The "Second Advent".....

[quiet dove]

How many times did Jesus come to speak to Paul after Paul's visitation on the road to Damascus?

Thats true...Imho, it is incorrect to define an "appearance" if you will, of Jesus as a "coming" as in First, Second "Coming/Advent". I like Advent better because it seems more definable. In other words...most don't consider the Rapture an "Advent".

So we must fully define the terminology of First Coming or Second Coming, not as being a simple appearance of Jesus, but appearances with a specific purpose. So First Advent/Coming is then only defined as His incarnation, life, death, and resurrection. His Second Advent/Coming, as His returning to earth for yet another specific prophesied-declared-well defined/described purpose....Which is not the Rapture...the Rapture does not fit the description, prophecies, the declared purpose of His Second Advent/Coming.

The purpose of the Rapture is the removal of His Bride....the purpose of His Second Advent is His revealing in all Glory, all men will bow...and He will take possession of all He paid for and redeemed...all that is already rightfully His.

Jesus has and may "appear" many many times...who knows how many times...But First and Second Advent/Coming, are not any "appearance(s)" but appearances that are very specific... order to be qualified as His First Advent, or Second Advent, the appearance must fulfill(or have fulfilled as His First Advent did) the prophecies God has given us.

Imho..

[John146]

My point is, for the sake of argument, premil is incorrect. This would mean that you would still be wrong no matter what position you held to. I mean in the eyes of non premils. What's interesting about premil is this. You have several choices to choose from...pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib. Non premils have no choices to choose from.

That is not true. There are various views within amil just as there are within premil. Not all amils are partial-preterists. Just as is the case with premils some amils are futurists, some are historicists and some are idealists or some combination of those.

They're all post-trib by default.

But not all amils are post-trib in the normal way that you think of the post-trib rapture view. Partial preterists generally don't believe in a future tribulation preceding the second coming, so while they do believe in a future second coming they don't see it as following a period of tribulation necessarily.

Which gets me to thinking. Which is more logical? A position that has several conclusions to choose from? Or a position that only has one conclusion to choose from?

Neither, necessarily. Both premil and amil have various views within those broad labels.

But on the flip side of that, all premils agree when the 1000 years begins..it's at the coming recorded in Rev 19. But not all non premils agree when the beginning of the 1000 years is..IOW, it's a multiple choice question.

Earlier, you seemed to indicate that more choices was better, but now it's worse? The number of choices or variations within premil or amil means nothing.

So which is more logical, a position that has only one conclusion to come to, or a position where the conclusion is a based on multiple choice?

Neither. This is not the way to determine the truth of the matter. What you are saying in this post has no bearing at all on whether premil or amil is true.

[MaryFreeman]

The fig tree was a common symbol for Israel, because it was common in Israel. Now because of it being common in Israel, it also symbolised other things, it signalled the coming of summer. Note the verse mentions all the trees, if it was referring to all countries along with Israel this would make no sense , because how can all the countries "sprout" at the same time? Looking at the text, and the context, it just seems like Jesus was referring to the sprouting trees as an example of commonly known predictive signs that precede an event, ie summer. If we see trees sprout, this gives us confidence in the coming summer, in the same manner be sure that Jesus will be coming when we see the early warning signs. You can't base a whole pre-trib rapture teaching on your view of the context of the fig tree in Luke, especially when other trees are mentioned as well.

Look at all those trees as countries coming alive when Israel does for the purpose of coming against her.... This also was prophesied by Jesus.... This tiny nation being reborn causes all the other trees to sprout.... As you put it.... But because they are to oppose Israel.... Which they are doing now....

In addition there is an alternative context to "escape all these things". The way you have interpreted has a slight taste of contradiction about it, because Jesus would then be saying to His followers, follow me faithfully and you will see the signs, you will stand before kings , you will experience a great tribulation, you will anticipate my coming, but if you follow me faithfully none of this will happen to you because you will escape it all. Do you see the apparent contradiction?

No I don't see a contradiction.... But that is.... Of course.... Because I believe that people can come to salvation even after the Rapture.... Which is something not everyone believes.... Some pretribbers believe that once the church is raptured the Holy Spirit goes with them.... I don't believe that for the very reason you state here.... And the Revelation predicts a great soul harvest that occurs AFTER the rapture.... And since no man can come to Jesus unless the Holy Spirit draws them.... That means He doesn't leave with the Church....

If you look closely at the context, Jesus is more concerned about souls than saving bodies from persecution and tribulation:
But take heed to yourselves that your hearts not be loaded down with headaches, and drinking, and anxieties of life, and that day come suddenly upon you (35) as a snare, for it will come in on all those sitting on the face of all the earth. Isa. 24:17 (36) Then be watchful at every time, begging that you be counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man

You see? Context itself is showing that Jesus is concerned that His followers escape behaviour patterns that draw us away from Him. Drunkenness and concerns of life, these are the things to watch out for, and to escape, if we are worthy.

No sir.... That is not what we are to watch for.... We are to stay away from those things so they do not divert our attention and we be caught by surprise.... This is one way people will miss the Rapture.... They will be backslidden.... Some will believe themselves christians when they never made the Lord their savior.... All will have slipped in to one or more of these behaviors.... And then all of a sudden they find themselves in a mess....

Once again, getting a pre-trib rapture from this text does appear likely until you delve deeper. There are a number of explantions for this verse, one of them being that the church in Philadelphia did cease to exist. Therefore they have already been kept from the hour of trial. Another explanation is that the Greek simply means "of". Thus we have to look at the meaning of the phrase "keep you". This means to take care of/protect/guard.

The Greek basically means "Of the hour of trial that is coming, I will protect you."

This interpretation renders the first three chapters of Revelation a waste of time to read.... Philadelphia is not the only church mentioned.... And since all have ceased to exist we must interpret the scripture another way for it to have any meaning in our lives in this day and age.... I have studied the meaning of "keep you out of the hour of trial".... Even with your translation there has to be a way in which we are to be protected from that hour.... And if we go back to Jesus words.... And the words of Paul.... We figure out how it is going to be done.... Unless He stuffs us all in a humongous cave deep underground? Because during the tribulation Antichrist and the devil himself are given permission.... So to speak.... To run amok and to subdue the saints.... Why in the world would some be protected and some not?? That doesn't make sense unless you add the doctrine of the Rapture of the church....

