The Coming of The Son of Man: When?-Moved from ETC

[Matthehitmanhart]

The purpose of this thread is not mostly to debate whether the coming of the son of man should be understood literally or metaphorically (which has been done a thousand times over on this board) but instead to ask the simple question: Did Jesus believe that this “coming” (whatever that might refer to) would happen within the lifetime of many of those alive during his ministry? Of course we all have our own opinions on this question, but the goal of this thread is to hold all of those various perspectives open before the standard of God’s word and see which one best withstands the test of public scrutiny. Four texts are most significant for addressing this question:

1) Matthew 24:34 (cf. Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32)

“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

2) Matthew 10:23

“But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the son of man comes.”

3) Matthew 16:27-28 (cf. Mark 8:38-9:1; Luke 9:26-27)

“For the son of man is going to come in the glory of his father with his angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.”

4) Matthew 26:63-64 (cf. Luke 22:69)

But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, from now on you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Each of these texts have two things in common: first, they each point back to Daniel 7:13-14; and, second, they each give off the powerful impression that Jesus anticipated the fulfillment of that passage within the expected lifetime of his original audience. In light of this common dependence on Daniel 7, it bears mentioning at the outset that in Daniel the son of man comes up with the clouds of heaven into the presence of the Ancient of Days to receive the kingdom; he does not come down from heaven to earth. If we keep this in mind while reading through the following passages, we may find that they begin to make more sense.

The first text (Matt 24:34) is without question the one which gets the most press in discussions like these, since it appears towards the end of Jesus’ lengthiest eschatological discourse, and everyone has a special stake in defending their particular view of that passage. When taken at face value, however, Jesus appears to be saying that all of the events forewarned in that discourse (from the beginning of birth pangs to the coming of the son of man) would come to pass within the generation of his audience at that time. Unable to accept this face value reading, some have suggested alternative ways of understanding Jesus’ use of the word “generation”, such as translating it instead as “race” or “nation”. But considering Matthew’s usage of the word throughout his gospel (1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41-42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36), and the other texts which we will consider below, such an alternative translation has little to commend it, and appears to be driven more by a particular ideology than any real interest in accurately representing the original meaning of the text.

Another alternative, which has garnered more support than the one above, is to accept that the word “generation” does indeed mean “generation”, but that the particular generation in question is not the one to which Jesus was then speaking, but rather the one in which “all these things take place”, i.e. the final generation. This is an ingenious solution to the problem, but it only survives as an escape route for those who can't accept the plain meaning of the text. The problem with this reading is that it makes the entire verse redundant, while Jesus’ emphasis suggests that it is the most important verse of the whole chapter. Also, it fails to consider the other relevant texts on the coming of the son of man.

The second text (Matt 10:23) has received less attention than the first, but it places the timing of Jesus’ expectation in an even clearer light. The disciples will not even finish going through all the towns of Israel before the son of man comes. Given that the “coming” of Daniel 7:13-14 speaks of the exaltation (and not the “decent” to earth) of the son of man to receive the kingdom of the Ancient of Days, it seems likely that Matthew regarded this saying as having been fulfilled by the time of the Great Commission, when the resurrected Jesus, having received all authority in heaven and on earth, sends the disciples out beyond the boarders of Israel to call the whole world into the kingdom (Matt 28:18-20).

The third text (Matt 16:27-28) only solidifies this impression further. There are some of Jesus’ hearers who will live to see the kingdom of the son of man, when he comes in the glory of his father and rewards everyone for their deeds. This text adds to the two above by explicitly identifying the coming of the son of man with the arrival of the kingdom, just as the son of man receives the kingdom from the Ancient of Days in Daniel 7:13. It also bears mentioning that in all three Synoptic accounts this saying appears just after Peter’s confession and just before the Transfiguration, when Jesus begins to subvert the disciples’ kingdom expectation in light of the cross and resurrection. Jesus elsewhere alludes to the kingdom of Daniel 7 with his coming suffering in mind (e.g. Mark 10:45). Is he perhaps doing that here?

