some pretribbers believe that once the church is raptured the Holy Spirit goes with them.... I don't believe that for the very reason you state here.... And the Revelation predicts a great soul harvest that occurs AFTER the rapture.... And since no man can come to Jesus unless the Holy Spirit draws them.... That means He doesn't leave with the Church....
No sir.... That is not what we are to watch for.... We are to stay away from those things so they do not divert our attention and we be caught by surprise.... This is one way people will miss the Rapture.... They will be backslidden.... Some will believe themselves christians when they never made the Lord their savior.... All will have slipped in to one or more of these behaviors.... And then all of a sudden they find themselves in a mess....

24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Are they to escape all these things, or endure to the end? Which is it? The preaching of the gospel is one of the things listed that precedes the second coming.
Jesus does refer to them as if they are the same group of people (you ..you..you..), and the very people who are instructed to look out for the signs preceding the tribulation and are told to endure to the end, are told that Jesus wont come until he is so visible that every nation mourns. I honestly do not feel the text fits your view.

I have studied the meaning of "keep you out of the hour of trial".... Even with your translation there has to be a way in which we are to be protected from that hour.... And if we go back to Jesus words.... And the words of Paul.... We figure out how it is going to be done.... Unless He stuffs us all in a humongous cave deep underground? Because during the tribulation Antichrist and the devil himself are given permission.... So to speak.... To run amok and to subdue the saints.... Why in the world would some be protected and some not?? That doesn't make sense unless you add the doctrine of the Rapture of the church....

The idea is that only the souls are protected, but not the bodies. "Keep you safe" can mean keeping safe from falling away. In this way, it does make sense, because even if the earthly body dies the soul lives forever. None of our bodies are kept safe, we all deteriate with old age, or are killed or die of disease etc (sounds terrible, but we are in an age of mortality). This period on concentration on safekeeping of the soul, with little emphasis on the body will carry on into the tribulation when the pressures are worse to backslide (martyrdom, mark of the beast etc) and therefore the protection needs to be greater and will be.

2Th 1:3-9 LITV Brothers, we are bound to give thanks to God always concerning you, even as it is right, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of each one of you multiplies toward one another, (4) so as for us to boast ourselves in you in the assemblies of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions, and the afflictions which you endure, (5) a clear token of the just judgment of God, for you to be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed suffer; (6) since it is a just thing with God to pay back tribulation to the ones troubling you, (7) and to give you, those being afflicted, relief with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with angels of His power, (8) in flaming fire giving full vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, Isa. 66:15; Jer. 10:25 (9) who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His strength," Isa. 2:19
I have bolded words that are of great importance when interpreting these scriptures.... These are people who are being troubled and being afflicted....

The ones being spoken to are the ones we would now call "the Dead in Christ".... Simply put they were suffering great persecution at the time Paul wrote to them.... They will be resurrected and then Raptured.... So what happens after they are?

I see this point, this is a possible way to look at it. The dead in Christ will get their relief and retribution at the second coming.

First.... When Jesus returns it is not with angels.... Rather it is with the Raptured Church.... The Saints.... As is shown in the verses above.... I still wonder where the trumpet idea comes from.... When Jesus returns to set up His kingdom there is not a trumpet sounded first.... Unless I wasn't reading right....

Matthew 24 mentions angels in a clear second coming (tribulation saints) context, this coming with the angels occurs after the tribulation described in Matthew 24 and so would have to involve tribulation saints . So I believe you are incorrect saying that Jesus will only bring pre-trib saints with at the second coming, He does bring angels with.

Second.... We must take into account which day Paul was speaking of.... There is the Day of the Lord.... And then there is our gathering together to Him.... Some were saying Jesus had already gathered His elect and already came back to set up His kingdom.... They were telling these saints they missed the whole thing.... Which wasn't true.... Jesus will not set foot on earth til after the tribulation.... Which happens after the church is snatched up

I believe you are not been consistent with the text here, the text specifically says "our gathering", which is referring to pre-trib saints gathering, not tribulation saints. This verse is saying that pre-trib saints will not be gathered until the antichrist is revealed first.

2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

There are too many differences in the verses that describe the "second coming" for it to be anything other than two separate events.... Like I said.... When I have a bit of time I will list them and their differences...

Looking forward to that because I do not see any mutual exclusivity between the two events. No one description of the second coming/rapture is a complete list, all descriptions can overlap nicely to describe a complete whole without contradictions.

[DurbanDude]

There are too many differences in the verses that describe the "second coming" for it to be anything other than two separate events.... Like I said.... When I have a bit of time I will list them and their differences....

Hoping you get the time soon to delve into this, like I said, I believe the differences you may see between the so-called two events are not mutually exclusive. Any so-called "rapture" event also fits neatly into the second coming, unless you approach the verse with pre-trib assumptions.

Additionally I feel you did not deal adequately with 2 Thessalonians 2, where I pointed out that its the pre-trib saints that are expected to gather only AFTER the appearance of the antichrist (Paul says "our gathering", not "their gathering").

Neither did you acknowledge my point that Matthew 24 is a post-trib description and involves the angels coming with Christ, angels also come with Christ at the rapture.
The "two events" also involve two trumpets because a trumpet is blown at the rapture (read 1 Cor 15:52 1 Thess 4:6) and a trumpet is also blown after the tribulation at the second coming (Matthew 24:31 Rev 11:15).

So we have Jesus coming down from heaven into the clouds twice, the saints being gathered together twice leaving behind the unsaved on earth, the angels coming with Jesus twice, and two trumpet blasts. Sounds like one event to me.

[MyCoolUsername]

Interesting, your "rapture" theory has Christ returning twice. That kinda makes it a third coming, now doesn't it?

I like you.
We are going to get along well.

[billy-brown 2]

I think I put this in the right spot....

Can't think of a better place to put it....

I have an issue with the term "Second coming".... Or "Second Advent" if you'd rather....

I search and search all through my bible and simply cannot find the term anywhere....

And besides that.... Christ came to earth and spoke to quite a few OT people.... Though they didn't know who He was.... Called Him the Angel of the Lord....

And besides that.... People use this unbiblical term to say that Jesus will only come back one time.... They use it to discredit the Rapture of the church.... Jesus couldn't possibly come back more than once or it wouldn't be called the second coming right? But the bible never says He will only come back once.... Never....

Do a word search.... You won't find that term....

Ok so that is more than one issue....

But still.... Could someone explain why Jesus is being put in a box that limits His return to just one showing?

Makes about as much sense as "sinner saved by grace"

Mary,

The parable below indicates that Jesus will have angels assist Him in gathering all at the end of the age.

And the parable indicates that there are only two kinds of "fish"--good and bad; the "fish" in that parable represents ALL PEOPLE separated into righteous and wicked.

Matt. 13
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Now, how many times will all of this happen?