The Coming of The Son of Man: When?-Moved from ETC

[John 8:32]

John 146,

I agree with you on most things as well . . . And I agree that Jesus' ascension did not occur "after the tribulation of those days" and so on.

But how do you then interpret the phrase in underlined bold in the scripture below?



I mean, does not that phrase in underlined bold above originate from Daniel 7:13-14?

And so, I see also that the "sign of the Son of Man in heaven" has to occur based on this scripture caveat below (in bold):



And so, "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" has to be the destruction of the temple of those days--the temple of Herod.

Jesus, then, would have been in heaven before the destruction of the temple of Herod; thus, the temple destruction confirms that He is KING/PRIEST of our lives.

At least, that's what Matt. 24:30 seems to be saying . . .

Hmmm

Matt. 24
29“But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So His coming was some kind of stealth event that no one recognized? Newspapers in the day had a special type called Second Coming type that was reserved for that event. They haven't used it yet. I would assume that if He came, someone would have realized it...

Rev 1:7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)

Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Which tribe are you judging currently?

John,

Look a bit closer at the passage: How did the Father appoint Jesus a kingdom? What kind of Kingdom does Jesus have, anyway?

(This will help us with these scriptures indeed . . .)

(go to the next post . . .)

[John146]

John 146,

I agree with you on most things as well . . . And I agree that Jesus' ascension did not occur "after the tribulation of those days" and so on.

But how do you then interpret the phrase in underlined bold in the scripture below?

I interpret it to be speaking of His future coming from heaven. The same wording can also refer to His ascension so we have to look at the context in order to see what it is referring to. Since it clearly is not referring to His ascension what does that leave as possibilities?

I mean, does not that phrase in underlined bold above originate from Daniel 7:13-14?

Sure, but that does not mean the phrase can only refer to His ascension. It also refers to His return. We have to determine where He is coming from and going to in any given passage that speaks of a coming of the Son of man.

And so, I see also that the "sign of the Son of Man in heaven" has to occur based on this scripture caveat below (in bold):

But what do you think Matt 24:32-35 is saying exactly? I have a sense that we probably do not agree on that. Remember, the sign has to do with His coming and the end of the age (Matt 24:3). Do you think the end of the age already came, which would mean Matt 13:36-43 and Matt 13:47-50 have already occurred? From what I have seen you post before I never had the sense that you believed Matt 13:36-43 or Matt 13:47-50 were already fulfilled.

And so, "the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" has to be the destruction of the temple of those days--the temple of Herod.

I disagree. I don't believe He was speaking of those days, but rather days after that event in which "there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt 24:24).

Jesus, then, would have been in heaven before the destruction of the temple of Herod; thus, the temple destruction confirms that He is KING/PRIEST of our lives.

I disagree. That event was not what confirms that He is king/priest in our lives. The event that confirmed that He is king/priest of our lives was what first happened on the day of Pentecost following Christ's ascension, which was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

At least, that's what Matt. 24:30 seems to be saying . . .

Not to me.

[billy-brown 2]

Hmmm


So His coming was some kind of stealth event that no one recognized? Newspapers in the day had a special type called Second Coming type that was reserved for that event. They haven't used it yet. I would assume that if He came, someone would have realized it...

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

John,

Please understand that Jesus is coming again physically the second time according to Heb. 9:27-28. Amen.

However, Rev. 1:7 does not seem to refer to the second coming of Christ at all.

Let's look at it:

Rev. 1
7 BEHOLD, HE IS

a) COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and

b) every eye will see Him,

c) even those who pierced Him; and all

d) the tribes of the earth will

e) mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Now, the verse fragments a), b), c), d), and e) in Rev. 1:7 makes reference to several scriptures below:

Matt. 24:29-30
Matt. 26:63-64
Dan. 7:13-14
Psalm 110:1-2
Zech. 12:10
John 19:32-37

And the reference of Matt. 26:63-64 is particularly revealing on this:

Matt. 26:62-66 (some context)
62 The high priest stood up and said to Him, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?”
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, “I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.”
64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy;
66 what do you think?” They answered, “He deserves death!”

