Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?

[episkopos]

Maturity in holiness...I like this wording! We are given all we need at birth, genetically, to mature into adults. Spiritually speaking, we are given all we need to mature into spiritual saints. As we mature, more and more of us is set apart (sanctified) unto the Lord. I simply cannot see a way to separate maturing from progressive sanctification...even though progressive sanctification is nothing more than an ever-increasing manifestation of what is already true about us.

Watchman

In total agreement with this! Do we have a consensus!!!

[Saved7]

Maturity in holiness...I like this wording! We are given all we need at birth, genetically, to mature into adults. Spiritually speaking, we are given all we need to mature into spiritual saints. As we mature, more and more of us is set apart (sanctified) unto the Lord. I simply cannot see a way to separate maturing from progressive sanctification...even though progressive sanctification is nothing more than an ever-increasing manifestation of what is already true about us.

Watchman

In total agreement with this! Do we have a consensus!!!

I'll second your motion. Amen.

[Noeb]

I can see what you are saying here, and it appears we agree, except that we have a different concept of what it means to grow and mature. Meaning I see that part as further sanctification of the body and life here and now, while you simply don't make that link. On this, we'll just have to agree to disagree as it seems to be a minor detail really.

Interesting choice of words. Can you explain a little more?

[Noeb]

This is a very important subject to be sure. There is a danger of misunderstanding what our direction should be...and we must be careful to get it right. I mean it is hard enough to live as a Christian in this world let alone be building improperly on our initial foundation.

Certainly agree there!

There seems to be a consensus that we must build through the cross of Christ and with the new life OF Christ. There seems to be 2 major errors concerning this. On the one hand we have those who believe simply in a progressive attainment of a "renovated" life that seeks to imitate Christ but without the power to do so (always learning but never knowing the truth). This denies the requirement for a death and an initial loss before there is any gain. On the other hand we seem to have those who believe that we have already arrived...we just need to realize this... at the outset of our regeneration and commitment to Christ.

The first scenario is definitely wrong in that Christianity is not through a human effort. The second scenario is more difficult to dispel because of the reality of God's grace and the resurrection power associated with it. But can we discount the fact that this initial burst of holiness is sufficient for us to make it all the way to the finish line? Hence the prospect of unreality entering into the equation unless we see that we must be filled many times over and over again in order to "perfect holiness in the fear of God."

Rule #1 in a discussion.....never try to dispel a pov no one is making and is obvious to all.

[Noeb]

I'm a little amazed this thread is still so active. It is quite true that we are completely set apart by the Holy Spirit when we are saved...no argument. However, that takes awhile to be manifest in us. We are completely sanctified--set apart from the world and from sin--when we are saved. That is what is true of us IN ETERNITY. The manifestation of the truth, however, takes a process, or a season(s), to be shown in our lives to be true. This period of time is a lifetime for some...less for others. We are comparing apples and oranges when we dispute this. What is true of us in the mind of God takes time to be worked out down here where folks are limited by time and space. It this isn't the case, then everyone who is saved is automatically a mature saint...which the scriptures show is not the case.

blessings,

Watchman

I mostly agree with this, but neither Paul or the author of Hebrews thought it should take a long time, much less a lifetime, but it is the fruit of 'progressive sanctification'.

It took this individual 6 years to realize the fruit of 'the ways of death' (progressive sanctification). Took me 5 years.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...sanctification

episkopos' answer is 'misery loves company'
"The answer is to be surrounded by others with this same life"
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/230727-The-pain-of-sanctification?p=2747947#post2747947
Not at all what Jesus gave us.

Eyelog, on the other hand is more on the ball.
"At some point, Dani, I feel the fruit of tree metaphor breaks down, especially if we act as if the tree is supposed to be as slow at producing fruit as a real tree might be. Paul uses metaphors that speak of instant results. Would you agree? For that matter, Aaron's staff budded overnite, and grew ripe almonds. Yum."

[shepherdsword]

I mostly agree with this, but neither Paul or the author of Hebrews thought it should take a long time, much less a lifetime, but it is the fruit of 'progressive sanctification'.

It took this individual 6 years to realize the fruit of 'the ways of death' (progressive sanctification). Took me 5 years.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...sanctification

episkopos' answer is 'misery loves company'
"The answer is to be surrounded by others with this same life"
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.php/230727-The-pain-of-sanctification?p=2747947#post2747947
Not at all what Jesus gave us.

Eyelog, on the other hand is more on the ball.
"At some point, Dani, I feel the fruit of tree metaphor breaks down, especially if we act as if the tree is supposed to be as slow at producing fruit as a real tree might be. Paul uses metaphors that speak of instant results. Would you agree? For that matter, Aaron's staff budded overnite, and grew ripe almonds. Yum."

