Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?

[episkopos]

Notice the race of faith here laid out..the training unto the character that displays His holiness in us...

Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Getting in physical shape happens through a bodily exercising of our muscles. Getting into the shape of Christ requires an exercising of the faith we have been given so as to produce the fruit of righteousness and the character required to contain God's very holiness. Sounds a lot like a process!!!!

[glad4mercy]

Notice the race of faith here laid out..the training unto the character that displays His holiness in us...

Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Good passage, Episcopos. This shows that God chastens His children so that they can grow in practical holiness, and yield more fruit. I see no contradiction between Christ's once for all work of sanctification and the process of growing in holiness. One is the seed and the other is the fruit.

[Noeb]

He who is born from above now has a new nature. There is no duality in nature...

Glad to hear that!

but there remains the fragility of the human condition and the choices we make due to a lack of maturity in our character. You have not addressed the passages in 2 Peter that state that IN SPITE OF having this power and nature we will stumble and fall unless we move on to selflessness in our own souls. The whole process of sanctification makes us learn to love...rather than be selfishly ambitious. See here again...

1Ti_3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

A novice what??? The devil was also perfect BEFORE sin was found in him...and so was Adam. So the truth is that we can be led astray through our own ambition and desires of the soul. Whoever does not see this is already taken in these very errors.

We are born of the Spirit but there remains a fragility of the human condition?
I did address 2Peter. You read in spite of I read because of.
I don't see 'unless we move on to selflessness in our souls' there either.

The central theme found with proponents of progressive sanctification is an over emphasis on the soul that is way beyond the scope of scripture. Jesus didn't do anything for that. So we are left with it. That is our part. This is not found in scripure. What is found in scripture is that the soul is the body+spirit, and those that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Also, since the spirit is part of the soul, we can't throw out what Jesus did here!

I'm not saying we can't be led astray or there is no battle, just that the battle has been won. The victory that overcomes the world has been won and we've been left with the faith. The gospel and word that reaches into every aspect of our lives and being when we believe it and let it.

[Noeb]

This is a bizarre question to ask...I suspect there is some sort of language/cultural barrier at play ?

but Romans 8:3 is the answer.

I think we would all agree if we could find the words as per post 144 ?

What's the question? Romans 8:3 is what I said, so are you agreeing with me?

[Noeb]

Exactly...but

Of course!!! Now that we have access to divine power and the divine nature we walk out these things in humility and obedience to God. We must overcome selfishness, pride, ambition and all the other sins of the soul. We do this through the Spirit to the saving of the soul. We cannot yet love selflessly at the beginning of our Christian walks...we will want something for ourselves. That is....until we learn to suffer so that others find love. This is an outrage against our own weak persons. Christianity is a walk...not a smug self-assurance. WORK OUT your own salvation (of the soul) with fear and trembling. We all have through the new nature to conquer our old CHARACTER for one that aligns with and conforms to Christ. To not see this is to fall into the catagory that Peter warns us about.

You said renewing of the mind happens as we walk, did you not? Yet the passage says renew your mind and you'll be transformed and prove.......

Renew you mind to what? What will transform you? [all these found in Romans]
beliving a God that calls things that are not as though they are
your baptism with Christ into a one time death and resurrection
dead to sin/alive to God [once]
living as one alive from the dead
the old man is dead and married to another [Christ/Spirit]
Christ freed you from the body of sin and death
law was weak through flesh so Christ crucified it
put his Spirit in you so when you believe these you will not sin

Sins of the soul? Not just sins? That's not enough for you? What are sins of the spirit? Sins of the body? If there's a distinction, lets be clear and define them so we can be on the same page.

I know for a fact we can love selflessly at the beginning of our Christian walk. Just because you didn't or have never seen it, doesn't make it so.

[Noeb]

In the early church days men didn't just ignore the doctrine of overcoming sin the way people do now. rather some explained it away through a gnostic twist that stated that we (our spirit) was already sinless in spite of the fact that the body continually sinned. This created a duality (schizophrenic) of personhood where a Christian was no longer responsible for the sin he was doing. There is a similar scheme in the majority of churches today...but this involves twisting the actual words of the bible to mean that we are saved only from the consequences of sin...not the sin itself. So rather than turn away from SIN entirely, we are told to repent of SINS thereby seeking to prune a bad tree that continually produces new sins (which are automatically forgiven in this scheme).

But both these schemes negate the truth. We ARE responsible for every deed and every thought our bodies and souls do.

So gnosticism denies the need for maturity in the soul in order to maintain a purity and Christ-likeness in our character. This is circumvented by a supposed "saving knowledge" that can smugly be relied on to save the person in spite of their continued sinning. But the truth is that we have entered a race of faith AFTER coming to Christ. This is the ongoing sanctification (becoming truly a saint) of a character that conforms to Christ. Jesus Himself was also trained...how much more do we also need to be trained as He was? It is only through this school of Christ that we are made ready to join with Christ in ruling over His creation.

Well, since I don't propose either one of those, was that for the sake of discussion or did you think I propse one or both?

[Nobunaga]

What's the question? Romans 8:3 is what I said, so are you agreeing with me?

It's never boring with you anyway Noeb, i'll give you that...you seem very cryptic to me, can i ask where your from ? I'm from Scotland so i may be missing nuances in your posts.

[episkopos]

Well, since I don't propose either one of those, was that for the sake of discussion or did you think I propse one or both?

You seem to espouse a hybrid form of gnosticism where one is made perfect instantly...while negating the growth necessary to attain maturity and the full stature of Christ. We are BORN of the Spirit in an instant not MADE mature of the Spirit in an instant.

