Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?

[Gadgeteer]

JFB
have not faith — or as Greek, “the faith” of the Christian: the only antidote to what is “unreasonable and wicked.” The Thessalonians, from their ready acceptance of the Gospel (1Th_1:5, 1Th_1:6), might think “all” would similarly receive it; but the Jews were far from having such a readiness to believe the truth.

KJV
2Th 3:1 Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:
2Th 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

YLT
2Th 3:2 and that we may be delivered from the unreasonable and evil men, for the faith is not of all;

ISV
2Th 3:2 Also pray that we may be rescued from worthless and evil people, since not everyone holds to the faith.

Oh, and if all you want is a proof text.....
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

This is a "Semitic View" (anthropomorphism --- ascribing to GOD what men do THEMSELVES) (see Ex10:1, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart", when a couple verses earlier 9:34 Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart; it's a literary device.)

Rom12:3 is addressed to believers, and does not assert that "God gives faith to SOME" (which by definition would mean He is causally-involved in UNBELIEF, in sin, in violating His own nature and character --- Matt12:25-29).

[Noeb]

This is a "Semitic View" (anthropomorphism --- ascribing to GOD what men do THEMSELVES) (see Ex10:1, "God hardened Pharaoh's heart", when a couple verses earlier 9:34 Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart; it's a literary device.)

Rom12:3 is addressed to believers, and does not assert that "God gives faith to SOME" (which by definition would mean He is causally-involved in UNBELIEF, in sin, in violating His own nature and character --- Matt12:25-29).

I'm not postulating that so I don't know why you posted this.

[Noeb]

Here you go again saying that it "really means something else" . It plainly states that not all men have faith. You can get a thousand commentators to tell us the sky is green but anyone,with the possible exception of yourself,can see it is blue.

Please!

-Pray that the word have free course
-delivered from unreasonable and wicked men
-for all do not have faith .....like Enoch, Noah, Abraham, David, and so on....

Some are unreasonable and wicked, rejecting the knowledge of God and turned over thrice to themselves. This is just common sense. God doesn't give 'saving faith' to some and not others. Either everyone starts out with the ability or no one does and scripture is quite clear we are his image. God's not a calvinist.

[Gadgeteer]

I'm not postulating that so I don't know why you posted this.

Well -- there are those who do. Not alotta verses used to try to support "gifted-faith". But it makes Jesus' whole Crucifixion questionable; what did He accomplish, if it's really GOD who gives faith to a FEW? That makes the Cross more "pageantry" than "effective".

There can only be a judgment of mankind if faith is a CHOICE. So too can believing NOT be called "wise" (and disbelieving "foolish") in Matt7:24-27, if it's really God who gives faith/belief to (a few) men. "Gifted-faith" by definition portrays God as a false-judge, hypocrite, and "causally involved" in sin and reprobation. No offense meant to anyone.

It's the same with sanctification; if sanctification is a process (that is, we start PARTLY sanctified and grow towards perfection) --- that would make the Cross less than effective. Because most of sanctification would be from our GROWTH rather than from Jesus.

We were sanctified in the name of Jesus and in the Spirit. Were. Done deal.
Will we be sanctified tomorrow? Yes, if we abide in Him, if we "continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus) the hope."

[Noeb]

Well -- there are those who do. Not alotta verses used to try to support "gifted-faith". But it makes Jesus' whole Crucifixion questionable; what did He accomplish, if it's really GOD who gives faith to a FEW? That makes the Cross more "pageantry" than "effective".

There can only be a judgment of mankind if faith is a CHOICE. So too can believing only be called "wise" (and disbelieving "foolish") in Matt7:24-27, if it's really God who gives faith/belief to (a few) men. "Gifted-faith" by definition portrays God as a false-judge, hypocrite, and "causally involved" in sin and reprobation. No offense meant to anyone.

It's the same with sanctification; if sanctification is a process (that is, we start PARTLY sanctified and grow towards perfection) --- that would make the Cross less than effective. Because most of sanctification would be from our GROWTH rather than from Jesus.

We were sanctified in the name of Jesus and in the Spirit. Were. Done deal.
Will we be sanctified tomorrow? Yes, if we abide in Him, if we "continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from (Jesus) the hope."

Agreed! .........

[shepherdsword]

Please!

-Pray that the word have free course
-delivered from unreasonable and wicked men
-for all do not have faith .....like Enoch, Noah, Abraham, David, and so on....

Some are unreasonable and wicked, rejecting the knowledge of God and turned over thrice to themselves. This is just common sense. God doesn't give 'saving faith' to some and not others. Either everyone starts out with the ability or no one does and scripture is quite clear we are his image. God's not a calvinist.

Paul's statement disputes your position that all men have faith. What part about "for all men do not have faith" is it that you do not understand? The context is about wicked and unreasonable men,Paul clearly stated that not all of these have faith. You are presenting a concept that is clearly contradicted by scripture. It is certainly true that God isn't a calvanist,it is also just as true that he isn't an universalist either.If all men have faith,as you claim,then all would be saved. We know that this isn't supported by scripture. Perhaps your opinion stems from a misunderstanding of this verse:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

As you pointed out earlier,context is important. Here we see that "every man" is limited to those that were "among you"
Faith isn't some divine quality that is unfairly dispersed among humanity nor is it a virtue that is in grafted into all men.
It is a choice.

[episkopos]

While this might prick the vanity of some...Christians are not more chosen or special than the Israelites who were saved out of Egypt. God's works are very great...but men are men. God is very selective about whom He allows into His rest. Many are called but few are chosen...
Notice here...

