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Thread: Romans 1. Alternate views.

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    Romans 1. Alternate views.

    Hey all! I was just wondering how people that are not against homosexuality deal with Romans chapter 1. I of course adhere to it's more normal interpretation. Just want to know the "logic" behind their reasoning. I have heard that they believe it is a reference to prison??? Which doesn't really make any sense since what is against the law in prison is against the law outside of prison.

    Anybody know?

    I am wondering because it came up in a debate on Facebook. One person said that was her interpretation of the passage. I decided to not ask her why because it would probably get messy. I have heard others allude to the meaning not being "against homosexuality". Although in my mind it is a rather harsh denouncement of the idea.
    Last edited by jesse; May 14th 2012 at 04:00 AM.

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    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    There is no other way to interpret that passage in Romans. Paul is pretty straight forward in his assessments of sexual immorality. Many people will attempt to call Paul's writings into question by trying to portray him as intolerant toward homosexuals and women. I find lots of Facebook discussions on Christianity to be filled with "Social Gospel" and Emergent Theology. You may find yourself outnumbered by people who twist the Gospel to fit their political or social views. Don't be deterred! The true Word of God can defend itself, as long as someone is brave enough to put it out there. Those folks might berate you, but you'll be doing them a favor. Jump into those debates, they may get rough, but you'll always have us Back here in your corner. You can find a kindred spirit in Timothy, Paul encouraged him to jump into those debates, and use the true Word against false teaching.

    ------For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.-2 Timothy 4:3-5
    Baruch hata Adonai, elo-henu malech ha-olam, ha'tov, va-ha'me-tev.

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    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse View Post
    Hey all! I was just wondering how people that are not against homosexuality deal with Romans chapter 1. I of course adhere to it's more normal interpretation. Just want to know the "logic" behind their reasoning. I have heard that they believe it is a reference to prison??? Which doesn't really make any sense since what is against the law in prison is against the law outside of prison.

    Anybody know?

    I am wondering because it came up in a debate on Facebook. One person said that was her interpretation of the passage. I decided to not ask her why because it would probably get messy. I have heard others allude to the meaning not being "against homosexuality". Although in my mind it is a rather harsh denouncement of the idea.
    The text in Romans 1:26-27 is about as clear as any other text in all of scripture. To deny that it's saying homosexuality is sin would require someone to either ignore the text or to rewrite the text.

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    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoboTone View Post
    There is no other way to interpret that passage in Romans. Paul is pretty straight forward in his assessments of sexual immorality. Many people will attempt to call Paul's writings into question by trying to portray him as intolerant toward homosexuals and women. I find lots of Facebook discussions on Christianity to be filled with "Social Gospel" and Emergent Theology. You may find yourself outnumbered by people who twist the Gospel to fit their political or social views. Don't be deterred! The true Word of God can defend itself, as long as someone is brave enough to put it out there. Those folks might berate you, but you'll be doing them a favor. Jump into those debates, they may get rough, but you'll always have us Back here in your corner. You can find a kindred spirit in Timothy, Paul encouraged him to jump into those debates, and use the true Word against false teaching.

    ------For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.-2 Timothy 4:3-5
    You nailed that right on the head. Check this out.


    One guy says to me "Where in the new testament does Jesus say anything, good or bad, about homosexuality?"

    I reply. "Romans chapter 1. When a king sends a messenger with a message it is the same thing as him saying it himself."

    He says. "That says nothing at all about homosexuality. All of the homo-hatin' comes from the old testament and it's cherry picking to decide that it's not ok to be homosexual, then go enjoy any of a multitude of shellfish dishes at Red Lobster, or mow your lawn on Sunday, etc, etc, etc...."

    I reply. "Romans 1:18-32 It even talks about gay as distinct from lesbianism."

    He says. "I asked what Jesus says, good or bad. The correct answer is: Nothing."

    I reply. "Neither did he mention pedophilia, bestiality, cannibalism, rape, wife beating or any number of other sins. Nor during his ministry did he leave the land promised to Israel. Neither was he sent to anyone but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (who coincidentally had all the laws). The apostle Paul however was sent by God to the gentiles."