The post-trib rapture view extends from a general overlap of all the events of the second coming. If you believe in two second comings, by default you have to believe in two raptures. Because Paul as a pre-trib believer is looking forward to a rapture in which the dead will rise first (1 thess 4), and then tribulation believers will also have a rapture according to Matthew 24/Mark 13, in which the elect are the ones to be gathered by the angels, and the rest are left behind and not gathered because we know they are left in their place (in bed and in the fields). So the pre-trib rapture view has two comings, two gatherings by the angels, and two trumpets.

I don't believe in two raptures neither must I by default.... I do believe in two or more resurrections.... The dead in Christ.... And then Trib saints.... The elect gathered out of beds and fields are the Church.... This is another description of the same event.... The Rapture.... It is not for trib saints because it happens before they decide to come to Christ.... If it had happened afterward.... They wouldn't be here.... If we look closely we see that the dead in Christ are resurrected and THEN raptured.... And we will meet them in the air.... We will be going up to join Christ.... His feet do not touch the ground until after the 7 year tribulation.... So you cannot even call the Rapture a coming I suppose.... Rather a fly by rescuing.... .... Of course.... Martyrs during the tribulation need to be resurrected too.... And that will happen after Jesus feet touch the ground on the mount of olives.... All those alive at that time are separated into sheep and goats.... Or good fish and bad fish if you will.... And then there is the resurrection that occurs at the GWT.... After the 1000 years all people from all ages before Christ was born resurrect.... "Some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence"....

Then we get chapters like 2 Thessalonians, when the relief predicted for suffering PRE-TRIB christians occurs on the same day when the Lord is revealed with fire, and the unsaved on that day are seperated forever:
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 1:3-9 LITV Brothers, we are bound to give thanks to God always concerning you, even as it is right, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of each one of you multiplies toward one another, (4) so as for us to boast ourselves in you in the assemblies of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions, and the afflictions which you endure, (5) a clear token of the just judgment of God, for you to be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed suffer; (6) since it is a just thing with God to pay back tribulation to the ones troubling you, (7) and to give you, those being afflicted, relief with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with angels of His power, (8) in flaming fire giving full vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, Isa. 66:15; Jer. 10:25 (9) who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His strength," Isa. 2:19[/quote]
I have bolded words that are of great importance when interpreting these scriptures.... These are people who are being troubled and being afflicted....

The ones being spoken to are the ones we would now call "the Dead in Christ".... Simply put they were suffering great persecution at the time Paul wrote to them.... They will be resurrected and then Raptured.... So what happens after they are?

Zec 14:3-5 LITV And Jehovah shall go out and fight against those nations, like the day He fought in the day of battle. (4) And His feet shall stand in that day on the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives shall divide from its middle, from the east even to the west, a very great valley. And half of the mountain shall move toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (5) And you shall flee to the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. And Jehovah my God shall come, and all the saints with You.

I like the ABP:

Zec 14:5 ABP+ And [shall be obstructed the valley of my mountains],and [shall be joined together the ravine] by mountains unto Azal. And it shall be obstructed in which manner it was obstructed from in front of the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. And [shall come the Lord my God], and all the holy ones with him.

All of those gathered in the Rapture will come back with Christ when He comes to set up His reign on earth.... This is evident in Revelation as well....

Rev 19:11-14 LITV And I saw Heaven being opened. And, behold! A white horse, and He sitting on it having been called Faithful and True. And He judges and wars in righteousness. (12) And His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head many diadems, having a name that had been written, which no one knows except Himself; (13) and having been clothed in a garment which had been dipped in blood. And His name is called The Word of God. (14) And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, being dressed in fine linen, white and pure.

And also 2 Thessalonians 2, where the gathering of the PRE-TRIB saints is associated with the coming of Jesus and occurs AFTER the appearance of the antichrist:
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So if we take all the evidence into account, instead of two seperate comings of Jesus with his angels, two seperate gatherings of saints, two seperate trumpets, the bible more easily fits in with these verses all describing the same event.

(CAPS for emphasis ony )

First.... When Jesus returns it is not with angels.... Rather it is with the Raptured Church.... The Saints.... As is shown in the verses above.... I still wonder where the trumpet idea comes from.... When Jesus returns to set up His kingdom there is not a trumpet sounded first.... Unless I wasn't reading right....

Second.... We must take into account which day Paul was speaking of.... There is the Day of the Lord.... And then there is our gathering together to Him.... Some were saying Jesus had already gathered His elect and already came back to set up His kingdom.... They were telling these saints they missed the whole thing.... Which wasn't true.... Jesus will not set foot on earth til after the tribulation.... Which happens after the church is snatched up.... Which happens just before Israel signs a peace treaty with the devil himself....

There are too many differences in the verses that describe the "second coming" for it to be anything other than two separate events.... Like I said.... When I have a bit of time I will list them and their differences....

[John146]

Thats true...Imho, it is incorrect to define an "appearance" if you will, of Jesus as a "coming" as in First, Second "Coming/Advent". I like Advent better because it seems more definable. In other words...most don't consider the Rapture an "Advent".

So we must fully define the terminology of First Coming or Second Coming, not as being a simple appearance of Jesus, but appearances with a specific purpose. So First Advent/Coming is then only defined as His incarnation, life, death, and resurrection. His Second Advent/Coming, as His returning to earth for yet another specific prophesied-declared-well defined/described purpose....Which is not the Rapture...the Rapture does not fit the description, prophecies, the declared purpose of His Second Advent/Coming.

The purpose of the Rapture is the removal of His Bride....the purpose of His Second Advent is His revealing in all Glory, all men will bow...and He will take possession of all He paid for and redeemed...all that is already rightfully His.

Jesus has and may "appear" many many times...who knows how many times...But First and Second Advent/Coming, are not any "appearance(s)" but appearances that are very specific... order to be qualified as His First Advent, or Second Advent, the appearance must fulfill(or have fulfilled as His First Advent did) the prophecies God has given us.

Imho..