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

[shepherdsword]

While this might prick the vanity of some...Christians are not more chosen or special than the Israelites who were saved out of Egypt. God's works are very great...but men are men. God is very selective about whom He allows into His rest. Many are called but few are chosen...
Notice here...

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

and here:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

If we fail to hear his voice by hardening our hearts would God be just to allow us to enter into his rest when Israel,who he also called and chose,was forbidden? We need to fear lest that which was spoken in the prophets should befall us as well:

Act 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

[episkopos]

and here:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

If we fail to hear his voice by hardening our hearts would God be just to allow us to enter into his rest when Israel,who he also called and chose,was forbidden? We need to fear lest that which was spoken in the prophets should befall us as well:

Act 13:40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets:41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Amen! Vanity has no place in Christianity.

[episkopos]

While this might prick the vanity of some...Christians are not more chosen or special than the Israelites who were saved out of Egypt. God's works are very great...but men are men. God is very selective about whom He allows into His rest. Many are called but few are chosen...
Notice here...

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Was Paul himself being vain in declaring this? No for he himself also feared being cut-off.

1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Vanity is just one more quality of the willful rebellious flesh that dis-qualifies us from inheriting the promises of God.

[Nobunaga]

This thread has degenerated from a useful debate on sanctification.... to a pointless backbiting exercise with people saying in essence (your not a Christian if you dont do this or your not a Christian if you dont think like me)...it's absolutely ridiculous given the topic of sanctification...there is far too much pride going on here !

Peace out...enjoy the backbiting

[episkopos]

This thread has degenerated from a useful debate on sanctification.... to a pointless backbiting exercise with people saying in essence (your not a Christian if you dont do this or your not a Christian if you dont think like me)...it's absolutely ridiculous given the topic of sanctification...there is far too much pride going on here !

Peace out...enjoy the backbiting

Exactly! This is where the battle lies for our souls. Many will seek to discount the conditions of the bible while claiming the rewards of the bible. The ways of the flesh are a contagion that must be dealt with at the cross. Rather than surrender many will put up a fight to argue against the conditions clearly laid out in the bible. It has always been this way...ever since the people grumbled in the wilderness.

[Noeb]

Paul's statement disputes your position that all men have faith. What part about "for all men do not have faith" is it that you do not understand? The context is about wicked and unreasonable men,Paul clearly stated that not all of these have faith. You are presenting a concept that is clearly contradicted by scripture. It is certainly true that God isn't a calvanist,it is also just as true that he isn't an universalist either.If all men have faith,as you claim,then all would be saved. We know that this isn't supported by scripture. Perhaps your opinion stems from a misunderstanding of this verse:

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

As you pointed out earlier,context is important. Here we see that "every man" is limited to those that were "among you"
Faith isn't some divine quality that is unfairly dispersed among humanity nor is it a virtue that is in grafted into all men.
It is a choice.

No, Paul did not dispute Rahab had faith and others that were not "Christians" or "Jews" with some special gift from God that others don't have. It really doesn't matter whether this is referring to Christianity or not. These are not unreasonable and wicked people. Good people believe in a creator and in doing good despite not giving their all to him. It doesn't mean they are "saved". It means they trust (have faith) what is right, which is (and by) God's law on their heart. If however you believe such things as total depravity and sin nature at birth you of course would disagree with this. I don't expect otherwise. Faith is not some special gift given to men so they can be different than everyone else, like some kind of elite group. Sinners have faith in their spouses, that their car will get them from A to B, that the roof on their house won't leak. It's just trust in something, and all do it.

The context here is
unreasonable and wicked
as opposed to
trust -implicating good--faith

Again, it really doesn't matter whether this is referring to Christianity or not. Historically.....you do study scripture in historical and cultural context as well as language, don't you? Good. Historically, Paul was in Corinth when he wrote this, were the Jews "opposed themselves" and "made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,". Paul even told the Thessalonians

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Whether it's "the faith" -Christianity, or faith -trust in doing Good, this passage without a doubt, is not saying some just don't have 'some thing' called faith, as in they never did or could not. Unreasonable and wicked men who once knew God, reject the knowledge of God and bring wrath upon themselves and become reprobate. That's the truth.

[shepherdsword]

No, Paul did not dispute Rahab had faith and others that were not "Christians" or "Jews" with some special gift from God that others don't have. It really doesn't matter whether this is referring to Christianity or not. These are not unreasonable and wicked people. Good people believe in a creator and in doing good despite not giving their all to him. It doesn't mean they are "saved". It means they trust (have faith) what is right, which is (and by) God's law on their heart. If however you believe such things as total depravity and sin nature at birth you of course would disagree with this. I don't expect otherwise. Faith is not some special gift given to men so they can be different than everyone else, like some kind of elite group. Sinners have faith in their spouses, that their car will get them from A to B, that the roof on their house won't leak. It's just trust in something, and all do it.

The context here is
unreasonable and wicked
as opposed to
trust -implicating good--faith

Again, it really doesn't matter whether this is referring to Christianity or not. Historically.....you do study scripture in historical and cultural context as well as language, don't you? Good. Historically, Paul was in Corinth when he wrote this, were the Jews "opposed themselves" and "made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,". Paul even told the Thessalonians

1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Whether it's "the faith" -Christianity, or faith -trust in doing Good, this passage without a doubt, is not saying some just don't have 'some thing' called faith, as in they never did or could not. Unreasonable and wicked men who once knew God, reject the knowledge of God and bring wrath upon themselves and become reprobate. That's the truth.

Yes,it is true that all men do not have faith as Paul explicitly stated. I will get out the way so you can backpeddle.

[Noeb]

How did I backpeddle shep?