    He says... Here it comes.... the obviously t.v. answer. "Child molestation, rape, physical abuse....these things destroy lives. Civilized culture doesn't need a little book to tell us these things are bad. Two people who love each other and want equal rights hurts no one. That's a pretty brutal comparison that's way off base."

    I reply. "Classic."

    You see what he did there? He implies that because Jesus didn't mention it... it isn't sin. I say there are plenty of sins Jesus didn't mention. He interprets it as "these sins are equally bad". Then he says... "we don't need a little book to tell us when things are bad" Well, i got news for ya... you can't follow a simply conversation... you need thousands of books! I didn't say that of course... but this is my conversation with just about every atheist who thinks we are "more evolved" and "don't need the bible". It is almost laughable in a very very sad way.

    Not to mention that "equal rights hurts no one" As if! Why is there such opposition to it? It obviously hurts religious people everywhere! Gay people not getting married hurts no one. (oh wait it hurts gays who want to get married) That is why there is a debate. This guy isn't dumb either. He is well educated by most standards.

    Sorry i am totally venting and none of this has to do with the girl who brought up my initial question.

    I am beginning to think that i am either extremely smart, extremely stupid, or just unable to communicate clearly.

    I have noticed two things about atheists though....

    You can't compare homosexuality to any other sin or their logic side of the brain shuts down and they run off emotion. And you can't compare Atheists like Pol Pot, or Stalin to any other atheist or the logic side of the brain shuts down and they run off emotion.

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    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    It's true that Paul is clearly talking about homosexuality in that passage. He is using the example of homosexual behavior to illustrate his point that human beings unrighteously suppress information they don't want to see in order to live whatever way suits them, ignoring God in the process. He asserts that human beings have no excuse for claiming that God doesn't exist because God can be known to exist by observation. Anyone with open eyes can see his handiwork and conclude not only that God exists, but can know something about his power and his glory from it. Atheists claim they have no empirical evidence but Paul says they do. They just choose to ignore it.

    To illustrate a case in which people ignore the clear evidence presented to them, he offers the case of homosexuals, who have the evidence on their own bodies. Males and females have unique body parts that have an obvious purpose. But in order for a homosexual to practice homosexuality, a man must deny this obvious fact, choosing to suppress such knowledge and pretend that such an obvious design feature of human sexuality doesn't exist or is not relevant. He says that someone who denies such an obvious fact of human existence has a mind not worth calling a mind.

    Having said all that, it is important to understand that Paul hasn't signaled homosexuals out in order to say that they are worse than any other sinner or worse than any other person who suppresses the truth unrighteously. He uses them because homosexuality is the most obvious case of suppression of the evidence of our nature. Homosexuality isn't the worst sin; it's just the most obvious case of suppression.

  6. #6

    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    If you believe Romans 1 is the word of God and the truth, Paul's message to the Romans is pretty easy to understand. From a biblical point of view, I find it hard to see an alternative view for Romans 1, except if you are trying to suppress the truth or replace it with a lie.

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    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse View Post
    You nailed that right on the head. Check this out.


    One guy says to me "Where in the new testament does Jesus say anything, good or bad, about homosexuality?"

    I reply. "Romans chapter 1. When a king sends a messenger with a message it is the same thing as him saying it himself."

    He says. "That says nothing at all about homosexuality. All of the homo-hatin' comes from the old testament and it's cherry picking to decide that it's not ok to be homosexual, then go enjoy any of a multitude of shellfish dishes at Red Lobster, or mow your lawn on Sunday, etc, etc, etc...."

    I reply. "Romans 1:18-32 It even talks about gay as distinct from lesbianism."

    He says. "I asked what Jesus says, good or bad. The correct answer is: Nothing."

    I reply. "Neither did he mention pedophilia, bestiality, cannibalism, rape, wife beating or any number of other sins. Nor during his ministry did he leave the land promised to Israel. Neither was he sent to anyone but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (who coincidentally had all the laws). The apostle Paul however was sent by God to the gentiles."