Now, the high priest of the days of this passage was Caiaphas, yes? Therefore, Caiaphas had to have seen (or understood) . . . THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN . . . before his passing--this is what Jesus is saying.

Does this make sense?

[billy-brown 2]

I interpret it to be speaking of His future coming from heaven. The same wording can also refer to His ascension so we have to look at the context in order to see what it is referring to. Since it clearly is not referring to His ascension what does that leave as possibilities?

Sure, but that does not mean the phrase can only refer to His ascension. It also refers to His return. We have to determine where He is coming from and going to in any given passage that speaks of a coming of the Son of man.

But what do you think Matt 24:32-35 is saying exactly? I have a sense that we probably do not agree on that. Remember, the sign has to do with His coming and the end of the age (Matt 24:3). Do you think the end of the age already came, which would mean Matt 13:36-43 and Matt 13:47-50 have already occurred? From what I have seen you post before I never had the sense that you believed Matt 13:36-43 or Matt 13:47-50 were already fulfilled.

John146,

The phrase "coming of the Son of Man" can mean two things--as we both know:

a) The Son of Man is returning from Heaven the second time per Heb. 9:27-28.
b) The Son of Man is ascending to receive the Kingdom per Dan. 7:13-14.

And of course, context is key in this. Now, I am not one of those who would say that Matt. 13:36-43 and Matt. 13:47-50 have already occurred; indeed, the end of the age is in our future from now.

(I mean, Christ Jesus will come again the second time bodily to abolish death, yes?)

And so, the key to understanding what Jesus is saying with this phrase "coming of the Son of Man" in Matt. 24:30 has to do with how we interpret this verse below:

Matt. 24
34“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

And aspects of the OP deals with this--and I agree with the text in bold from it:

The first text (Matt 24:34) is without question the one which gets the most press in discussions like these, since it appears towards the end of Jesus’ lengthiest eschatological discourse, and everyone has a special stake in defending their particular view of that passage. When taken at face value, however, Jesus appears to be saying that all of the events forewarned in that discourse (from the beginning of birth pangs to the coming of the son of man) would come to pass within the generation of his audience at that time. Unable to accept this face value reading, some have suggested alternative ways of understanding Jesus’ use of the word “generation”, such as translating it instead as “race” or “nation”. But considering Matthew’s usage of the word throughout his gospel (1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41-42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36), and the other texts which we will consider below, such an alternative translation has little to commend it, and appears to be driven more by a particular ideology than any real interest in accurately representing the original meaning of the text.

Thus, the "sign of the Son of Man in heaven" of Matt. 24:30 would have to occur before that generation passed away. And so, this leaves us with the following possible conclusion: that the phrase " . . . coming on the clouds of heaven . . . " refers simply to the Kingdom rule of Christ at the Father's right hand. Indeed, the temple of Herod would not have been destroyed without that.

So, my question is this: How do you interpret Matt. 24:34? I mean, you have these disagreements below as follows (and so on):

I disagree. I don't believe He was speaking of those days, but rather days after that event in which "there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matt 24:24).

I disagree. That event was not what confirms that He is king/priest in our lives. The event that confirmed that He is king/priest of our lives was what first happened on the day of Pentecost following Christ's ascension, which was the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

And all I am saying is that Jesus would have been in heaven at the right hand of the Father as KING/PRIEST long before the destruction of the temple of Herod and the tribulation of those days. I mean, Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father not many days after His resurrection, yes?

Finally, I agree that the indwelling Holy Spirit which occurred on the day of Pentecost confirms that Jesus is King/Priest. But the destruction of the temple of Herod would have been impossible without the Kingly/Priestly ministry of our Jesus . . . And if we don't agree on that, that's OK . . .

[Matthehitmanhart]

I read your post rather quickly, as i dont have time right now.