[episkopos]

You said renewing of the mind happens as we walk, did you not? Yet the passage says renew your mind and you'll be transformed and prove.......

Renew you mind to what? What will transform you? [all these found in Romans]
beliving a God that calls things that are not as though they are
your baptism with Christ into a one time death and resurrection
dead to sin/alive to God [once]
living as one alive from the dead
the old man is dead and married to another [Christ/Spirit]
Christ freed you from the body of sin and death
law was weak through flesh so Christ crucified it
put his Spirit in you so when you believe these you will not sin

Sins of the soul? Not just sins? That's not enough for you? What are sins of the spirit? Sins of the body? If there's a distinction, lets be clear and define them so we can be on the same page.

I know for a fact we can love selflessly at the beginning of our Christian walk. Just because you didn't or have never seen it, doesn't make it so.

I walked in the light at the beginning of my walk...without sin. But as I saw the price I was paying for others so that they were receiving a blessing at my expense...I was outraged. As Paul said...we suffer so that you may be made rich. Those who have not experienced their own weakness like this have not yet embarked on the road to sanctification.

Often times men will seek to build their lives in the shape of a form of holiness...but without using the materials bought from heaven. We are to build (through the process) upon the foundation which is Christ. But we must be careful HOW we build. See...we must be careful that we follow the correct process....

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.


Building is NOT an instantaneous event but a process. Now imagine a cross and on one side you have what men can do in their own strength...wood hay and stubble...and on the other side of the cross...what we buy from God...gold, silver and precious stones. Now both of these structures appear the same to men...that is until they are tested in fire. Then only what is holy will NOT be burned up.

Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Co 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.

So WE are to build with holiness. God has done His part...but we must undergo the growth into THAT holiness so that we can retain it. It is one thing to have the sword of the Spirit and quite another to learn how to wield it.

[episkopos]

Glad to hear that!

We are born of the Spirit but there remains a fragility of the human condition?
I did address 2Peter. You read in spite of I read because of.
I don't see 'unless we move on to selflessness in our souls' there either.

The central theme found with proponents of progressive sanctification is an over emphasis on the soul that is way beyond the scope of scripture. Jesus didn't do anything for that. So we are left with it. That is our part. This is not found in scripure. What is found in scripture is that the soul is the body+spirit, and those that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Also, since the spirit is part of the soul, we can't throw out what Jesus did here!

I'm not saying we can't be led astray or there is no battle, just that the battle has been won. The victory that overcomes the world has been won and we've been left with the faith. The gospel and word that reaches into every aspect of our lives and being when we believe it and let it.

WE are to overcome by faith in Christ. But WE must run the race. Jesus doesn't run the race in our place...we must submit ourselves to Him daily to win the race. The soul must be conquered just as Canaan needed to be conquered although it was the promised land of God. To miss this is to miss everything.



You are not able to see the soul in the scriptures?

We are to love God with what? The heart AND the soul...We do not receive a new soul at regeneration but a new heart (a quickened spirit). If you cannot follow the logic of this then no other amount of bible verses will pry you away from your present understanding.

How can you miss verses like this?....

Heb_4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mar_12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Heb_10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1Pe_2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

In Hebrew the spirit is rouach...the soul is nephesh...and the body is gouph. There has always been a 3 part entity to our make-up. We are to love God with ALL our hearts (in the Spirit) our souls (progressive maturity) and our strength (bodily service).

So through the Spirit we conquer the soul for Christ. Having begun in the Spirit we are then perfected through the Spirit. Unless we realize this and do this we will be as the Galatians who sought maturity through human effort. (Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? )

[Noeb]

Nobunaga, I'm from the USA. I'm not a great communicator but....

I said,
go and show grace can do what the law could not

Then you posted the verse that says grace does what the law could not, so I don't know where we lost each other.

[Noeb]

Episkopos, I did not say I do not see soul in scripture. I know them well. I've never seen the things you and what the writers of the before mentioned books say about it in scripture.

[Noeb]

Where have I negated growth and maturity, episkopos?

[shepherdsword]

Oh, OK, I thought you were talking about being leaky, since that is what you quoted episkopos saying.

I understand the term "leaky"

Almost every morning I seek God and get filled with his presence. However,throughout the day I gradually drift through distractions, responsibilities and sometimes sin. I need a daily encounter with Jesus to refresh me. I have alot of respect for episkopos. He has a true understanding of the process and how we must walk. I try to listen to people like him despite not always agreeing perfectly with their theology. I consider him an elder and a protector of the Lord's lambs. Try to hear what the Spirit is saying and He might give you some deeper insight.

[Nobunaga]

Nobunaga, I'm from the USA. I'm not a great communicator but....

I said,
go and show grace can do what the law could not

Then you posted the verse that says grace does what the law could not, so I don't know where we lost each other.

Sorry Noeb i picked it up wrong which is my fault not yours.

Do you mind answering a question... So you Dont think there is a process in the Christian life where we abide in Christ and bear fruit ? Instead Do you think that abiding in Christ and bearing fruit is just a realization or revelation of the position we have with Christ that we are dead to sin and is therefore not progressive as we are dead ?

If this is the case i dont think its a doctrinal issue but rather its subjective depending on the revelation and experience and where you are as a Christian. This may be fine to discuss the finer points of sanctification on a message board but disipleship is not like this in real life and i think this is missing.... the NT is replete with exhortations and calls to action. You could just tell a new Christian dont sin becasue your dead to sin now...how effective will that be ? would this be neglecting a new believer if thats all the advice we gave ?