What you're referring to here as an appearance of Christ would be what is called His parousia, which is the Greek word translated as "coming" in verses like Matt 24:27 and 1 Thess 4:15. So, my question for you then is do you see any difference between His parousia in Matt 24:27 and His parousia in 1 Thess 4:15?

[DurbanDude]

Look at all those trees as countries coming alive when Israel does for the purpose of coming against her.... This also was prophesied by Jesus.... This tiny nation being reborn causes all the other trees to sprout.... As you put it.... But because they are to oppose Israel.... Which they are doing now....
.

I prefer the more obvious interpretation, will just have to agree to disagree here.

No I don't see a contradiction.... But that is.... Of course.... Because I believe that people can come to salvation even after the Rapture.... Which is something not everyone believes.... Some pretribbers believe that once the church is raptured the Holy Spirit goes with them.... I don't believe that for the very reason you state here.... And the Revelation predicts a great soul harvest that occurs AFTER the rapture.... And since no man can come to Jesus unless the Holy Spirit draws them.... That means He doesn't leave with the Church....
No sir.... That is not what we are to watch for.... We are to stay away from those things so they do not divert our attention and we be caught by surprise.... This is one way people will miss the Rapture.... They will be backslidden.... Some will believe themselves christians when they never made the Lord their savior.... All will have slipped in to one or more of these behaviors.... And then all of a sudden they find themselves in a mess....

24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Are they to escape all these things, or endure to the end? Which is it? The preaching of the gospel is one of the things listed that precedes the second coming.
Jesus does refer to them as if they are the same group of people (you ..you..you..), and the very people who are instructed to look out for the signs preceding the tribulation and are told to endure to the end, are told that Jesus wont come until he is so visible that every nation mourns. I honestly do not feel the text fits your view.

I have studied the meaning of "keep you out of the hour of trial".... Even with your translation there has to be a way in which we are to be protected from that hour.... And if we go back to Jesus words.... And the words of Paul.... We figure out how it is going to be done.... Unless He stuffs us all in a humongous cave deep underground? Because during the tribulation Antichrist and the devil himself are given permission.... So to speak.... To run amok and to subdue the saints.... Why in the world would some be protected and some not?? That doesn't make sense unless you add the doctrine of the Rapture of the church....

The idea is that only the souls are protected, but not the bodies. "Keep you safe" can mean keeping safe from falling away. In this way, it does make sense, because even if the earthly body dies the soul lives forever. None of our bodies are kept safe, we all deteriate with old age, or are killed or die of disease etc (sounds terrible, but we are in an age of mortality). This period on concentration on safekeeping of the soul, with little emphasis on the body will carry on into the tribulation when the pressures are worse to backslide (martyrdom, mark of the beast etc) and therefore the protection needs to be greater and will be.

2Th 1:3-9 LITV Brothers, we are bound to give thanks to God always concerning you, even as it is right, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of each one of you multiplies toward one another, (4) so as for us to boast ourselves in you in the assemblies of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions, and the afflictions which you endure, (5) a clear token of the just judgment of God, for you to be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed suffer; (6) since it is a just thing with God to pay back tribulation to the ones troubling you, (7) and to give you, those being afflicted, relief with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with angels of His power, (8) in flaming fire giving full vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, Isa. 66:15; Jer. 10:25 (9) who will pay the penalty: everlasting destruction from the face of the Lord, "and from the glory of His strength," Isa. 2:19
I have bolded words that are of great importance when interpreting these scriptures.... These are people who are being troubled and being afflicted....

The ones being spoken to are the ones we would now call "the Dead in Christ".... Simply put they were suffering great persecution at the time Paul wrote to them.... They will be resurrected and then Raptured.... So what happens after they are?

I see this point, this is a possible way to look at it. The dead in Christ will get their relief and retribution at the second coming.

First.... When Jesus returns it is not with angels.... Rather it is with the Raptured Church.... The Saints.... As is shown in the verses above.... I still wonder where the trumpet idea comes from.... When Jesus returns to set up His kingdom there is not a trumpet sounded first.... Unless I wasn't reading right....

Matthew 24 mentions angels in a clear second coming (tribulation saints) context, this coming with the angels occurs after the tribulation described in Matthew 24 and so would have to involve tribulation saints . So I believe you are incorrect saying that Jesus will only bring pre-trib saints with at the second coming, He does bring angels with.

Second.... We must take into account which day Paul was speaking of.... There is the Day of the Lord.... And then there is our gathering together to Him.... Some were saying Jesus had already gathered His elect and already came back to set up His kingdom.... They were telling these saints they missed the whole thing.... Which wasn't true.... Jesus will not set foot on earth til after the tribulation.... Which happens after the church is snatched up

I believe you are not been consistent with the text here, the text specifically says "our gathering", which is referring to pre-trib saints gathering, not tribulation saints. This verse is saying that pre-trib saints will not be gathered until the antichrist is revealed first.

2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

There are too many differences in the verses that describe the "second coming" for it to be anything other than two separate events.... Like I said.... When I have a bit of time I will list them and their differences...

Looking forward to that because I do not see any mutual exclusivity between the two events. No one description of the second coming/rapture is a complete list, all descriptions can overlap nicely to describe a complete whole without contradictions.

[quiet dove]

What you're referring to here as an appearance of Christ would be what is called His parousia, which is the Greek word translated as "coming" in verses like Matt 24:27 and 1 Thess 4:15. So, my question for you then is do you see any difference between His parousia in Matt 24:27 and His parousia in 1 Thess 4:15?

Yes, you know I do...lol

And it does not change what I said...the word parousia does not describe the context but is described by the context and the context being the purpose of His "the" coming.....or in the case of Thess, His descending....

[John146]

Yes, you know I do...lol

How would I know that? I don't think I've ever asked you that particular question before.

And it does not change what I said...the word parousia does not describe the context but is described by the context and the context being the purpose of His "the" coming.....or in the case of Thess, His descending....