A question popped into my mind,

If Nobody but the Father knows the time, then how could Jesus predict that it would be in that generation.?..as if he knew.

Saying that an event will occur within a generation is very different than predicting the exact time. Jesus said that it would occur within that generation, but that he did not know the exact time. There is no contradiction in those two statements.

I dont believe AD 70 was on his mind, because he prophecied the Jews would be exiled after this event and the times of the Gentiles would be apparant over Jerusalem...UNTIL those times come to an end.

That's one way to interpret the "times of the Gentiles". But whether or not you see AD70 in view is not the main issue I'm addressing in the OP. For the sake of argument, let's say that the "coming of the son of man" in the Olivet Discourse refers to the second coming and not Jesus' kingly vindication via the destruction of Jerusalem - that doesn't change the fact that he predicted this "coming" within the expected lifetime of his audience at that time. This is why C.S. Lewis called Matthew 24:34 "the most embarrassing verse in the whole Bible". Now, I do not agree with Lewis' assumption that the "coming of the son of man" must have referred to the second coming, but I appreciate his honesty in admitting the plain sense meaning of the text regarding "this generation". Futurism just isn't an exegetically viable option where that phrase is concerned, IMO, or indeed in any of the other passages mentioned in the OP.

[Matthehitmanhart]

Read that statement in the context of the previous verse...

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Did these things happen?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Seems like if this had already occured, it might have been noteworthy enough that someone would have recorded it.

The question which the OP is addressing is not whether or not these things did in fact occur, but what Jesus meant when he said that "this generation will not pass away till all these things take place". Assuming a literal reading of Jesus' cosmic language (which is used metaphorically throughout the OT prophets) and then saying that those events did not occur is not a sufficient reason for changing the most natural meaning of "this generation" to say something entirely different.

[Matthehitmanhart]

Israel and Judah are two different nations. Specifically, Israel is Ephraim and Manasseh...

Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

There is a time when the two will be joined together again, but it has not happened yet...

Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

David is not ruling over the united tribes at ths time. Do you really think that what we call Israel today is fulfilling the latter half of verse 24?

Now do you think that Christians have had to flee from city to city in Ephraim and Manasseh due to persecution?

So you don't think that Jesus was speaking to the disciples about the journey of announcing the kingdom which he was sending them at that moment, to "go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt 10:6)?

It was a vision, continue reading into the beginning of Chapter 17...

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Now read verse 9...

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

I'm confused... So do you think that that vision alone fulfills Jesus' prediction about the coming of the kingdom of the son of man?

nervertheless comes from...

G575
ἀπό
apo
apo'
A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

G737
ἄρτι
arti
ar'-tee
Adverb from a derivative of G142 (compare G740) through the idea of suspension; just now: - this day (hour), hence [-forth], here [-after], hither [-to], (even) now, (this) present.

Albert Barnes says that "nevertheless" should be translated...

Nevertheless - This word should have been translated: “moreover or furthermore.” What follows is designed to explain and give confirmation to what he had said.

What's your point?

[Stormcrow]

And now the question presses: Was Jesus simply wrong in his prediction about the coming of the son of man? Or have we simply misunderstood it?

Oh, I think 21st century evangelicals have very much misunderstood it. Very much so. By the way, one of the passages that speaks directly to the "generation" issue is in Matthew 23, when Christ is confronting the scribes and Pharisees:

Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not! See, your house is left to you desolate. Matthew 23:34-38 (ESV)

His "second coming" - when He takes the kingdom away from those who killed Him and the messengers He sent - is inexorably linked to His judgment upon that generation (Matthew 21:33-46).

By comparison, read this passage from II Chronicles 36 to see Christ's words in context:

The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.

Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.

All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.

Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles. Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete. 2 Chronicles 36:15-21 (NASB)

Jesus sent His apostles to the House of Israel where they were beaten, stoned, killed, and persecuted from one city to another. They were treated with the same contempt that the prophets God sent to them were treated. And just as Israel and Judah were judged by God for their refusal to heed the prophets He sent to them, and were thus handed over to the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar, so, too, Judea and Jerusalem were judged by the "lamb that was slain" for refusing to heed the gospel His messengers brought to them. Only this time, they were handed over to the legions of Rome under Titus Flavius, which destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple exactly 657 years to the day (9th Av) after the Babylonians sacked it.

The "second coming of Christ" was a coming of judgment and it happened in 70 AD.

I'm writing a research paper on this very thing right now that I hope to turn into a book.

Matt...you've only begun to scratch the surface of what all this means with your original post. There is so much more evidence to support this view that space here does not permit me to present. PM me on the board if you want more.

[Stormcrow]

Oh, and one more thing:

Matthew 24:9 is a reiteration of Matthew 10:16-23 and Matthew 23:34-36, and is paralled in Mark 13:9-13, Luke 21:12-19 and John 15:18-25, 16:1-4,33. When taken together, especially the passages in Matthew 23 and 24, and Luke 21, you will see that this "tribulation of the apostles" (of which John was a part in Revelation 1:9) is both a sign and a cause of the "great tribulation" that befalls Jerusalem, seen in Matthew 24:21.

In other words, there are two tribulations mentioned in Matthew 24 and the first (verse 9) is both a sign and a cause of the second (verse 21). The "great tribulation" of Jerusalem leads to its desolation (utter destruction), prophesied by Christ in Matthew 23:38 and Matthew 24:1-2.

His second coming is juxtaposed with this destruction by the words "immediately after" in Matthew 24:29.

Finally, and this is the point of the research paper I'm writing, this view harmonizes perfectly with the book of Revelation, whose first 7 chapters deal with the tribulation of Christ's messengers and His church, while chapters 8-20 deal with the outpouring of God's wrath (the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21) upon Jerusalem and Judea.

That's all for now.

[Stormcrow]

OK, just one more thing...

Revelation 5 tells us whom it is that brings judgment upon Jerusalem.

Revelation 6 tells us when these events begin!

Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, "Come." I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. Revelation 6:1-2 (NASB)

The rider of the white horse here is the Holy Spirit, whom Christ sent to earth after He is presented to the Father in heaven. The Holy Spirit arrives on earth with the first Pentecost after Christ's resurrection, and with it the apostles are empowered with the same Holy Spirit Christ had all the fullness of during His earthly ministry. It's this same Spirit that makes them bold and draws the attention of the Sanhedrin, who thought they had put this "Jesus movement" down.

Shortly after the Holy Spirit's arrival, Stephen is stoned to death: the first of Christ's messengers to be martyred for the testimony of Jesus. The cause and sign of the end of Jerusalem had begun.

When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come." And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him. Revelation 6:3-4 (NASB)

The rider of the red horse here - war - represents the civil war that erupted within Jerusalem's walls when three rebellious factions arose to try to take control of the city. During the course of this war (started in 66 AD), in which thousands were killed, one of the factions destroyed the city's grain supplies; supplies that would have seen the people through even the longest siege reduced the city to almost immediate famine: a famine that was exploited by Titus and the Romans when they arrived.

When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come." I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard something like a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not damage the oil and the wine." Revelation 6:5-6 (NASB)

With Jerusalem's internal stores of grain gone, the Romans allowed pilgrims for the Passover in the spring of 70 AD to enter the city but refused to let them leave, sealing them inside and turning Jerusalem's fortified walls into a prison. With no food, thousands of people starved to death and, in the case of one particularly gruesome account of the famine's effect on the people, Josephus tells us of a woman who killed her own infant and roasted his corpse for food, thus fulfilling these words from Matthew:

"But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! Matthew 24:19 (NASB)

The pale green horse's rider that follows is the culmination of the civil war, famine, and disease that befell Jerusalem: the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:21...

