The Coming of The Son of Man: When?-Moved from ETC

[BroRog]

The first text (Matt 24:34) is without question the one which gets the most press in discussions like these, since it appears towards the end of Jesus’ lengthiest eschatological discourse, and everyone has a special stake in defending their particular view of that passage. When taken at face value, however, Jesus appears to be saying that all of the events forewarned in that discourse (from the beginning of birth pangs to the coming of the son of man) would come to pass within the generation of his audience at that time. Unable to accept this face value reading, some have suggested alternative ways of understanding Jesus’ use of the word “generation”, such as translating it instead as “race” or “nation”. But considering Matthew’s usage of the word throughout his gospel (1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41-42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36), and the other texts which we will consider below, such an alternative translation has little to commend it, and appears to be driven more by a particular ideology than any real interest in accurately representing the original meaning of the text.

I disagree with your view that the term "generation" indicates a moment in time, i.e. a time period. Your interpretation isn't taking the term "generation" at face value, which is a word that indicates all the people born and living around the time period, not the average period of time during which children grow up and have children of their own. When Jesus uses the term, he refers to people, not to the passage of time. Time isn't "evil and adulterous and craves after a sign." People are "evil and adulterous and craves after a sign." Time isn't going to stand in judgment with the Queen of the South; People are going to stand in judgment with the Queen of the South. Time is not unbelieving and perverted; people are unbelieving and perverted. This "generation" refers to people, not time.

The second text (Matt 10:23) has received less attention than the first, but it places the timing of Jesus’ expectation in an even clearer light. The disciples will not even finish going through all the towns of Israel before the son of man comes.

Mathew 10:23 isn't an escatological statement. In this context we find that Jesus has sent his apostles out to prepare various cities for his ministry. He intends to preach in each of these cities a few months later. The apostles will go out in advance of Jesus and he will come later in the year to preach in their cities.

The third text (Matt 16:27-28) only solidifies this impression further. There are some of Jesus’ hearers who will live to see the kingdom of the son of man, when he comes in the glory of his father and rewards everyone for their deeds.

Considering the first verse, this leaves us with a conundrum, depending on what Jesus means by the word "until". When we hear the word "until" we hear,

Until = "condition 'A' will continue to exist up to a particular point in time 'T'"

Under this meaning of the word "until", the emphasis falls on the set of conditions in view, that is, the current generation will continue in existence during the time when the course of events known as "all these things" takes place. "This Generation" will not pass away during that time. However, under this meaning of the word "until", "this generation may never pass away.

But according to your interpretation of Matthew 24:34, Jesus is actually saying (I think)

Until = "condition 'A' will be coterminous with condition 'B'"

That is, the course of events he describes will take place before the generation passes away. None of the events will take place after the generation has expired. But eventually the generation will expire. Implied (seemingly in your view) is the correlate point "this generation will not pass away until time T, but it will pass away after that. But if I were to say, "the clock will continue to tick until the clock strikes 12" it might be the case that the clock will continue to tick even after the clock strikes 12. All I want to say is that the clock won't stop ticking at least as long as it takes for the clock to strike 12. I'm not saying that it won't continue after that. I'm not necessarily saying that once the clock strikes 12 the clock will stop ticking.

“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

Jesus is saying that the generation will not end during the course of events known as "all these things" but he isn't necessarily meaning to imply that "this generation" will pass away at all. In fact, given that he previously said that his own people would experience a time of great tribulation such that if the duration of time were not shortened, no flesh would be saved alive, his point seems to be that his people (or this generation if you like) will survive beyond the course of events known as "all these things". His emphasis seems to be on the fact that his people will survive after these things, not on the fact that these things will take place during the near future.

Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.”

Even here, the emphasis is on the fact that some will be around to see the son of man coming in his kingdom, and they may never taste death after that.

[Stormcrow]

Your interpretation isn't taking the term "generation" at face value, which is a word that indicates all the people born and living around the time period...

He covered that definition with the statement you highlighted from the original post:

"Jesus appears to be saying that all of the events forewarned in that discourse (from the beginning of birth pangs to the coming of the son of man) would come to pass within the generation of his audience at that time.