The reason I asked you whether you believe His parousia mentioned in Matt 24:27 is the same as His parousia mentioned in 1 Thess 4:15 is because Matt 24:27-31 makes it clear that His parousia and the gathering of His people will occur "after the tribulation of those days". So, I wonder how you can conclude that His parousia is instead before "the tribulation of those days"? I don't see how you can possibly conclude that Matt 24:27 is referring to a pre-trib appearing of Christ when the verses that follow make it clear that it has to do with a post-trib appearing of Christ.

[MaryFreeman]

The reason I asked you whether you believe His parousia mentioned in Matt 24:27 is the same as His parousia mentioned in 1 Thess 4:15 is because Matt 24:27-31 makes it clear that His parousia and the gathering of His people will occur "after the tribulation of those days". So, I wonder how you can conclude that His parousia is instead before "the tribulation of those days"? I don't see how you can possibly conclude that Matt 24:27 is referring to a pre-trib appearing of Christ when the verses that follow make it clear that it has to do with a post-trib appearing of Christ.

Because she sees clear evidence that He is speaking of BOTH events....

SHOCK AND AWE!

[quiet dove]

How would I know that? I don't think I've ever asked you that particular question before.

I just figured ya did, I guess from our conversations...no biggie, I was mostly playing...

The reason I asked you whether you believe His parousia mentioned in Matt 24:27 is the same as His parousia mentioned in 1 Thess 4:15 is because Matt 24:27-31 makes it clear that His parousia and the gathering of His people will occur "after the tribulation of those days". So, I wonder how you can conclude that His parousia is instead before "the tribulation of those days"? I don't see how you can possibly conclude that Matt 24:27 is referring to a pre-trib appearing of Christ when the verses that follow make it clear that it has to do with a post-trib appearing of Christ.

And I don't see how the descriptions of His parousia in Thess and the description in Matthew can be seen as describing the same event. One has Him coming on the clouds, see by all men, thunder lightening, war, His angels gathering men up, and His separating the righteous from the unrighteous...the other one has Him descending in the clouds, only His own meeting Him in the air--and thats it. There is a clear difference in the two events...there is no gathering by angels in the latter(Thess/Corin). In the full context, which is not limited to parousia...there is harpazo which is a snatching away of....not a gathering by angels of...

We can tell the first parousia, from the second parousia by the prophecies fulfilled...just like, for me, the rapture parousia of Christ, and the Second Parousia of Christ are not the same event....


There fore as I said...all the rest describes His parousia...not His parousia describing all the rest. The verses do make it clear that His Second Advent is post trib...I agree, but that has nothing to do with the Rapture which is described differently, other than the word "parousia", than His Second Advent. So I disagree, the verses do not make it clear that there is a rapture after the GT like they do with His Second Advent...His revealing to all men in all His glorly.

[John146]

And I don't see how the descriptions of His parousia in Thess and the description in Matthew can be seen as describing the same event. One has Him coming on the clouds, see by all men, thunder lightening, war, His angels gathering men up, and His separating the righteous from the unrighteous...the other one has Him descending in the clouds, only His own meeting Him in the air--and thats it. There is a clear difference in the two events...there is no gathering by angels in the latter(Thess/Corin). In the full context, which is not limited to parousia...there is harpazo which is a snatching away of....not a gathering by angels of...

Using this kind of logic we could conclude that Matt 24:29-31 is not the same event as Rev 19:11-21 because the Rev 19 passage doesn't specifically mention Him coming in the clouds or the gathering of the elect. That kind of logic doesn't work and should not be used when interpreting scripture. How could we ever relate any two passages together as speaking of the same event with that kind of logic unless two passages shared all of the exact same details? There is nothing within 1 Thess 4:14-17 that contradicts anything within Matt 24:27-31. They simply don't have all the same details regarding the one future parousia of Christ. There is no basis for concluding that there will be two future parousias of Christ.

Again, there are no contradictions between 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matt 24:27-31 but there are a few similarities, which are:

1. Christ descending from heaven and coming in the clouds
2. The sounding of a trumpet
3. Christ's people being gathered

Those two passages share at least as much in common as Matt 24:27-31 and Rev 19:11-21 so why is it that you are able to discern that Matt 24:27-31 and Rev 19:11-21 are the same event but not that 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matt 24:27-31 are the same event?

We can tell the first parousia, from the second parousia by the prophecies fulfilled...just like, for me, the rapture parousia of Christ, and the Second Parousia of Christ are not the same event....

Except that scripture does not teach two future parousias of Christ so your point here is invalid.

There fore as I said...all the rest describes His parousia...not His parousia describing all the rest. The verses do make it clear that His Second Advent is post trib...I agree, but that has nothing to do with the Rapture which is described differently, other than the word "parousia", than His Second Advent.

No, His parousia is directly linked to His Second Advent in Matt 24:27-31. How do you get around that? By somehow concluding that there will be two future parousias of Christ. No, scripture only teaches one.

[quiet dove]

Using this kind of logic we could conclude that Matt 24:29-31 is not the same event as Rev 19:11-21 because the Rev 19 passage doesn't specifically mention Him coming in the clouds or the gathering of the elect. That kind of logic doesn't work and should not be used when interpreting scripture. How could we ever relate any two passages together as speaking of the same event with that kind of logic unless two passages shared all of the exact same details? There is nothing within 1 Thess 4:14-17 that contradicts anything within Matt 24:27-31. They simply don't have all the same details regarding the one future parousia of Christ. There is no basis for concluding that there will be two future parousias of Christ.

It is not a matter of not mentioning something, it is a matter of mentioning something. Matt mentions the separation of the righteous, Thess mentions the righteous meeting Christ in the air....and Revelation mentions the righteous coming with Christ. So no, the logic is not off and the word coming does not define that the events are or are not the same....

Again, there are no contradictions between 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matt 24:27-31 but there are a few similarities, which are:

1. Christ descending from heaven and coming in the clouds
2. The sounding of a trumpet
3. Christ's people being gathered

Thess: He descends to the air/clouds/ Matt: He is coming to the earth
Thess: does not say He is coming in the clouds, says the snatched Church meets Him in the clouds-air / Matt: men on earth watch the His visible coming to the earth
Thess: the Church, dead and alive in Him,meet Him in the air together / Matt: all men, including believers watch His return, but none are snatched to meet Him as He returns
Thess: the trumpet signals believers who are snatched to Christ / Matt: the trumpet signals angels to gather men after He has returned
Rev: Bride returns with Christ / Matt: believers and unbelievers separated after His return

Those two passages share at least as much in common as Matt 24:27-31 and Rev 19:11-21 so why is it that you are able to discern that Matt 24:27-31 and Rev 19:11-21 are the same event but not that 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matt 24:27-31 are the same event?