When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come." I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth. Revelation 6:7-8 (NASB)

The word "earth" here does not mean the terrestrial sphere we know from satellite photos. It means "land", as in the "land" of Judea. It is used this way in Revelation 1:7...

Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, even those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land. Yes! Amen! Revelation 1:7 (YLT)

Which is taken from Zechariah 12:

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

On that day the mourning in Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hadad-rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. The land shall mourn, each family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; Zechariah 12:10-12 (ESV)

"The land" is used repeatedly in reference to the land of Israel. It still is, after all, called the "Holy Land.

By the way, the 5th seal of Revelation 6? The souls under the altar there are the souls of Christ's "prophets, wise men, and scribes" He sent to the House of Israel. The vengeance they seek? It was promised here:

"so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth...Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." Matthew 23:35-36 (ESV)

Revelation harmonizes perfectly with the gospels.

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

When did He appear? I must have missed it. Have I been judged yet?

Matt. 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The generation in which all these things come to pass…

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Didn’t happen in 70 AD (did happen in type in 168 BC, but Jesus is referring to it in future tense.)

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

What WMD’s did they have that would cause ALL FLESH to die? This only became possible at or around the mid 1950’s when the US and Soviet Union had enough nuclear weapons to destroy all life off the earth.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The meaning kinda changes when we read all the verses concerning “that generation”



When the generation when all these things occur is extant, then it will not pass away until Christ returns and rule on the earth just as He said He would.
And as you say…

John,

Matt. 24:34 is the key verse with respect to understanding the timing of the Matt. 24 passages in your quote above.

Indeed, it takes a lot of courage to let Jesus speak.

And Daniel 7:13-14 is an important passage in all of this, because if Jesus received a Kingdom from the Ancient of Days and so on per that passage, then the only time that He could have received it is when he ascended up on high after His resurrection and so on.

After all, His Second Coming is in our future from now, yes?

Now, the tribulation of those days as well as the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple of those days happened after His ascension (see Matt. 24:15-34). This means that Jesus became KING/PRIEST at the right hand of the Father before those events.

Thus, Jesus made the astonishing statements based on Dan. 7:13-14 in Luke 22:67-70.

Luke 22
66 When it was day, the Council of elders of the people assembled, both chief priests and scribes, and they led Him away to their council chamber, saying,
67 “If You are the Christ, tell us.” But He said to them, “If I tell you, you will not believe;
68 and if I ask a question, you will not answer.
69 “But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD.”
70 And they all said, “Are You the Son of God, then?” And He said to them, “Yes, I am.”

Wow.

Therefore, if Jesus is not now seated at the right hand of the power of God (i.e., from then on to forever), then He is not the King of the Kingdom of God right now. And apparently, the events of Matt. 24:15-33 required Kingdom power from Christ, because He became KING/PRIEST before those events--and as a result of the vindication of the Ancient of Days for all that he suffered at Calvary for you and I . . .

[billy-brown 2]

Yep, I saw it.



You missed the rest of it...

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.



How about this passage...

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He is currently set down with the Father in the Father's throne. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne. When?

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

When He returns as witnessed by Dan 2:44

Jesus also knew what Dan 2:44 said because He inspired it to be written.

Not necessary for me.

John,

When did this happen?

Psalm 45
6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

7You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

Did it not occur as mentioned here below? Look carefully:

Heb. 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”

7And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”

8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

Yep.

After Jesus purged our sins, He took the forever Kingdom of God, and ascended to the right hand of the Father on a FOREVER throne in heaven. And if Jesus is not sitting there right now, He can never return the second time. Why?

Well, because His return the second time (per Heb. 9:27-28) features the abolishing of death:

I Cor. 15
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

And of course, we are seated with Him right now already:

Eph. 2
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

[Stormcrow]

After all, His Second Coming is in our future from now, yes?

His second coming occurred "immediately after the tribulation of those days." His words, not mine:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth [literally "land" (Zech.12:10-14)] will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (ESV)

"Tribulation of those days": tribulation of Jerusalem (civil war, famine, disease, the Roman siege) that leads to its desolation (destruction).