Noeb,
I have been reading the thread and I think you do have a grasp on a very important truth. We are crucified with Christ. This is a reality.There is nothing that our personal virtue or righteousness can add to the cleansing force of the blood of Jesus.This is where we begin and end or end and begin according to what perspective you view it from. For not only am I crucified with Christ,I am also resurrected with him.However,the grasping and the externalization of this reality into a constant walk in the Spirit is a process. We can call this process "maturity" or "sanctification" or as I prefer "The wilderness experience" but how ever we label it,the goal is the breaking of my will to conform to His will.The process is detailed quite clearly in Israel's wilderness journey. The Lord delivers us all from bondage but he then takes us through a time of testing,a time of purging and purifying of our faith.This faith we have is flawed with dross and impurities because of our desire for other things. We undergo a process much like gold is tried...in a furnace of fire where the impurities rise to the surface and are removed. Let's look at the examples given us in the word concerning the process and see if you agree with this take:

Ja 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

We are told here that the "trying" of our faith produces a fruit that by it's very nature cannot be instantaneous:

dokimazō(trying)
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy

Abraham was given the promise but the process was a long one to achieve. In this process he learned patience.


1Pt 1:6 . Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Here once again we are told that sometimes it is necessary for us to be in many temptations so that our faith can be proven and tested. This is not an instantaneous process. What we see here is not that our righteousness or personal holiness is being improved but....that the faith that requires us to partake of Christ's righteousness is being perfected. This is a BIG difference and I thing that some of the adversarial comments about the process were just due to a misunderstanding.We are as holy when we accept Christ as we will ever be but the externalization of this virtue is a painful process that can,as Peter pointed out,cause "heaviness". The proper word is "sorrow" and shows the pain of the process.

it is interesting that after the faith chapter,where faith is defined and where it's fruit is shown,we are left with this exhortation:

Hb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons

This scourging and chastening isn't to make us more holy...that was done at calvery,it is done so that our faith might be purified to partake of His holiness:

Hb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

We can call the process "testing" "sanctification" "chastening" but I still prefer "the wilderness experience"

When we come to Yeshua we have all kinds of expectations,goals,desires and painful situations. Our expectation is that God will fulfill them all and deliver us from all turmoil. His desire is that we might come to love him more than anything else. The peaceful resolution of these two contrary goals involve a process of pain AND joy. Pain when we lose those idols that we hold up to God and demand that he fulfill them and JOY when we find that He is all we need. That is all I mean by "breaking" or sanctification. In a certain sense I am completely justified and sanctified(set apart) the moment I receive the indwelling Christ.( as he receives me) However,how much of my life have I set apart(sanctified) for him when I first come to him? He gave me all of his life...shall I give him less than all of mine? Shall I still run with the girls or sit around and watch TV like I used to and rob him of some of my life? When I say "sanctification" I am using it in a way that defines how much I have sacrificed to spend time with him...not as if I am adding to his finished work by my personal holiness.
I was first saved at age 20. I am now 50. In the years that have transpired I have seen many ups and downs. there were times when I was so angry at God that I hated him because of the pain he allowed(not caused). There were times when my passion and love for him were so intense I thought I would explode. I noticed that most of my pain was due to God not fulfilling one of the goals I had set for him. I mean,didn't he understand that he had to bow to me?(sarcasm) Once I got this revelation the hatred fled and only the passion and love remained:

Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

HE is my reward! I need nothing else!

It can sometimes take some of us many years to learn this. We will wander in the wilderness until we do:

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience(patience,by it's very nature cannot be instantaneous) and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

[Saved7]

I love this thread. Because of Noeb's strong stance we've all had to really examine both sides of understanding of sanctification and I've learned some glorious things and have been blessed by all! Thank you all.

[Noeb]

That thrills me Saved7! That's why I said early on I think it's one of, if not the most important issue facing the Church. Whether we agree or disagree to certain points we all need wisdom and understanding on this topic and as with so many topics, a lot of information out there is just not accurate.

[glad4mercy]

I'll second your motion. Amen.

I'll third.

It could be that initial sanctification is the planting of the seed, and the outworking that we have been calling progressive sanctification is the growth and fruit of that seed that was planted once for all.

Moving from fruitfulness, ( positive holiness) to our death to sin: Sin is also like a tree with roots and fruits. I've noticed that when God deals with sin, He wants to deal with it at it's roots. Man wants to take a big axe and chop the tree down, but the root is still there. God wants to cut the tree of sin down and remove it's roots. Now if I have roots of pride, lust, wrong motives, bitterness, etc. is it because God didnt remove those in my conversion or initial sanctification or is it because I let satan plant some tares in my heart post conversion. I still find myself struggling at times with a bad attitude, a hesitancy to admit when I'm wrong, sometimes I do things from a wrong motive. Now I believe that these things are sin. I do not practice these things, but they do come out from time to time. Why? Because the flesh is still lusting and warring against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. Yet I am progressively overcoming these things. I was set free from their power at conversion by initial sanctification, but the uprooting of them and exercising that dominion seems to take time.