They(Matt and Thess)have much more ...not in common, thus not the same event.

Matt and Rev do not present problems when considered the same event, nor does Rev and Thess run into problems when considered separate events. Rev and Thess support their not being the same event. As I have said over and over...saints cannot come with Christ and be separated after He is on the earth, and the dead and living in Christ meet Him together all at the same time. The dead coming with Him and the living watching Him come doesn't work for me because they both, together, meet Him in the air. Not one being commanded and snatched to Him by the sound of a trumpet and the other being gathered by angels who have been signaled to gather by a trumpet, then separated by Christ.

Except that scripture does not teach two future parousias of Christ so your point here is invalid.

No, His parousia is directly linked to His Second Advent in Matt 24:27-31. How do you get around that? By somehow concluding that there will be two future parousias of Christ. No, scripture only teaches one.

My point is very valid....I never said His parousia wasn't linked to His Second Advent, I said that the word parousia, , does not define what is meant by the rest of the context, the rest of the context defines what is meant by parousia. And I also said I agree, there is only one Second Advent...and the Rapture, not being a "coming is not then meaning more than one Second Coming. In order for His coming to be His return to the earth, He must come to the earth, and He does not do so with the rapture...with the rapture, He is not coming, the Church is going.

The Church cannot go to Him, and come with Him, watch Him come and then be separated after His return...all at the same time.

[John146]

It is not a matter of not mentioning something, it is a matter of mentioning something. Matt mentions the separation of the righteous, Thess mentions the righteous meeting Christ in the air....and Revelation mentions the righteous coming with Christ. So no, the logic is not off and the word coming does not define that the events are or are not the same....

Based on this response I think you must have completely missed my point. Are you not concluding that the two passages are different just because they contain different details? That's how it seems to me. But that's no basis for concluding that two passages are speaking of different events.

By the way, Paul mentions the righteous coming with Christ as well:

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This is speaking, of course, of the time of the rapture and speaks of the righteous dead in Christ coming with Christ, so why couldn't that be what Rev 19 is speaking about as well?

[COLOR=#000080]Thess: He descends to the air/clouds/ Matt: He is coming to the earth

Two questions. First, where does 1 Thess 4:14-17 say He does not continue down to the earth and second, where does Matt 24 say anything about Him coming down to the earth? You are making a lot of assumptions here. The fact is that neither of those passages say anything specifically about where He will go after descending from heaven and after His own are gathered to Him.

Thess: does not say He is coming in the clouds, says the snatched Church meets Him in the clouds-air

What's the difference? You are trying to create contradictions between the two passages that just aren't there.

/ Matt: men on earth watch the His visible coming to the earth
Thess: the Church, dead and alive in Him,meet Him in the air together

Where does 1 Thess 4 say that no one on earth can see Him? It doesn't say one way or another in that passage whether people on earth can see Him so what is your basis for trying to say it contradicts Matt 24?

Matt: all men, including believers watch His return, but none are snatched to meet Him as He returns

Where are you coming up with this stuff? Where does Matt 24 say hat "none are snatched to meet Him as He returns"? It doesn't. Just because it doesn't specifically mention where the elect are gathered to doesn't mean it can't be talking about them being gathered to Christ in the air. Can we not relate Matt 24:29-31 to Rev 19:11-21 because Rev 19 doesn't mention the gathering of the elect? Can't you see that this kind of argument (argument from silence) is not valid?

Thess: the trumpet signals believers who are snatched to Christ / Matt: the trumpet signals angels to gather men after He has returned
Rev: Bride returns with Christ / Matt: believers and unbelievers separated after His return

There are no contradictions here, just different details of that event. There is nothing in these passages that would suggest they must be speaking of different events.

[COLOR=#000080]They(Matt and Thess)have much more ...not in common, thus not the same event.

Everything that you say they don't have in common is all speculation on your part. You won't find anything in 1 Thess 4:14-17 that is directly contradicted in Matt 24-25 and vice versa. One passage contains different and more details than the other but that does not mean they are speaking of different events. That would be like saying Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are speaking of four different gospels since they all contain different details and different amounts of detail.

Matt and Rev do not present problems when considered the same event,

Neither do 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matt 24:27-31.

nor does Rev and Thess run into problems when considered separate events.

Yes, they do. It leads to the erroneous conclusion that there will be two future parousias of Christ and two future gatherings of believers, which is never taught in scripture.

Rev and Thess support their not being the same event. As I have said over and over...saints cannot come with Christ and be separated after He is on the earth, and the dead and living in Christ meet Him together all at the same time. The dead coming with Him and the living watching Him come doesn't work for me because they both, together, meet Him in the air. Not one being commanded and snatched to Him by the sound of a trumpet and the other being gathered by angels who have been signaled to gather by a trumpet, then separated by Christ.

Sorry, but none of what you said here makes any sense to me. Do you not believe that the spirits of the dead in Christ are in heaven with Him right now and will descend from heaven with Him at His return and be united with their resurrected bodies?

My point is very valid....I never said His parousia wasn't linked to His Second Advent, I said that the word parousia, , does not define what is meant by the rest of the context, the rest of the context defines what is meant by parousia. And I also said I agree, there is only one Second Advent...and the Rapture, not being a "coming is not then meaning more than one Second Coming. In order for His coming to be His return to the earth, He must come to the earth, and He does not do so with the rapture...with the rapture, He is not coming, the Church is going.

How are you coming to that conclusion? The fact is that 1 Thess 4:14-17 does not say where He and the church go after we meet Him in the air. Wherever they go from there will be where the judgment will take place (Matt 25:31-46).

The Church cannot go to Him, and come with Him, watch Him come and then be separated after His return...all at the same time.

