The Coming of The Son of Man: When?-Moved from ETC

[billy-brown 2]

Let us not forget the making of a covenant with God as one of the purposes.

Hebrews 9:16-18
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.


And I don't have a problem with using 'abolished' as being annulled, inoperative.

Yep.

But the New Testament is unique in that it requires the resurrection and ascension of the testator. Why? Because the testator is administering the new testament from heaven as High Priest and King at the same time--and in a never ending eternal tabernacle.

In other words, Jesus will never die again, because He is eternal physically:

Heb. 8
1Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “SEE,” He says, “THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.”
6But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Rev. 1
17When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
18and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Yep.

Indeed, Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant--as King:

I Tim. 6
13I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

and Priest:

Heb. 7
18For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness
19(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.
20And inasmuch as it was not without an oath

21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
“THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
‘YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER’”);

22so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Yes?

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)

So when where death by the law of sin to be abolished? It would be at the same time that the heavens and earth passed away. If we understand what Jesus, Peter and Paul all taught it would relate to the time in which the first earthly tabernacle would be replaced by the true heavenly tabernacle of God. According to Hebrews 8 that time was soon coming to pass. So if no one has followed close enough I would say it would be telling us by the passing away of the old covenant of flesh and blood of temple worship will be the time when 'death' is finally abolished in the year 70AD.

Hope this helps.

Hi Beck,

I cannot imagine that death was "abolished" in the year 70AD.

Now of course, we know that Herod's Temple/Jerusalem was destroyed in AD70; but we have to go to an historian to find that out--and not the Bible.

Indeed, no one could have known the exact hour or day of the destruction of the Temple of Herod/Jerusalem, because all Jesus said was this below:

Matt. 24
34“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

And so, does this statement of Jesus in Matt. 24:34 (no matter how anyone understands the word "generation" and so on) provide enough information for a precise dating of the destruction of the Temple of Herod/Jerusalem? The answer has to be no.

And besides all this, Paul indicated that Jesus "abolished death" in the context of the verses below:

II Tim. 1
8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,

9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

11for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

12For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

Yep.

And how did Jesus "abolish" death? Well, He rose from the dead incorruptible; this was way before AD 70, yes?

Also, Paul was appointed a preacher and teacher of these things, and was willing to suffer thereby. And apparently, there is a reward for the suffering, because Paul indicates that he "entrusted to Him" something "until that day" and so on. Now, what day was that? Let's have Paul tell us:

Rom. 2
5But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Yep.

And notice the two outcomes from Rom. 2:5-8 above:

1) . . . those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
2) . . . those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

That's all--eternal life and immortality, or wrath and indignation. Now, doesn't this sound familiar? Here we are:

Matt. 13
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

(go to the next post . . .)

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)

John 11:25-26
²⁵ Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
²⁶ And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Romans 8:1-2
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.


You do see the two different laws, Right? One by the Spirit (law of the Spirit sets free unto life) the other by sin and death (law of the carnal Flesh unto death). In reference to the 'law of sin and death' Paul spoke of the Mosaic Law that it was was weak and corrupt and in Hebrews 8:13 ready to vanish away.


Romans 8:5-10
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Do you see the connection that Paul alludes to here in Romans, 1 Cor.15:43 and Galation 4? It's about how weak the Mosaic Law covenant was to bring them salvation and redemption. In fact Paul spoke of it as the body of death that governed his members.


Romans 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


Here are some passages that shows Paul alluding to the Mosaic Law as being weak and corrupt.


Romans 8:21
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.



1 Cor.15:43
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:


Romans 8:2
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Thus when Paul uses anaolgies like that of 1 Cor.15 of seeds that with is sown is natural, corrupt, dishonour, weakness he is drawing the analogy form the old covenant Mosaic law of sin and death and then contrasting that body of death to that body that is to be rasied which is a spiritual body. Neither of these concepts has to do with man's physical body, but that of the transformation from the old covenant of death to the new covenant of Life. Therefore when Paul used 'flesh and blood' can't inherit the kingdom of God he was saying the ones that remain dead in their sins of the old covenant can't inherit the kingdom of God. Which means those that sought after their salvation from the sacrfices of animals would not be aloud to enter the kingdom. Hope that's helps your understanding of death.

Beck,

I feel that there is a major misunderstanding concerning your synthesis above, let's have Paul tell us about it:

Romans 7
12So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Yep. (Did you see it?)

There is nothing wrong with the Law of Moses at all; it is spiritual, holy, righteous, and good. However, there is something wrong with us; we are of flesh--even sinners. And so, the Law tells us what sin is; it is disobediance to the Law of Moses.

Thus, Paul indicates that sinning is not possible with "dead people". And in Christ, all of us are dead to the Law:

Rom. 7
4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

In other words, we as saints in Christ are not under the Law at all. This is what Paul is saying. Therefore, we are free from sin. That's all:

Rom. 6
14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

And of course, Paul indicates this principle elsewhere--and because Christ is the Immortal King at the Right hand of God:

Col. 3
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.
5Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

(go to the next post . . .)