If someone in 1933 had told the people living at that time that "this generation shall not pass until all these things take place", and then they told them that there will be atom bombs, jet aircraft, space travel, portable phones the size of a deck of playing cards, and color television, the speaker is addressing the people of that time period with a vision of the future that will all come to pass before the last living member of that generation dies. The generation that lived in 1933 is almost passed, and yet everything that they may have heard in this hypothetical scenario happened just as they were told. Some things happened sooner (a-bomb), some things happened later (cell phones), but everything they were told happened while that generation still lived.

Jesus did exactly this same thing: He addressed the people of a given time (His generation) with a vision of the future that many of them would live to see fulfilled. Some of the things He prophesied happened sooner (persecution of His messengers) some of them happened later (fall of Jerusalem as the result in His "coming in judgment" against it) but it all happened before the generation He addressed had passed.

There is no other way to interpret these passages which He made clear not only to His disciples/apostles, (Matthew 10, 16) but to Caiaphas, the Sahedrin, and the scribes and Pharisees themselves (Matthew 23, 26.)

Furthermore, every writer of the New Testament who wrote on the subject wrote with the expectation that Christ's coming was near.

Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Philippians 4:5 (NASB)

You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. James 5:8-9 (NASB)

The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 1 Peter 4:7 (NASB)

The "coming of the Lord" (seen in other passages as "the day of the Lord" or "the day of Christ") is seen by all these apostolic writers as conjoined with "the end of all things." We know "all things" didn't end, so what did?

The "old world order" as they had known it was coming to an end: that "old world order" that was codified in the Law of Moses, personified in the priesthood, and embodied in the Temple and its sacrificial rites, rituals, and festivals, all of which were but a shadow of the substance of Christ.

[billy-brown 2]

His second coming occurred "immediately after the tribulation of those days." His words, not mine:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth [literally "land" (Zech.12:10-14)] will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (ESV)

"Tribulation of those days": tribulation of Jerusalem (civil war, famine, disease, the Roman siege) that leads to its desolation (destruction).

"...sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

Every time God judges a nation in the Old Testament, the warnings of His impending judgment come with this language:

The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw. Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. Isaiah 13:1,9-10 (ESV)

This was fulfilled in the overthrow of the Babylonian kingdom by the Medes, as recorded in Daniel 5:

That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old. Daniel 5:30-31 (ESV)

This same language is used by the prophet Ezekiel to prophesy of Egypt's impending defeat by the Babylonians:

"Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him..."And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light. "All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land," Declares the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 32:7-8 (NASB)

This was fulfilled in the defeat of Pharoah Neco's armies at Carchemish:

To Egypt, concerning the army of Pharaoh Neco king of Egypt, which was by the Euphrates River at Carchemish, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon defeated in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah: Jeremiah 46:2 (NASB)

Finally, this language appears several time in the book of Joel when he prophesies of the impending judgment of Judah at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar:

Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn is spread over the mountains, So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it To the years of many generations. Joel 2:1-2 (NASB)

(It's important to note that Jesus even quotes Daniel, Joel and Ezekiel when He says of the "great tribulation" of Jerusalem, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:21 (NASB). Ezekiel writes the same thing prophesying of the coming destruction of Jerusalem: And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again. Ezekiel 5:9 (ESV). And Daniel writes this: “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1 (ESV))

This prophecy from Joel 2 was fulfilled - as noted in an earlier post - as seen in 2Chronicles 36:

Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. 2 Chronicles 36:17 (NASB)

In every one of these instances, and others like it, we know that the stars did not literally fall from the sky. We know that the sun wasn't literally darkened. We do know this language is metaphor for socio-political upheaval on a national scale brought about - according to the prophets - by the judgment of God upon a nation. Christ's use of this language in Matthew 24:29 to describe the coming judgment and destruction of Jerusalem is no different than the manner in which the Old Testament prophets used it when prophesying of the destruction of Pharoah's armies and of Judah and Jerusalem at the hands of Babylon, and of Babylon's usurpation as an empire at the hands of the Medes.

I will explain Matthew 24:30 in the context of Old Testament prophetic language in my next post.

Hi Stormcrow,

The second coming of Christ features the abolishing of death; which has not happened.

Therefore, the second coming of Christ is in our future from now--as taught here:

I Cor. 15
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

And notice how death is abolished below:

I Cor. 15
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

Yep . . .

[Stormcrow]

The second coming of Christ features the abolishing of death; which has not happened.

Why would Paul write this?

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins...But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus... Ephesians 2:1,4-6 (NASB)

Was death not abolished in you the moment you believed?