It's kind of like when a war is already won, but there are still pockets of resistance from the losing side.

[Noeb]

Noeb,
I have been reading the thread and I think you do have a grasp on a very important truth. We are crucified with Christ. This is a reality.There is nothing that our personal virtue or righteousness can add to the cleansing force of the blood of Jesus.This is where we begin and end or end and begin according to what perspective you view it from. For not only am I crucified with Christ,I am also resurrected with him.However,the grasping and the externalization of this reality into a constant walk in the Spirit is a process.

neither Paul or the author of Hebrews thought it should take a long time, much less a lifetime.

We can call this process "maturity" or "sanctification" or as I prefer "The wilderness experience"

That was supposed to be a short experience. Their sin prolonged it.

but how ever we label it,the goal is the breaking of my will to conform to His will.

You were broken, then you were made a new creature and healed. There is nothing in the entirety of the NT that says we are to be broken again. Your will not mine, is not broken. Trials of faith are not there to break you, but build you.

The process is detailed quite clearly in Israel's wilderness journey.

That was supposed to be a short experience. Their sin prolonged it.

Ja 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

We are told here that the "trying" of our faith produces a fruit that by it's very nature cannot be instantaneous:

dokimazō(trying)
1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy

Abraham was given the promise but the process was a long one to achieve. In this process he learned patience.


1Pt 1:6 . Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Here once again we are told that sometimes it is necessary for us to be in many temptations so that our faith can be proven and tested. This is not an instantaneous process. What we see here is not that our righteousness or personal holiness is being improved but....that the faith that requires us to partake of Christ's righteousness is being perfected. This is a BIG difference and I thing that some of the adversarial comments about the process were just due to a misunderstanding.We are as holy when we accept Christ as we will ever be but the externalization of this virtue is a painful process that can,as Peter pointed out,cause "heaviness". The proper word is "sorrow" and shows the pain of the process.

it is interesting that after the faith chapter,where faith is defined and where it's fruit is shown,we are left with this exhortation:

Hb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons

This scourging and chastening isn't to make us more holy...that was done at calvery,it is done so that our faith might be purified to partake of His holiness:

Hb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

We can call the process "testing" "sanctification" "chastening" but I still prefer "the wilderness experience"

When we come to Yeshua we have all kinds of expectations,goals,desires and painful situations. Our expectation is that God will fulfill them all and deliver us from all turmoil. His desire is that we might come to love him more than anything else. The peaceful resolution of these two contrary goals involve a process of pain AND joy. Pain when we lose those idols that we hold up to God and demand that he fulfill them and JOY when we find that He is all we need. That is all I mean by "breaking" or sanctification. In a certain sense I am completely justified and sanctified(set apart) the moment I receive the indwelling Christ.( as he receives me) However,how much of my life have I set apart(sanctified) for him when I first come to him? He gave me all of his life...shall I give him less than all of mine? Shall I still run with the girls or sit around and watch TV like I used to and rob him of some of my life? When I say "sanctification" I am using it in a way that defines how much I have sacrificed to spend time with him...not as if I am adding to his finished work by my personal holiness.
I was first saved at age 20. I am now 50. In the years that have transpired I have seen many ups and downs. there were times when I was so angry at God that I hated him because of the pain he allowed(not caused). There were times when my passion and love for him were so intense I thought I would explode. I noticed that most of my pain was due to God not fulfilling one of the goals I had set for him. I mean,didn't he understand that he had to bow to me?(sarcasm) Once I got this revelation the hatred fled and only the passion and love remained:

Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

HE is my reward! I need nothing else!

It can sometimes take some of us many years to learn this. We will wander in the wilderness until we do:

Ro 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience(patience,by it's very nature cannot be instantaneous) and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

We are talking about how to overcome sin, not trials that yield patience. Patience is enduring faith. Your examples in James and Hebrews are not about believers that are going through trials because they are sinning. They are going through trials because they are believers being persecuted for being believers in Christ, or simply because they live in a world where there is sickness, disease, perils, distress. These things do not help us overcome sin. There are people that do literally beat there body, hoping to yield subjection to Christ. People that think trials are there cross to bear, in that God specifically gave it to them to teach them a lesson, but it's not Christianity.

[shepherdsword]

neither Paul or the author of Hebrews thought it should take a long time, much less a lifetime.


That was supposed to be a short experience. Their sin prolonged it.


You were broken, then you were made a new creature and healed. There is nothing in the entirety of the NT that says we are to be broken again. Your will not mine, is not broken. Trials of faith are not there to break you, but build you.