[Beckrl]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)



Hi Beck,

I cannot imagine that death was "abolished" in the year 70AD.

Now of course, we know that Herod's Temple/Jerusalem was destroyed in AD70; but we have to go to an historian to find that out--and not the Bible.

Indeed, no one could have known the exact hour or day of the destruction of the Temple of Herod/Jerusalem, because all Jesus said was this below:

Hi Billy

It seems we keep going around and around, so this might be my last try at defining which death. When we read that Jesus indeed did abolish death and that would even be while he liveth. As I mentioned his words is Life....Therefore those that were once dead in their sins was quicken to Life. What death is in reference here?

The Bible says that Jesus has abolished, or destroyed, death.

But it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Timothy 1:10).

Since believers still die, in what sense has He accomplished this?

Spiritual Death

The word death in this verse refers to spiritual, not physical, death. They no longer need to be separated from God. They now have life and immortality through Christ. He, therefore, abolished spiritual death in the sense that Christians are made spiritually alive through believing in Him. The Bible says.

Therefore we have been buried with Him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. . . . So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. . . . No longer present your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness (Romans 6:4,11,13).

[billy-brown 2]

Hi Billy

It seems we keep going around and around, so this might be my last try at defining which death. When we read that Jesus indeed did abolish death and that would even be while he liveth. As I mentioned his words is Life....Therefore those that were once dead in their sins was quicken to Life. What death is in reference here?

The Bible says that Jesus has abolished, or destroyed, death.

But it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Timothy 1:10).

Since believers still die, in what sense has He accomplished this?

Spiritual Death

The word death in this verse refers to spiritual, not physical, death. They no longer need to be separated from God. They now have life and immortality through Christ. He, therefore, abolished spiritual death in the sense that Christians are made spiritually alive through believing in Him. The Bible says.

Therefore we have been buried with Him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. . . . So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. . . . No longer present your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness (Romans 6:4,11,13).

Hi Beck,

I am in no way suggesting that Christians are not made spiritually alive through Christ. This is true indeed; Amen.

On the other hand, I Tim. 6:16 is explicit in its declaration that our Lord Jesus Christ alone possesses immortality:

I Tim. 6
13I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

And so, what would that mean?

Well, that would mean that the majority of Christians will die physically before the coming of the Son of Man.

(Some will be alive when Christ returns, of course.)

I mean, all Christians are now mortal physically--and for a very good reason: our current age has physical mortality available to it only. And because of what Christ has done at the cross of Calvary, physical bodily immortality is made available for all believers in Christ. Indeed, when Christ comes "the second time" (Heb. 9:27-28), the believers who "have fallen asleep" will rise again to physical bodily immortality also, and we will be fashioned just like Christ is fashioned right now in heaven:

1 Cor. 15
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

Phil 3:
20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;
21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Heb. 9
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

That's all I am saying . . .

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)

Hi Billy,

I'm not in disagreement, but what I'm saying is that we as Full Preterist have the same foundations, but the applications are what is different. The hope of Israel as the New covenant church was that all of Israel come together as one. That is in the simpliest terms what the visions by Ezekiel where. The coming together as two sticks coming together and making one stick. This is what the Hebrews hoped for the restoration of Israel all of Israel.

Hi Beck,

I feel that one does not need to be "preterist" to see what you are saying here apropos the "one new man" that Ezekiel 37 is mentioning; I mean, Paul is refering to this passage below:

Ezek. 37
24“My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them.
25“They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever.
26“I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever.
27“My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.
28“And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”

in his letter to the Corinthians below:

II Cor. 6
15Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

16Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

17“Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord.
“AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
And I will welcome you.

18“And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
Says the Lord Almighty.

However, none of these people of faith above are immortal at all.

Nope. Why?

Well, because none of them have risen from the dead in the manner that Jesus Christ did as of yet. Indeed, Christ rose from the dead with a glorified immortal body--even as Paul preached in the message of the Gospel below:

Acts 13
26“Brethren, sons of Abraham’s family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent.

27“For those who live in Jerusalem, and their rulers, recognizing neither Him nor the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning Him.

28“And though they found no ground for putting Him to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed.

29“When they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb.

30“But God raised Him from the dead;

31and for many days He appeared to those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, the very ones who are now His witnesses to the people.

32“And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers,

33that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ‘YOU ARE MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.’

34“As for the fact that He raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I WILL GIVE YOU THE HOLY and SURE blessings OF DAVID.’

35“Therefore He also says in another Psalm, ‘YOU WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.’

36“For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;

37but He whom God raised did not undergo decay.

38“Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,

39and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

(go to the next post . . .)

[Beckrl]

Hi Beck,


Well, that would mean that the majority of Christians will die physically before the coming of the Son of Man.

(Some will be alive when Christ returns, of course.)

That's not what Matthew 16 :27-28 claims and this is what the OP has stated. That some standing there would see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Of which we can't disconnect vesre 27 from 28 of clearly the reference of judgment was to come in the life time of them standing there.