The fourth text (Matt 26:63-64) is much more significant than many English translations imply. The key phrase here is “from now on” or “hereafter”, which literally means “from this time forward”. Here Jesus combines his characteristic allusion to Daniel 7 with an allusion to Psalm 110: “The Lord said to my lord, ‘Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool’. The Lord shall send the rod of your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of your enemies!” Is it a coincidence that Jesus quotes from this passage right after being accused of conspiring against the temple? Is that why Caiaphas was sent into such a rage? Whatever the answer, the central question is this: What did Jesus see happening at that moment that could be interpreted as the messianic enthronement of Daniel 7 and Psalm 110?

(1) “This generation will not pass away”; (2) “before you finish going through all the cities of Israel”; (3) “there are some standing here who will not taste death”; (4) “from now on...” The cumulative effect of all four passages is overwhelming. Whatever we might say about the content of this prediction, one conclusion appears glaringly obvious: that Jesus anticipated this “coming” very quickly, to the point of being almost present, and that in his mind it was intrinsically connected to what he saw himself doing at that time. This conclusion is so firmly based in the explicit words of Jesus, and in the parallel accounts of all three Synoptic gospels, that it is as close to a “proven fact” as any point of biblical theology can be.

And now the question presses: Was Jesus simply wrong in his prediction about the coming of the son of man? Or have we simply misunderstood it?

[jeffweeder]

I read your post rather quickly, as i dont have time right now.

A question popped into my mind,

If Nobody but the Father knows the time, then how could Jesus predict that it would be in that generation.?..as if he knew.

I dont believe AD 70 was on his mind, because he prophecied the Jews would be exiled after this event and the times of the Gentiles would be apparant over Jerusalem...UNTIL those times come to an end.

I will have to come back later to give your post the time it deserves.
God bless.

[Matthehitmanhart]

I read your post rather quickly, as i dont have time right now.

A question popped into my mind,

If Nobody but the Father knows the time, then how could Jesus predict that it would be in that generation.?..as if he knew.

Saying that an event will occur within a generation is very different than predicting the exact time. Jesus said that it would occur within that generation, but that he did not know the exact time. There is no contradiction in those two statements.

I dont believe AD 70 was on his mind, because he prophecied the Jews would be exiled after this event and the times of the Gentiles would be apparant over Jerusalem...UNTIL those times come to an end.

That's one way to interpret the "times of the Gentiles". But whether or not you see AD70 in view is not the main issue I'm addressing in the OP. For the sake of argument, let's say that the "coming of the son of man" in the Olivet Discourse refers to the second coming and not Jesus' kingly vindication via the destruction of Jerusalem - that doesn't change the fact that he predicted this "coming" within the expected lifetime of his audience at that time. This is why C.S. Lewis called Matthew 24:34 "the most embarrassing verse in the whole Bible". Now, I do not agree with Lewis' assumption that the "coming of the son of man" must have referred to the second coming, but I appreciate his honesty in admitting the plain sense meaning of the text regarding "this generation". Futurism just isn't an exegetically viable option where that phrase is concerned, IMO, or indeed in any of the other passages mentioned in the OP.

[John 8:32]

The purpose of this thread is not mostly to debate whether the coming of the son of man should be understood literally or metaphorically (which has been done a thousand times over on this board) but instead to ask the simple question: Did Jesus believe that this “coming” (whatever that might refer to) would happen within the lifetime of many of those alive during his ministry? Of course we all have our own opinions on this question, but the goal of this thread is to hold all of those various perspectives open before the standard of God’s word and see which one best withstands the test of public scrutiny. Four texts are most significant for addressing this question:

1) Matthew 24:34 (cf. Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32)

“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

Read that statement in the context of the previous verse...

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Did these things happen?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Seems like if this had already occured, it might have been noteworthy enough that someone would have recorded it.

2) Matthew 10:23

“But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the son of man comes.”

Israel and Judah are two different nations. Specifically, Israel is Ephraim and Manasseh...

Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Eze 37:18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

There is a time when the two will be joined together again, but it has not happened yet...

Eze 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

David is not ruling over the united tribes at ths time. Do you really think that what we call Israel today is fulfilling the latter half of verse 24?

Now do you think that Christians have had to flee from city to city in Ephraim and Manasseh due to persecution?

3) Matthew 16:27-28 (cf. Mark 8:38-9:1; Luke 9:26-27)

“For the son of man is going to come in the glory of his father with his angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.”

It was a vision, continue reading into the beginning of Chapter 17...

Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Now read verse 9...

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

4) Matthew 26:63-64 (cf. Luke 22:69)

But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, that you tell us whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, from now on you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
[FONT=Times]

nervertheless comes from...

G575
ἀπό
apo
apo'
A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

G737
ἄρτι
arti
ar'-tee
Adverb from a derivative of G142 (compare G740) through the idea of suspension; just now: - this day (hour), hence [-forth], here [-after], hither [-to], (even) now, (this) present.

Albert Barnes says that "nevertheless" should be translated...

Nevertheless - This word should have been translated: “moreover or furthermore.” What follows is designed to explain and give confirmation to what he had said.

And now the question presses: Was Jesus simply wrong in his prediction about the coming of the son of man? Or have we simply misunderstood it?

I think that someone may have misunderstood.

[billy-brown 2]

Read that statement in the context of the previous verse...

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Did these things happen?

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Seems like if this had already occured, it might have been noteworthy enough that someone would have recorded it.

John,

Jesus is talking in the verses above; it takes a lot of courage to let Him speak. Did He lie?

And the OP is suggesting that Dan. 7:13-14 is foundational to the passage; are you aware of that?

Indeed, Jesus had to have read Daniel, yes?

[John 8:32]

Let's look at Dan 7

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Hmmm, seems I have seen that before. Oh wait, Dan 2!

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

This is in the context of a vision in which Daniel saw four world ruling empires, Babylon, Medo-Persian, Greco-Macedonian and Roman empires. Let's look at Rev 13 next...

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Seven heads - seven rulers

1st was called the Imperial Restoration under Justinian
2nd was Charlemagne
3rd was Otto the Great
4th was the Habsburg Dynasty
5th was Napolean
6th was Italy united under Garibaldi with it's peak under Hitler-Mussolini
7th yet to arise. Germany and the ten kings in Europe.

This final resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire will be smashed by the return of Christ and He will rule over the earth forever after that. You will not be left in doubt as to whether this has happened or not for...

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

[billy-brown 2]

Let's look at Dan 7

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Hmmm, seems I seen that before. Oh wait, Dan 2!

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

This is in the context of a vision in which Daniel saw four world ruling empires, Babylon, Medo-Persian, Greco-Macedonian and Roman empires. Let's look at Rev 13 next...

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Seven heads - seven rulers

1st was called the Imperial Restoration under Justinian
2nd was Charlemagne
3rd was Otto the Great
4th was the Habsburg Dynasty
5th was Napolean
6th was Italy united under Garibaldi with it's peak under Hitler-Mussolini
7th yet to arise. Germany and the ten kings in Europe.

This final resurrection of the Holy Roman Empire will be smashed by the return of Christ and He will rule over the earth forever after that. You will not be left in doubt as to whether this has happened or not for...

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

But John,

The phrase "cometh with clouds" has a direction in Dan. 7:13-14: it is UP to heaven--and not DOWN to earth.

Are you aware of that?

[John 8:32]

But John,

The phrase "cometh with clouds" has a direction in Dan. 7:13-14: it is UP to heaven--and not DOWN to earth.

Are you aware of that?

OK then...

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Anbody see this yet?

[billy-brown 2]

OK then...

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Anbody see this yet?

John,

Acts 1:9-11 is not referring to the context of Dan. 7:13-14 at all. Really. And of course, Jesus shall indeed return again as you are saying, yes?

But Jesus read the book of Daniel--you are aware of that, yes?