Unless you believe in soul sleep, which I'm pretty sure you don't, I don't see why you would have trouble with that scenario. Again, do you not believe that the spirits of the dead in Christ are in heaven with Him right now and will descend from heaven with Him at His return and be united with their resurrected bodies?

[quiet dove]

Based on this response I think you must have completely missed my point. Are you not concluding that the two passages are different just because they contain different details? That's how it seems to me. But that's no basis for concluding that two passages are speaking of different events.

By the way, Paul mentions the righteous coming with Christ as well:

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

This is speaking, of course, of the time of the rapture and speaks of the righteous dead in Christ coming with Christ, so why couldn't that be what Rev 19 is speaking about as well?

Ok, Paul mentions the righteous coming with Christ...and so does Revelation 19, thus, after the Bride has been previously raptured She is able to then return with Him when He returns...also known as the Second Advent...not the rapture.

So does the Church come with Him, or does the Church watch Him coming? Does She meet Him in the air, or does She get gathered by angels, and then separated from the goats which happens after He has returned to earth... Is She summoned to Him in the air or is She gathered by angels on the earth.

The righteous dead in Christ meet Him in the air TOGETHER with the alive in Christ...so again, how do the dead come with Him and the alive in Him do not...they meet Him TOGETHER in the air...not the dead coming with Him and the alive later joining in...they are both summoned and meet Him TOGETHER. That is why Revelation 19 is not speaking about anything to do with the Rapture, but is speaking of the Second Advent.

Two questions. First, where does 1 Thess 4:14-17 say He does not continue down to the earth and second, where does Matt 24 say anything about Him coming down to the earth? You are making a lot of assumptions here. The fact is that neither of those passages say anything specifically about where He will go after descending from heaven and after His own are gathered to Him.

What's the difference? You are trying to create contradictions between the two passages that just aren't there.

Thess 4 says His Bride meets Him in the air...that is why it says He does not continue to earth. She cannot meet Him in the air, and be on earth watching His return...be gathered by angels...be on earth to be separated from the goats...She meets Him in the air...all of her, not just the dead of her. It does not say the dead meet Him, it says they ...TOGETHER.... meet Him in the air

Where does 1 Thess 4 say that no one on earth can see Him? It doesn't say one way or another in that passage whether people on earth can see Him so what is your basis for trying to say it contradicts Matt 24?

I didn't say it contradicted Matthew 24...I said your interpretation causes contradictions because the Bride cannot be in the air coming with Him and watching Him come at the same time.

Where are you coming up with this stuff? Where does Matt 24 say hat "none are snatched to meet Him as He returns"? It doesn't. Just because it doesn't specifically mention where the elect are gathered to doesn't mean it can't be talking about them being gathered to Christ in the air. Can we not relate Matt 24:29-31 to Rev 19:11-21 because Rev 19 doesn't mention the gathering of the elect? Can't you see that this kind of argument (argument from silence) is not valid?

Where do I come up with this stuff....accurate interpretation I suppose.

It does say where they are gathered. It says they are gathered before Christ who separates the sheep and goats after they have been gathered by angels. He returns on the earth, Mt Olives, where prophecy says Christ will return and touch the earth(Zech 14:4)
I am not saying there is any argument of silence in Revelation 19...Revelation 19 clearly says that the Bride is returning with Christ as He makes His Second Advent...not meeting Him in the air as He makes His Second Advent nor watching Him from the earth as He makes His Second Advent, but returning with Him. John sees heaven open up...where he sees Jesus leaving heaven followed by the Bride, (vv11, 14) The armies of heaven are none other than the Bride(v8)leaving heaven with Christ(v14)

There are no contradictions here, just different details of that event. There is nothing in these passages that would suggest they must be speaking of different events.

I never said there was contradictions in the scripture...and there is less there suggesting they are the same event than suggesting they are the same event.

Everything that you say they don't have in common is all speculation on your part. You won't find anything in 1 Thess 4:14-17 that is directly contradicted in Matt 24-25 and vice versa. One passage contains different and more details than the other but that does not mean they are speaking of different events. That would be like saying Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are speaking of four different gospels since they all contain different details and different amounts of detail.

No it isn't speculation at all...and no it is not like saying Matthew, Mark, Luke and John would be speaking of different Gospels, that comparison or explanation, or whatever it is, is nothing to do with this or an argument. It isn't a matter of different details of the same event such as are with the many many passages that speak of the Second Advent and the Millennial Kingdom. It is a matter of the details describing different events. And I think it safe to say that the different details regarding the Gospels still all describe the same Jesus and the same Gospel....I can't believe you even tried to use that as an argument.

Neither do 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matt 24:27-31.

Yes, Thess does...because you have yet to give a solid explanation as to how the Bride watches Him return, then is gathered by angels, then is separated from the goats...but yet....meets Him in the air, and returns with Him. You can't use the argument that it is the dead in Christ returning with Him because Thess clearly says that the dead and alive meet Him TOGETHER in the air

Yes, they do. It leads to the erroneous conclusion that there will be two future parousias of Christ and two future gatherings of believers, which is never taught in scripture.

Then explain how the Bride watches Him return and returns with Him
You are not grasping that coming does not define the entire purpose....it takes more than the word coming or parousia to mean Second Advent.

Sorry, but none of what you said here makes any sense to me. Do you not believe that the spirits of the dead in Christ are in heaven with Him right now and will descend from heaven with Him at His return and be united with their resurrected bodies?

What I said not making sense to you does not equate to me being wrong...lol
I believe what Thessalonians and Corinthians both tell us...the dead are resurrected and the living changed, and both TOGETHER, meet Him in the air. And both then, per Revelation 19 return wit Him.

How are you coming to that conclusion? The fact is that 1 Thess 4:14-17 does not say where He and the church go after we meet Him in the air. Wherever they go from there will be where the judgment will take place (Matt 25:31-46).

It is very simple, just because the word coming, or parousia is used does not in and of itself equate to Second Advent, though the Second Advent is definitely a parousia of Christ.

Since the dead in Christ and the living in Christ meet Him TOETHER, they would both be with Him in their resurrected/changed state. The dead being summonded just a moment before the living, both in the twinkling of an eye, to their new immortal, incorruptible bodies. Where ever Jesus is, His Bride will be with Him.