If so, what else must Christ do that He has not already done?

but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:10 (NASB)

I think I Corinthians 15, like I Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24, has been egregiously misunderstood by 21st century evangelicals and "fundies."

[Matthehitmanhart]

I disagree with your view that the term "generation" indicates a moment in time, i.e. a time period. Your interpretation isn't taking the term "generation" at face value, which is a word that indicates all the people born and living around the time period, not the average period of time during which children grow up and have children of their own. When Jesus uses the term, he refers to people, not to the passage of time. Time isn't "evil and adulterous and craves after a sign." People are "evil and adulterous and craves after a sign." Time isn't going to stand in judgment with the Queen of the South; People are going to stand in judgment with the Queen of the South. Time is not unbelieving and perverted; people are unbelieving and perverted. This "generation" refers to people, not time.

It won't do any good trying to play "people" off against "time". Throughout Matthew's gospel, "generation" refers to the people of a specific period of time. This is clearly the case even from the very first occurrence of the word:

"So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations ; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations ; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations." - Matthew 1:17

The word "generation", repeated here several times, does not refer to "people" in general without reference to time, but rather to the people of specific periods of time.

Mathew 10:23 isn't an escatological statement. In this context we find that Jesus has sent his apostles out to prepare various cities for his ministry. He intends to preach in each of these cities a few months later. The apostles will go out in advance of Jesus and he will come later in the year to preach in their cities.

Could be the case, except that it's echoing Daniel 7:13, which is eschatological.

Even here, the emphasis is on the fact that some will be around to see the son of man coming in his kingdom, and they may never taste death after that.

Are you suggesting that Jesus wasn't actually referring to those who were standing there at the time, even though he says "some of you who are standing here..."?

[billy-brown 2]

Why would Paul write this?

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins...But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus... Ephesians 2:1,4-6 (NASB)

Was death not abolished in you the moment you believed?

If so, what else must Christ do that He has not already done?

but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:10 (NASB)

I think I Corinthians 15, like I Thessalonians 4 and Matthew 24, has been egregiously misunderstood by 21st century evangelicals and "fundies."

Stormcrow,

The abolishing of death for the people of faith means simply that the physical body of the saints will be made immortal when Christ returns--just as Jesus' body has been made immortal when He rose from the dead (as taught in II Tim. 1:10).

Paul is teaching about all of this below:

I Cor. 15
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

and here as well:

I Cor. 15
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

And of course, Paul teaches similarly here below as well:

Rom. 8
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Yes?

[Stormcrow]

The abolishing of death for the people of faith means simply that the physical body of the saints will be made immortal when Christ returns--just as Jesus' body has been made immortal when He rose from the dead (as taught in II Tim. 1:10).

That's not what Paul wrote. That's not what you claimed in the post to which I replied. Here is what you claimed:

The second coming of Christ features the abolishing of death; which has not happened.

To which I replied with Paul's clear and unequivocal statement:

but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death [past tense] and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:10 (NASB)

Do you presume to suggest Paul was wrong with regards to the power of the gospel?

[billy-brown 2]

That's not what Paul wrote. That's not what you claimed in the post to which I replied. Here is what you claimed:



To which I replied with Paul's clear and unequivocal statement:

but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death [past tense] and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:10 (NASB)

Do you presume to suggest Paul was wrong with regards to the power of the gospel?

Stormcrow,

It is one thing for Christ to abolish death, but the Lord has a divine order to this, yes? Notice below:

I Cor. 15
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23a But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, . . .

Yep.

And since Jesus has been raised from the dead immortal, He is the "first fruits" (I Cor. 15:20) of what will happen to the people of faith when He returns again. This is what Paul is suggesting; notice below as well:

I Cor. 15
23b . . . after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, (will be raised unto bodily immortality)
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Indeed, the resurrection of Christ from the dead allowed death to be abolished. However, Christ is the "first fruits" only; you and I will receive the reward of bodily immortality at the second coming of Christ; the last enemy will thereby be abolished for the saints (who would be the "second fruits"--if you will).

Do you see what I mean?

[Stormcrow]

Indeed, the resurrection of Christ from the dead allowed death to be abolished. However, Christ is the "first fruits" only; you and I will receive the reward of bodily immortality at the second coming of Christ; the last enemy will thereby be abolished for the saints (who would be the "second fruits"--if you will).