So, let's look closer at the applicable verses:

Dan. 7
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14a And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, . . .

Yep.

Jesus came UP to receive a kingdom as well as glory and dominion from the Father already. And this is indeed what Jesus is referring to here:

Matt. 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And of course, Jesus indicates that this would occur thusly:

Matt. 24
34“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

In other words, Jesus is indicating that before that generation passed away, He would be vindicated as King of Kings at the right hand of the Power in heaven.

That's all . . .

[John 8:32]

John,

Acts 1:9-11 is not referring to the context of Dan. 7:13-14 at all. Really.

Seems to me you are asking me to assume a lot there. When you link it with Dan 2 and about 1000 other prophecies concerning the return of Christ and the establishment of His Kingdom it is speaking of the same thing. How many Kingdoms does He establish? We have already discussed the issue of tunnel vision and not looking at all the scriptures on a subject.

And of course, Jesus shall indeed return again as you are saying, yes?

Just as He said in Acts 1, Dan 2, John 14, etc.

But Jesus read the book of Daniel--you are aware of that, yes?

Read it? He wrote it!

So, let's look closer at the applicable verses:

No, what you are doing is singling out one verse and not applying it in context with all the other scriptures about the establishment of the Kingdom of God.

Dan. 7
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, . . .

Yep.

Jesus came UP to receive a kingdom as well as glory and dominion from the Father already. And this is indeed what Jesus is referring to here:

He received it and is coming back to establish it on earth…

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Luk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Which tribe are you judging currently?

2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

When did He appear? I must have missed it. Have I been judged yet?

Matt. 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And of course, Jesus indicates that this would occur thusly:

Matt. 24
34“Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.”

You skipped a couple didn’t you…

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The generation in which all these things come to pass…

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Didn’t happen in 70 AD (did happen in type in 168 BC, but Jesus is referring to it in future tense.)

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

What WMD’s did they have that would cause ALL FLESH to die? This only became possible at or around the mid 1950’s when the US and Soviet Union had enough nuclear weapons to destroy all life off the earth.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The meaning kinda changes when we read all the verses concerning “that generation”

In other words, Jesus is indicating that before that generation passed away, He would be vindicated as King of Kings at the right hand of the Power in heaven.

When the generation when all these things occur is extant, then it will not pass away until Christ returns and rule on the earth just as He said He would.
And as you say…

That's all . . .

[billy-brown 2]

Seems to me you are asking me to assume a lot there. When you link it with Dan 2 and about 1000 other prophecies concerning the return of Christ and the establishment of His Kingdom it is speaking of the same thing. How many Kingdoms does He establish? We have already discussed the issue of tunnel vision and not looking at all the scriptures on a subject.

Yep. I believe that we should look at all the scriptures on a subject.

But this passage from Dan. 7:13-14 is critical with respect to the establishment of the Kingdom of God. Remember, there is one Kingdom of God, yes?

And so, a Kingdom is the DOMAIN of a King--and Jesus is that King. But I feel that you might be missing the following in this scripture:

Dan. 7
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14a And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, . . .

Yep. (Did you see it?)

Jesus came up to the Ancient of Days to receive that which was given to Him by the Ancient of Days. And what was that?

Well, He received a Kingdom.

This means that Jesus was installed as King/Priest at the right hand of the Power.

Thus, Jesus is Sitting and Ruling right now at the Father's right hand--even as mentioned in this passage:

Psalm 110
1The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

2The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”

3Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Your youth are to You as the dew.

4The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”

5The Lord is at Your right hand;
He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.

6He will judge among the nations,
He will fill them with corpses,
He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.

7He will drink from the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He will lift up His head.

and as implied here:

Psalm 45
6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

7You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

This brings us to the following from you:

Just as He said in Acts 1, Dan 2, John 14, etc.

Read it? He wrote it!

Well, when I mention that Jesus read the book of Daniel, I do that based on the fact that Jesus regularly read the scriptures while He was on the earth physically. I mean, He referred to the prophet Daniel in Matt. 24:15, yes?