That was supposed to be a short experience. Their sin prolonged it.


We are talking about how to overcome sin, not trials that yield patience. Patience is enduring faith. Your examples in James and Hebrews are not about believers that are going through trials because they are sinning. They are going through trials because they are believers being persecuted for being believers in Christ, or simply because they live in a world where there is sickness, disease, perils, distress. These things do not help us overcome sin. There are people that do literally beat there body, hoping to yield subjection to Christ. People that think trials are there cross to bear, in that God specifically gave it to them to teach them a lesson, but it's not Christianity.

I am talking about the process that God uses to comform us to his will and purify our faith. Trails ARE there to teach us to rely on God and to be faithful,as he is faithful.There is no Christianity without the cross. Without it all the religion consists of is some self help program based on "positive thinking" about what Jesus did. Such a religion gives lip service to God's will but it does little to transform the inner heart.It is all a Pharisaical outward show. Intense trails cause the pain that brings a humble and contrite heart to the Father's arms. With such a one he will dwell. The more hungry I am the more I will receive from the Father. The cross comes into play when his will meets my will. When I yield to his will and deny mine I have in essence "picked up my cross" . If one does not understand that he understands nothing about biblical Christianity.
The goal of Christianity is one simple thing. That the Father's will might be "done on earth as it is in heaven"

[percho]

I have not read all the threads but I believe the following is also a very good passage on what we do with what God has given us.

And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this [man] to reign over us. And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

He gave the Spirit to set us apart and now we should grown in that Spirit and produce the good works of faith. I think that is what James was speaking of.

[Noeb]

I am talking about the process that God uses to comform us to his will and purify our faith. Trails ARE there to teach us to rely on God and to be faithful,as he is faithful.There is no Christianity without the cross. Without it all the religion consists of is some self help program based on "positive thinking" about what Jesus did. Such a religion gives lip service to God's will but it does little to transform the inner heart.It is all a Pharisaical outward show. Intense trails cause the pain that brings a humble and contrite heart to the Father's arms. With such a one he will dwell. The more hungry I am the more I will receive from the Father. The cross comes into play when his will meets my will. When I yield to his will and deny mine I have in essence "picked up my cross" . If one does not understand that he understands nothing about biblical Christianity.
The goal of Christianity is one simple thing. That the Father's will might be "done on earth as it is in heaven"

But this thread is about sanctification. You have already been born of the Spirit. You have already been crucified with the circumcision of Christ and undergone the operation of God. Those that have, he dwells in. When you yield to his will and deny yours, you have presented your body a sacrifice that is alive from the cross (Romans 6:13, 12:1 -resurrected to walk in newness of life Romans 6:4) for his use. If one does not understand that he understands nothing about biblical Christianity.

[shepherdsword]

But this thread is about sanctification. You have already been born of the Spirit. You have already been crucified with the circumcision of Christ and undergone the operation of God. Those that have, he dwells in. When you yield to his will and deny yours, you have presented your body a sacrifice that is alive from the cross (Romans 6:13, 12:1 -resurrected to walk in newness of life Romans 6:4) for his use. If one does not understand that he understands nothing about biblical Christianity.

The presentation of the body as a living sacrifice is a daily event. Sanctification simply means a "setting apart". Each day I do this with ever increasing ability. I have been crucified with Christ but the presentation of my body is MY reasonable service.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Only I can do this. If Jesus had already done this for me then I would not be commanded to do it..it is only my reasonable service.

1Th 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication.:4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour

Here we see our part in sanctification. To abstain from fleshly lusts and yield to the will of God. This is what sets up apart from the world.

1Pt 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied

Sanctification into OBEDIENCE by the Spirit...once again this invokes a progressive process. Spinning obedience through the Spirit( by a walk IN the Spirit) as legalism is something other than biblical Christianity. The goal is still obedience to the will of God. What the law could not do was empower men to fulfill it....the gospel of grace solves this problem by empowering us to be able to obey through the Spirit. That is how grace is properly defined "God's enabling power"

[Gadgeteer]

Do you hold that sanctification is an event, a process, or both? Please explain and use scriptures to support you position.

It is an event.

"You WERE washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of Jesus and in the Spirit." 1Cor6:11

To call it a one time event would be equivalent to me of something very much akin to OSAS, therefore to me, it is a process.

It is a "done-deal", accomplished in completion by Jesus on the Cross. Yet --- it must be abided-in, as we abide in Jesus; so it functions as a process, in that it must be walked-in each day; but we are fully washed/regenerated, fully justified, and fully sanctified.

If "sanctification" was an increasing process, then we would be making ourselves holy by our own righteousness. I don't think anyone here would be willing to assert that. It's all His righteousness, through our faith.

Romans1:17 is properly translated "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; the just shall live BY faith."

:-)