Do you see what I mean?

No. That's not the gospel I received. Christ abolished death period. When He did, those who believe are raised with Him and seated in the heavenlies where He is. Period. As that is the case, I again argue that people do not have a proper understanding of Paul's position in either I Corinthians or I Thessalonians regarding the resurrection.

[Matthehitmanhart]

Hey guys, I'm guessing the mods would prefer that a discussion like this be taken to Contro... but besides that, you've veered pretty far from the topic of the OP.

[BroRog]

It won't do any good trying to play "people" off against "time". Throughout Matthew's gospel, "generation" refers to the people of a specific period of time. This is clearly the case even from the very first occurrence of the word:

"So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations ; from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations ; and from the deportation to Babylon to the Messiah, fourteen generations." - Matthew 1:17

The word "generation", repeated here several times, does not refer to "people" in general without reference to time, but rather to the people of specific periods of time.

Granted. But it appears to me, given your explanation, that you believe Jesus' use of the phrase "this generation" indicates a period of time as you say in the following quote:

Jesus appears to be saying that all of the events forewarned in that discourse (from the beginning of birth pangs to the coming of the son of man) would come to pass within the generation of his audience at that time.

You seem to understand Jesus to be answering the question, "How long will these events last?" with the answer being, "not longer than one generation." The alternative view, the one I share, understands Jesus to be answering the question, "Will this people survive all these things?", with the answer being, "this generation will NOT pass away."

How we hear the word "until" can affect how we understand what Jesus has said and might reflect the difference between these views. Is Jesus saying, for instance, "some of the people living today will be alive after all these things take place. And then, afterward, the remaining people from this generation will die"? This Generation will not pass away until 'X' but then it will pass away? Or is Jesus using the term "until" in the sense of "while" as if to say, "this generation will not pass away during the time when these things are taking place. And it will continue even past that point.

Could be the case, except that it's echoing Daniel 7:13, which is eschatological.

What? Are you saying this simply because both passages mention the word "come" or "coming?"

Are you suggesting that Jesus wasn't actually referring to those who were standing there at the time, even though he says "some of you who are standing here..."?

No, I'm suggesting that the term "until" does not necessarily carry with it the concept of a "before" and an "after" Jesus doesn't necessarily mean to say, "BEFORE you die, you will see me come in my kingdom and AFTER that, you will die." I believe he means, instead, "some of you standing here will never taste death period." and by "taste death" he doesn't mean they will never die; he means that death will not be their final condition. He uses the expression the same way in John 8:52

The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and You say, "If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste of death."

It would seem that Jesus uses the phrase "taste of death" to indicate the second death or the final death.

Secondly, since Jesus places the initial condition in the negative, rather than the positive, he is using the term "until" to indicate that the initial condition never changes. For instance, if the soldier tells his wife, "my love for you will never change until I return home from war" he doesn't meant to say that his love WILL change once he returns home. What he means to say is, "during the time between now and when I get home, my love for you will never change." When Jesus says, "this generation will NOT pass away until all these things take place," he doesn't mean to suggest that this generation will pass away after that. And he isn't saying, "the duration of time in which these things must take place is one generation." He uses a negative condition because he wants to say, "this generation will not pass away" period.

[billy-brown 2]

Hey guys, I'm guessing the mods would prefer that a discussion like this be taken to Contro... but besides that, you've veered pretty far from the topic of the OP.

Thanks Hitman,

To answer your question here from the OP:

Did Jesus believe that this “coming” (whatever that might refer to) would happen within the lifetime of many of those alive during his ministry?

I might say that His Kingdom rule did occur within the lifetime of many of those alive. In that case, the phrase " . . . coming on the clouds of heaven . . ." is referring simply to " . . . sitting at the right hand of the Power . . . " or similar; that's an ascension to the right hand of the Father per Psalm 110.

However; that Kingdom rule makes it possible for Him to return to handover the Kingdom to His Father at the end of the age. And one initiative of Christ here is to abolish death through providing bodily resurrection for the faithful per I Cor. 15.

In other words, Rev. 1:7 (for example) refers to the Rule of Christ per Dan. 7:13-14, while Rev. 1:8 refers to His second coming:

Rev. 1
7BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

Great thread and OP, by the way . . .