Matthew 16:27-28
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

[billy-brown 2]

That's not what Matthew 16 :27-28 claims and this is what the OP has stated. That some standing there would see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Of which we can't disconnect vesre 27 from 28 of clearly the reference of judgment was to come in the life time of them standing there.

Matthew 16:27-28
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Well, this is the dialectic of the thread, yes?

Indeed, the phrase "coming of the Son of Man" can be understood as either the rule of Christ (from after the resurrection of Christ from the dead and His ascension to the right hand of the Power) or as it is stated here apropos His glorious Second Coming:

Rev. 1
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

[billy-brown 2]

Act 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

You certainly would not claim that the times of RESTORATION as the NKJV says has occurred, would you?

LOL

No, I would not claim that . . . Indeed, Jesus Christ is "held in the heavens" until the times of restitution and so on. And of course, the following has been spoken indeed:

Dan. 7
27‘Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’

[shepherdsword]

I am glad that most of us here believe in "the great hope"..RESURRECTION!

As has been stated clearly in several places in this thread and also in the word itself,without the resurrection we are of all men most miserable.

On a side note I can't help but be grieved over the freaky and unscriptural beliefs that many are bound by,truly we are in the days of "the great falling away" that Paul,through the Spirit,warned us about!

[billy-brown 2]

I am glad that most of us here believe in "the great hope"..RESURRECTION!

As has been stated clearly in several places in this thread and also in the word itself,without the resurrection we are of all men most miserable.

On a side note I can't help but be grieved over the freaky and unscriptural beliefs that many are bound by,truly we are in the days of "the great falling away" that Paul,through the Spirit,warned us about!

Well, this is the "Contro" forum, so . . .

And of course, Paul said it best:

I Cor. 15
3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

Yep.

[Beckrl]

I am glad that most of us here believe in "the great hope"..RESURRECTION!

As has been stated clearly in several places in this thread and also in the word itself,without the resurrection we are of all men most miserable.

On a side note I can't help but be grieved over the freaky and unscriptural beliefs that many are bound by,truly we are in the days of "the great falling away" that Paul,through the Spirit,warned us about!

Right I to find it also grievest that many seemly misinterpert Matthew 16:27-28 and in doing so must claim that some of them standing there that day must live until the day Christ returns. Unbelievable!

[billy-brown 2]

Right I to find it also grievest that many seemly misinterpert Matthew 16:27-28 and in doing so must claim that some of them standing there that day must live until the day Christ returns. Unbelievable!

Hi Beck,

OK, here goes . . .

Here are the verses in question--labeled as A) and B):

A)
Matt. 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matt. 16:27 speaks of the Second Coming of Christ at the end of our current age; it is in our future from now. After all, there are angels that are involved:

II Thess. 1
6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Now, which saint is left out of that which is mentioned in II Thess. 1:10?

On the other hand, we have this verse below:

B)
Matt. 16
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

It appears that Matt. 16:28 speaks of a specific event (or specific events) to occur from the first century.

Now, I know this is the "Contro" forum; what is controversial about the interpretations above?

[Beckrl]

Hi Beck,

OK, here goes . . .

Here are the verses in question--labeled as A) and B):



Matt. 16:27 speaks of the Second Coming of Christ at the end of our current age; it is in our future from now. After all, there are angels that are involved:

I'm not sure just becasue angels are mentioned in this verse that we can then assume that it must be in reference to the second coming of Christ. As I mention in an earlier post that we can't disconnect this verse (27) from the following verse (28). So if we then take what the context of the pervious verses has stated (that those who follow after Jesus must also take up their cross of death) we then come to understand that these two verses (27 & 28) relate to the Son of man coming in his kingdom and them tasting death in some type of martyrdom. Yet Jesus in verse (28) tells them that some that is standing there shall not taste of physical death and would see what Matthew describes as the 'coming of the Son of man'.

So the simpliest interpertation is that if Jesus was telling them that some of them would see the Son of man coming in his kingdom then I'm going to take his word that some standing there saw the fulfillment of these verses.

Now, which saint is left out of that which is mentioned in II Thess. 1:10?

I'm not certain why you feel the need to mention 2 Thess. The context of Matthew should be enough.

On the other hand, we have this verse below:



It appears that Matt. 16:27 speaks of specific event (or events) to occur from the first century.

Now, I know this is the "Contro" forum; what is controversial about the interpretations above?

Again there no need to disconnect what Jesus said to his audience in either verse.

[billy-brown 2]

I'm not sure just becasue angels are mentioned in this verse that we can then assume that it must be in reference to the second coming of Christ.

Beck,

Whenever the coming of Christ is mentioned in terms of "every man receiving a reward" and so on, the angels are assisting that activity. Here is the verse in question again:

A)
Matt. 16
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

And here are some passages which are parallel with it:

II Thess. 1
6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Matt. 13
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matt. 13
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Matt. 25
31“But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32“All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

(go to the next post . . .)