Matt. 24
15“Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
16then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

(go to the next post . . .)

[John 8:32]

Yep. I believe that we should look at all the scriptures on a subject.

But this passage from Dan. 7:13-14 is critical with respect to the establishment of the Kingdom of God. Remember, there is one Kingdom of God, yes?

And so, a Kingdom is the DOMAIN of a King--and Jesus is that King. But I feel that you might be missing the following in this scripture:

Dan. 7
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14a And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, . . .

Yep. (Did you see it?)

Yep, I saw it.

Jesus came up to the Ancient of Days to receive that which was given to Him by the Ancient of Days. And what was that?

Well, He received a Kingdom.

This means that Jesus was installed as King/Priest at the right hand of the Power.

You missed the rest of it...

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Thus, Jesus is Sitting and Ruling right now at the Father's right hand--even as mentioned in this passage:

How about this passage...

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He is currently set down with the Father in the Father's throne. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne. When?

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

When He returns as witnessed by Dan 2:44

and as implied here:

Psalm 45
6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

7You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

This brings us to the following from you:

Originally Posted by John 8:32

Just as He said in Acts 1, Dan 2, John 14, etc.

Read it? He wrote it!

Well, when I mention that Jesus read the book of Daniel, I do that based on the fact that Jesus regularly read the scriptures while He was on the earth physically. I mean, He referred to the prophet Daniel in Matt. 24:15, yes?

Jesus also knew what Dan 2:44 said because He inspired it to be written.

(go to the next post . . .)

Not necessary for me.

[billy-brown 2]

Yep, I saw it.



You missed the rest of it...

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.



How about this passage...

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

He is currently set down with the Father in the Father's throne. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne. When?

Luk 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

When He returns as witnessed by Dan 2:44

Jesus also knew what Dan 2:44 said because He inspired it to be written.

Not necessary for me.

John,

When did this happen?

Psalm 45
6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

7You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of joy above Your fellows.

Did it not occur as mentioned here below? Look carefully:

Heb. 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”

7And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”

8But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

9“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

Yep.

After Jesus purged our sins, He took the forever Kingdom of God, and ascended to the right hand of the Father on a FOREVER throne in heaven. And if Jesus is not sitting there right now, He can never return the second time. Why?

Well, because His return the second time (per Heb. 9:27-28) features the abolishing of death:

I Cor. 15
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

And of course, we are seated with Him right now already:

Eph. 2
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

[Stormcrow]

After all, His Second Coming is in our future from now, yes?

His second coming occurred "immediately after the tribulation of those days." His words, not mine:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth [literally "land" (Zech.12:10-14)] will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (ESV)

"Tribulation of those days": tribulation of Jerusalem (civil war, famine, disease, the Roman siege) that leads to its desolation (destruction).

"...sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

Every time God judges a nation in the Old Testament, the warnings of His impending judgment come with this language:

The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw. Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. Isaiah 13:1,9-10 (ESV)

This was fulfilled in the overthrow of the Babylonian kingdom by the Medes, as recorded in Daniel 5:

That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old. Daniel 5:30-31 (ESV)

This same language is used by the prophet Ezekiel to prophesy of Egypt's impending defeat by the Babylonians:

"Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him..."And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light. "All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land," Declares the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 32:7-8 (NASB)

This was fulfilled in the defeat of Pharoah Neco's armies at Carchemish:

To Egypt, concerning the army of Pharaoh Neco king of Egypt, which was by the Euphrates River at Carchemish, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon defeated in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah: Jeremiah 46:2 (NASB)

Finally, this language appears several time in the book of Joel when he prophesies of the impending judgment of Judah at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar:

Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn is spread over the mountains, So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it To the years of many generations. Joel 2:1-2 (NASB)

(It's important to note that Jesus even quotes Daniel, Joel and Ezekiel when He says of the "great tribulation" of Jerusalem, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:21 (NASB). Ezekiel writes the same thing prophesying of the coming destruction of Jerusalem: And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again. Ezekiel 5:9 (ESV). And Daniel writes this: “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1 (ESV))