"...sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

Every time God judges a nation in the Old Testament, the warnings of His impending judgment come with this language:

The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw. Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. Isaiah 13:1,9-10 (ESV)

This was fulfilled in the overthrow of the Babylonian kingdom by the Medes, as recorded in Daniel 5:

That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old. Daniel 5:30-31 (ESV)

This same language is used by the prophet Ezekiel to prophesy of Egypt's impending defeat by the Babylonians:

"Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him..."And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light. "All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land," Declares the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 32:7-8 (NASB)

This was fulfilled in the defeat of Pharoah Neco's armies at Carchemish:

To Egypt, concerning the army of Pharaoh Neco king of Egypt, which was by the Euphrates River at Carchemish, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon defeated in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah: Jeremiah 46:2 (NASB)

Finally, this language appears several time in the book of Joel when he prophesies of the impending judgment of Judah at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar:

Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn is spread over the mountains, So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it To the years of many generations. Joel 2:1-2 (NASB)

(It's important to note that Jesus even quotes Daniel, Joel and Ezekiel when He says of the "great tribulation" of Jerusalem, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:21 (NASB). Ezekiel writes the same thing prophesying of the coming destruction of Jerusalem: And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again. Ezekiel 5:9 (ESV). And Daniel writes this: “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1 (ESV))

This prophecy from Joel 2 was fulfilled - as noted in an earlier post - as seen in 2Chronicles 36:

Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. 2 Chronicles 36:17 (NASB)

In every one of these instances, and others like it, we know that the stars did not literally fall from the sky. We know that the sun wasn't literally darkened. We do know this language is metaphor for socio-political upheaval on a national scale brought about - according to the prophets - by the judgment of God upon a nation. Christ's use of this language in Matthew 24:29 to describe the coming judgment and destruction of Jerusalem is no different than the manner in which the Old Testament prophets used it when prophesying of the destruction of Pharoah's armies and of Judah and Jerusalem at the hands of Babylon, and of Babylon's usurpation as an empire at the hands of the Medes.

I will explain Matthew 24:30 in the context of Old Testament prophetic language in my next post.

[Stormcrow]

and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory; Matthew 24:30 (YLT)

"...and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven..."

People - even I - have misread this phrase for years. We have conflated it with I Thessalonians 4:16 to mean this:

"For the Lord himself will descend from heaven..."

This is not what the verse in Matthew 24:30 means! Christ is telling His disciples there that there will be a sign that the Son of Man is in heaven, at the right hand of God, and that no one will be able to mistake it for anything other than what it is: that Christ has ascended to His throne and is seated in judgment upon Jerusalem!

The sign that Jesus is in heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father is revealed in the events that unfold surrounding the "great tribulation" of Jerusalem! John even shows us the sign that the Son of Man is in heaven - in power - in Revelation 5 and 6 with the unsealing of the scroll of judgment upon Jerusalem!

"...and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast..."

They will "smite the breast" because they see the sign that the one they crucified is coming in judgment upon them via the legions of Rome, and there is nothing they can do about it. “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Luke 21:20 (ESV)

"and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory..."

"Coming upon the clouds of heaven" is a phrase used to describe the coming of God in judgment against a nation in the Old Testament:

An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. Isaiah 19:1 (ESV)

In the case of Daniel 7, it refers to Christ receiving His kingdom which He told His enemies that the Father would take away from them:

“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:13-14 (ESV)

Now, put the words of Daniel - above - in context with the words of Christ from Matthew 21:

Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: “ ‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.” Matthew 21:42-44 (ESV)

His second coming was to take the kingdom of God away from the apostate priesthood of Israel and present it to the Father who made Christ the head over it. That kingdom is what He established on earth as His church: believing Jews and Gentiles formed together as a house - His Temple - growing together in the Lord.

This theme appears throughout the New Testament, especially in the letters of Peter and Paul.

So much more to write...so little time.