Unless you believe in soul sleep, which I'm pretty sure you don't, I don't see why you would have trouble with that scenario. Again, do you not believe that the spirits of the dead in Christ are in heaven with Him right now and will descend from heaven with Him at His return and be united with their resurrected bodies?

Don't go down the soul sleep nonsense again, ....how you can possibly gather that anything I have said indicates I don't believe the spirits of the dead in Christ are with Him? If you can't understand me any better than that we are both wasting our time.

And apparently believing that the dead in Christ and the living in Christ, the former will be resurrected to immortality and the later will be changed to immortality in the twinkling of an eye, TOGETHER meeting Him in the air, now equates to not believing that the dead in Christ are with Christ. Does that only apply to pre tribbers or does it also apply to other views since other views, though not agreeing with a pre trib rapture do indeed, I thought, believe that the dead and living in Christ would be resurrected/changed. How come your soul sleep accusation only applies to pre tribbers...or me....or both. How does the difference in timing of that resurrection and change equate to one particular timing mean those of that timing believe soul sleep? I mean, post trib and amil both do believe that there will be a resurrection of the dead in Christ and a change of the living in Christ, both to immortality right? But yet it is just the pre tribbers who are now, by your estimation, ones who believe is soul sleep?

I have asked and you have failed to do...How does the Bride watch Him return....and return with Him.Is th Bride gathered by angels and after He has returned to earth are then separated from the goats, or does she meet Him in the air? Is the trumpet sound signalling the angels to gather, or the Bride to meet Him?

Tell me, how exactly does it all happen at the same time and how is the Bride watching Him return and returning with Him... all those who watch Him returned are gathered by angels and separated after He has returned....but wait, the Bride returned with Him

I mean really, humor me. How exactly does believing in a rapture as one event and the Second Advent as another event equate to a determination of where the spirits of the dead in Christ are at. And how come a post trib rapture or an amil resurrection/change means they are not in the same place.... prior to that resurrection/change?

[John146]

Ok, Paul mentions the righteous coming with Christ...and so does Revelation 19, thus, after the Bride has been previously raptured She is able to then return with Him when He returns...also known as the Second Advent...not the rapture.

But Paul mentions the righteous coming with Christ from heaven at the time of the rapture so why wouldn't 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Rev 19:11-21 be the same event?

So does the Church come with Him, or does the Church watch Him coming?

Both. The spirits of the dead in Christ come with Him (1 Thess 4:14) and those who are alive and remain would see Him come.

Does She meet Him in the air, or does She get gathered by angels

Both. Why do these things you're listing have to be one or the other?

and then separated from the goats which happens after He has returned to earth...

Matt 25:31-46 doesn't say where the judgment takes place so what is the basis for thinking the separation of the sheep from the goats happens on the earth? It doesn't say that. If it is then it would have to be the new earth (renewed earth) since the earth as we know it will be burned up at that point (2 Peter 3:10-12).

Is She summoned to Him in the air or is She gathered by angels on the earth.

Both.

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The righteous dead in Christ meet Him in the air TOGETHER with the alive in Christ...so again, how do the dead come with Him and the alive in Him do not..

Where do you believe the spirits of the dead in Christ are right now and where do you think they will go at the time of the rapture?

they meet Him TOGETHER in the air...not the dead coming with Him and the alive later joining in...they are both summoned and meet Him TOGETHER. That is why Revelation 19 is not speaking about anything to do with the Rapture, but is speaking of the Second Advent.

What is your interpretation of 1 Thess 4:14? Do the spirits of the dead in Christ not have to first descend from heaven and unite with their resurrected bodies before bodily meeting Christ in the air with those who are alive and remain?

Thess 4 says His Bride meets Him in the air...that is why it says He does not continue to earth.

That passage only says we meet Him in the air and says nothing about what happens after that so it does not say that "He does not continue to earth".

She cannot meet Him in the air, and be on earth watching His return...be gathered by angels...be on earth to be separated from the goats...She meets Him in the air...all of her, not just the dead of her.

Yeah, and then what? It doesn't say, does it? Why are you acting as if 1 Thess 4:14-17 says anything at all about what happens after we meet Him in the air? It doesn't. We have to determine that from other scripture.

It does not say the dead meet Him, it says they ...TOGETHER.... meet Him in the air

I didn't say otherwise.

I didn't say it contradicted Matthew 24...I said your interpretation causes contradictions because the Bride cannot be in the air coming with Him and watching Him come at the same time.

Yes, it can. Where are the spirits of the dead in Christ now? Where are we now?

It does say where they are gathered. It says they are gathered before Christ who separates the sheep and goats after they have been gathered by angels.

Yes, but that passage doesn't say where exactly they are gathered before Christ (whether it's heaven, earth or somewhere else). Can you not even acknowledge that?

He returns on the earth, Mt Olives, where prophecy says Christ will return and touch the earth(Zech 14:4)

You know I disagree with your understanding of Zech 14, but at least you're showing that the basis for you believing Matt 25:31-46 occurs on earth is from other scripture and not from Matt 25:31-46 itself.

I am not saying there is any argument of silence in Revelation 19...Revelation 19 clearly says that the Bride is returning with Christ as He makes His Second Advent...not meeting Him in the air as He makes His Second Advent nor watching Him from the earth as He makes His Second Advent, but returning with Him. John sees heaven open up...where he sees Jesus leaving heaven followed by the Bride, (vv11, 14) The armies of heaven are none other than the Bride(v8)leaving heaven with Christ(v14)

Please tell me your understanding of what will happen to the spirits of the dead in Christ who are now in heaven with Christ at the time of the rapture. I see no reason why it couldn't be speaking of the dead in Christ (their spirits in particular) coming with Him from heaven but maybe you have a different understanding of the spirits of the dead in Christ than I do. Do you believe the souls and/or spirits of the dead in Christ are conscious and in heaven right now? I'm pretty sure you do so I'd like to know your understanding of what happens to the spirits of the dead in Christ at the time of the rapture.

I never said there was contradictions in the scripture...and there is less there suggesting they are the same event than suggesting they are the same event.