This prophecy from Joel 2 was fulfilled - as noted in an earlier post - as seen in 2Chronicles 36:

Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. 2 Chronicles 36:17 (NASB)

In every one of these instances, and others like it, we know that the stars did not literally fall from the sky. We know that the sun wasn't literally darkened. We do know this language is metaphor for socio-political upheaval on a national scale brought about - according to the prophets - by the judgment of God upon a nation. Christ's use of this language in Matthew 24:29 to describe the coming judgment and destruction of Jerusalem is no different than the manner in which the Old Testament prophets used it when prophesying of the destruction of Pharoah's armies and of Judah and Jerusalem at the hands of Babylon, and of Babylon's usurpation as an empire at the hands of the Medes.

I will explain Matthew 24:30 in the context of Old Testament prophetic language in my next post.

[billy-brown 2]

His second coming occurred "immediately after the tribulation of those days." His words, not mine:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth [literally "land" (Zech.12:10-14)] will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:29-30 (ESV)

"Tribulation of those days": tribulation of Jerusalem (civil war, famine, disease, the Roman siege) that leads to its desolation (destruction).

"...sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken."

Every time God judges a nation in the Old Testament, the warnings of His impending judgment come with this language:

The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw. Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. Isaiah 13:1,9-10 (ESV)

This was fulfilled in the overthrow of the Babylonian kingdom by the Medes, as recorded in Daniel 5:

That very night Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed. And Darius the Mede received the kingdom, being about sixty-two years old. Daniel 5:30-31 (ESV)

This same language is used by the prophet Ezekiel to prophesy of Egypt's impending defeat by the Babylonians:

"Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him..."And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light. "All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land," Declares the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 32:7-8 (NASB)

This was fulfilled in the defeat of Pharoah Neco's armies at Carchemish:

To Egypt, concerning the army of Pharaoh Neco king of Egypt, which was by the Euphrates River at Carchemish, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon defeated in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, king of Judah: Jeremiah 46:2 (NASB)

Finally, this language appears several time in the book of Joel when he prophesies of the impending judgment of Judah at the hands of Nebuchadnezzar:

Blow a trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm on My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of the LORD is coming; Surely it is near, A day of darkness and gloom, A day of clouds and thick darkness. As the dawn is spread over the mountains, So there is a great and mighty people; There has never been anything like it, Nor will there be again after it To the years of many generations. Joel 2:1-2 (NASB)

(It's important to note that Jesus even quotes Daniel, Joel and Ezekiel when He says of the "great tribulation" of Jerusalem, "For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. Matthew 24:21 (NASB). Ezekiel writes the same thing prophesying of the coming destruction of Jerusalem: And because of all your abominations I will do with you what I have never yet done, and the like of which I will never do again. Ezekiel 5:9 (ESV). And Daniel writes this: “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. Daniel 12:1 (ESV))

This prophecy from Joel 2 was fulfilled - as noted in an earlier post - as seen in 2Chronicles 36:

Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand. 2 Chronicles 36:17 (NASB)

In every one of these instances, and others like it, we know that the stars did not literally fall from the sky. We know that the sun wasn't literally darkened. We do know this language is metaphor for socio-political upheaval on a national scale brought about - according to the prophets - by the judgment of God upon a nation. Christ's use of this language in Matthew 24:29 to describe the coming judgment and destruction of Jerusalem is no different than the manner in which the Old Testament prophets used it when prophesying of the destruction of Pharoah's armies and of Judah and Jerusalem at the hands of Babylon, and of Babylon's usurpation as an empire at the hands of the Medes.

I will explain Matthew 24:30 in the context of Old Testament prophetic language in my next post.

Hi Stormcrow,

The second coming of Christ features the abolishing of death; which has not happened.

Therefore, the second coming of Christ is in our future from now--as taught here:

I Cor. 15
20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

And notice how death is abolished below:

I Cor. 15
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

Yep . . .