[billy-brown 2]

No. That's not the gospel I received. Christ abolished death period. When He did, those who believe are raised with Him and seated in the heavenlies where He is. Period. As that is the case, I again argue that people do not have a proper understanding of Paul's position in either I Corinthians or I Thessalonians regarding the resurrection.

Stormcrow,

I agree that Christ abolished death.

However, those who are of faith have been promised an immortal physical body; this is called the redemption of the body by Paul in Rom. 8. And we were saved in this hope of receiving that when Christ returns:

Rom. 8
22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.*
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.*
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?*
25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

I feel that you need the "redemption of our body" to inherit the Kingdom of God fully--at least, this is what Paul teaches here (in bold):

I Cor. 15
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Finally, notice when death is truly abolished below:

I Cor. 15
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

And Christ is the "first fruits" of all this; because He is bodily immortal; we will be immortal bodily also--but at His (second) coming. And that occurs at the end--the end of the age:

I Cor. 15
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

[Matthehitmanhart]

Granted. But it appears to me, given your explanation, that you believe Jesus' use of the phrase "this generation" indicates a period of time as you say in the following quote:

As I said, quite simply, it indicates the people of a particular period of time. And that's exactly what I said in that quote.

You seem to understand Jesus to be answering the question, "How long will these events last?" with the answer being, "not longer than one generation." The alternative view, the one I share, understands Jesus to be answering the question, "Will this people survive all these things?", with the answer being, "this generation will NOT pass away."

No, actually, I understand Jesus to be answering the question the disciples actually asked: "When will these things be?" Answer: "This generation will not pass away until all these things take place." By contrast, the question you see him answering is an insertion of your own, which not only has no precedence in the text, but which makes absolute nonsense out of the parable from fig tree which leads straight into the statement in question. The whole train of thought goes like this: "When you see... then you know that the summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, then you know that it is near, at the doors! And truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place." If you are right, and in the last clause Jesus is answering the unasked question "Will these people survive these things", then he has completely changed the subject from the preceding context about the "nearness" of "these things".

How we hear the word "until" can affect how we understand what Jesus has said and might reflect the difference between these views. Is Jesus saying, for instance, "some of the people living today will be alive after all these things take place. And then, afterward, the remaining people from this generation will die"? This Generation will not pass away until 'X' but then it will pass away? Or is Jesus using the term "until" in the sense of "while" as if to say, "this generation will not pass away during the time when these things are taking place. And it will continue even past that point.

This is all moot in light of the point I made above.

What? Are you saying this simply because both passages mention the word "come" or "coming?"

And because of every other instance in which Jesus speaks of the "coming of the son of man".

[Stormcrow]

However, those who are of faith have been promised an immortal physical body; this is called the redemption of the body by Paul in Rom. 8. And we were saved in this hope of receiving that when Christ returns

Was Paul a Jew? Were all the writers of the New Testament (except Luke) Jews? Was the early church composed mostly of Jews?

So when James writes, for instance, James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings. James 1:1 (NASB)

Is he writing to those of the House of Israel (generically speaking, "Jews"), or is he addressing Gentiles?

Now, if the answer to all of these questions is "yes", then tell me - based on this - to whom the promise of a "physical resurrection" was made:

“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. [Matt.24:21] But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.[Matt. 25:31-46, Rev.20:12-15] And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. [Rev.22:10, 1Pet. 4:7, James 5:7-9 and others] Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.” Daniel 12:1-4 (ESV)

Who were "Daniel's people", why was it made specifically to them, and was there a resurrection of the "first fruits" mentioned in Matthew 27?

Finally, if Christ "abolished death" as you now admit, and the gospel had been preached to "all the world" as Paul wrote (Romans 1:8, 10:18, 16:26, Col. 1:6,23, 1Tim. 3:16), then all of the conditions for His coming were met in the first century AD, just as He said they would be.

With all that in mind: the promise of a physical resurrection made to Daniel's people, the "first fruits" raised at His resurrection (Matt.27:52-53) the gospel having gone out to the entire world, and Christ's sacrifice having "abolished death", please re-read the passages from 1 Corinthians 15 and see them in the light of all these other things that had already happened.

Again, I submit to you that in light of all this other evidence, the traditional evangelical/fundamentalist reading of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4, wherein the promise of a physical resurrection is seen more than 2,000 into the future, is wrong. But don't take my word for it: look at the references I provided.