I completely disagree with that. I see nothing at all to suggest they can't be the same event. I just see a different level of detail in the passages we're discussing but nothing contradictory between them that would make it so that they can't be speaking of the same event.

No it isn't speculation at all...and no it is not like saying Matthew, Mark, Luke and John would be speaking of different Gospels, that comparison or explanation, or whatever it is, is nothing to do with this or an argument. It isn't a matter of different details of the same event such as are with the many many passages that speak of the Second Advent and the Millennial Kingdom. It is a matter of the details describing different events. And I think it safe to say that the different details regarding the Gospels still all describe the same Jesus and the same Gospel....I can't believe you even tried to use that as an argument.

It's a valid argument but you're not understanding my reason for using it. I can't make it any more clear than I already have. There is nothing in 1 Thess 4:14-17 that contradicts anything in Matt 24:27-31 or Rev 19:11-21 so seeing 1 Thess 4:14-17 as being a different event than those passages describe cannot be due to seeing contradictions between the two.

Yes, Thess does...because you have yet to give a solid explanation as to how the Bride watches Him return, then is gathered by angels, then is separated from the goats...but yet....meets Him in the air, and returns with Him.

See above. If you make no distinction between the spirits of the dead in Christ and their bodies then I can see how you can't see all those things happening as part of one event. But if you do make that distinction I don't see why it would be a problem with seeing those things as being part of one event.

You can't use the argument that it is the dead in Christ returning with Him because Thess clearly says that the dead and alive meet Him TOGETHER in the air

That's speaking of their bodies. What about their spirits?

What I said not making sense to you does not equate to me being wrong...lol

I didn't say that. How could I say it not making sense to me meant you were wrong when I wasn't even sure what you were trying to say?

I believe what Thessalonians and Corinthians both tell us...the dead are resurrected and the living changed, and both TOGETHER, meet Him in the air. And both then, per Revelation 19 return wit Him.

Where is your evidence to show that Rev 19:11-21 is speaking of them as already having been changed and returning with Him with immortal bodies?

Don't go down the soul sleep nonsense again,

It's not nonsense at all. You never mention anything about what happens to the spirits of the dead in Christ. Why is that? You're acting like I accused you of believing in soul sleep, but I didn't. Read my post more carefully. I said "I'm pretty sure you don't" believe in it. Did you somehow miss that? But for some reason you never say anything about what happens to the souls of the dead in Christ at the time of the rapture.

how you can possibly gather that anything I have said indicates I don't believe the spirits of the dead in Christ are with Him?

Did I not say I was pretty sure you didn't believe in soul sleep? Yes, I did. So, why are you acting as if I accused you of believing that. What I was saying is that the scenario I laid out would only be impossible in the case of soul sleep and since you don't believe in that I don't understand why you consider the scenario I laid out to be impossible. I'm not saying you have to agree with it, but you don't even seem to allow for the possibility that when it speaks of the dead in Christ coming with Him (1 Thess 4:14) it could be speaking of the spirits of the dead in Christ coming with Him from heaven.

If you can't understand me any better than that we are both wasting our time.

Again, you're acting like I accused you of believing in soul sleep but I didn't. I said I was pretty sure you didn't believe in it so don't be so overly sensitive.

And apparently believing that the dead in Christ and the living in Christ, the former will be resurrected to immortality and the later will be changed to immortality in the twinkling of an eye, TOGETHER meeting Him in the air, now equates to not believing that the dead in Christ are with Christ.

Again, I didn't say you believed in soul sleep. You must not have read what I said very carefully for you to think I was saying that. I was only saying the belief in soul sleep would be the only thing that would make my view impossible, yet I was pretty sure you didn't believe in that so I couldn't figure out why you wouldn't see my view as at least being possible.

Does that only apply to pre tribbers or does it also apply to other views since other views, though not agreeing with a pre trib rapture do indeed, I thought, believe that the dead and living in Christ would be resurrected/changed. How come your soul sleep accusation only applies to pre tribbers...or me....or both. How does the difference in timing of that resurrection and change equate to one particular timing mean those of that timing believe soul sleep? I mean, post trib and amil both do believe that there will be a resurrection of the dead in Christ and a change of the living in Christ, both to immortality right? But yet it is just the pre tribbers who are now, by your estimation, ones who believe is soul sleep?

That is not at all what I said. You need to read my posts more carefully.

I have asked and you have failed to do...How does the Bride watch Him return....and return with Him.Is th Bride gathered by angels and after He has returned to earth are then separated from the goats, or does she meet Him in the air? Is the trumpet sound signalling the angels to gather, or the Bride to meet Him?

Tell me, how exactly does it all happen at the same time and how is the Bride watching Him return and returning with Him... all those who watch Him returned are gathered by angels and separated after He has returned....but wait, the Bride returned with Him

I mean really, humor me. How exactly does believing in a rapture as one event and the Second Advent as another event equate to a determination of where the spirits of the dead in Christ are at. And how come a post trib rapture or an amil resurrection/change means they are not in the same place.... prior to that resurrection/change?

I explained all this above. If you don't understand my view after this post then the situation is hopeless.

[DurbanDude]

There are too many differences in the verses that describe the "second coming" for it to be anything other than two separate events.... Like I said.... When I have a bit of time I will list them and their differences....

Hoping you get the time soon to delve into this, like I said, I believe the differences you may see between the so-called two events are not mutually exclusive. Any so-called "rapture" event also fits neatly into the second coming, unless you approach the verse with pre-trib assumptions.

Additionally I feel you did not deal adequately with 2 Thessalonians 2, where I pointed out that its the pre-trib saints that are expected to gather only AFTER the appearance of the antichrist (Paul says "our gathering", not "their gathering").

Neither did you acknowledge my point that Matthew 24 is a post-trib description and involves the angels coming with Christ, angels also come with Christ at the rapture.
The "two events" also involve two trumpets because a trumpet is blown at the rapture (read 1 Cor 15:52 1 Thess 4:6) and a trumpet is also blown after the tribulation at the second coming (Matthew 24:31 Rev 11:15).

So we have Jesus coming down from heaven into the clouds twice, the saints being gathered together twice leaving behind the unsaved on earth, the angels coming with Jesus twice, and two trumpet blasts. Sounds like one event to me.