    He says... Here it comes.... the obviously t.v. answer. "Child molestation, rape, physical abuse....these things destroy lives. Civilized culture doesn't need a little book to tell us these things are bad. Two people who love each other and want equal rights hurts no one. That's a pretty brutal comparison that's way off base."

    I reply. "Classic."

    You see what he did there? He implies that because Jesus didn't mention it... it isn't sin. I say there are plenty of sins Jesus didn't mention. He interprets it as "these sins are equally bad". Then he says... "we don't need a little book to tell us when things are bad" Well, i got news for ya... you can't follow a simply conversation... you need thousands of books! I didn't say that of course... but this is my conversation with just about every atheist who thinks we are "more evolved" and "don't need the bible". It is almost laughable in a very very sad way.

    Not to mention that "equal rights hurts no one" As if! Why is there such opposition to it? It obviously hurts religious people everywhere! Gay people not getting married hurts no one. (oh wait it hurts gays who want to get married) That is why there is a debate. This guy isn't dumb either. He is well educated by most standards.

    Sorry i am totally venting and none of this has to do with the girl who brought up my initial question.

    I am beginning to think that i am either extremely smart, extremely stupid, or just unable to communicate clearly.

    I have noticed two things about atheists though....

    You can't compare homosexuality to any other sin or their logic side of the brain shuts down and they run off emotion. And you can't compare Atheists like Pol Pot, or Stalin to any other atheist or the logic side of the brain shuts down and they run off emotion.
    Sounds like you have a good handle on the situation!
    Baruch hata Adonai, elo-henu malech ha-olam, ha'tov, va-ha'me-tev.

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    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    I am on the side of the Lord re: homosexuality; however, since nobody has addressed the other side too much...and since I've been through this with a dear family member, I'll share some of the arguments one might expect to encounter from the pro-homosexual crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGreatBout
    Daniel Helminiak, in his book What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality, argues that homosexuality as a lifestyle and that homosexual acts are not condemned in scripture. To help support this claim he examines Romans 1:18-32. I’ve posted this passage below in the comments section for reference.

    “…only verse 27 is a clear reference to homogenital acts, male homogenital acts, though verse 26 is said to refer to lesbian sex” (p. 75-76).

    This biggest issue for Helminiak is the Greek term for “unnatural” in verse 26. The Greek is para phsyin. Physin means “nature.” Para means “beside,” “more than,” “over and above,” “beyond.” Para can also mean “contrary to.”

    “But given Paul’s own usage of these terms, the sense is not ‘in opposition to the laws of nature’ but rather ‘unexpectedly’ or ‘in an unusual way,’ what we might mean if we said: ‘Contrary to her nature, Jean got up and danced last night’” (p.79).

    Pages later, the author discuss how Paul does not use “unnatural” in the Stoic sense of acting against the natural law of things (though the author admits he uses several Stoic formulas of speech) but in his own personal terms that derive solely from Wisdom 13:1-9. Verse one states “Surely vain are all men by nature, who are ignorant of G-D, and could not out of the good things that are seen know him that is: neither by considering the works did they acknowledge the workmaster.” Helminiak writes that the stoic usage is abstract and Paul’s is concrete. He also claims that Paul is mangling the stoic language. His final claim concerned with this issue of stoic usage deals with it’s perverse influence on western culture and research by saying that scholars who say “…Paul sees homosexuality as a violation of this [G-D’s creation in Genesis] plan, as the subversion of the natural order built into the created universe” (p. 84) are reading a concern for our common day into the Genesis account. Essentially Helminiak declares one can make no case dealing with sexual orientation using the creation account from Genesis.

    “For Paul these words do not mean ‘unethical.’ According to Paul’s usage, those words only say that the practices were different from what one would generally expect. Rather than ‘unnatural,’ the words para physin in Romans would more accurately be translated as ‘atypical’ - unusual, peculiar, out of the ordinary, uncharacteristic” (p. 79-80). In other words he is saying that the unnatural relations are not homosexual relations at all but could be “sex during menstruation, sex with an uncircumcised man, oral sex, heterosexual anal sex, having sex while standing up, or anything not considered the standard way of having sex” (p. 87) and this dismisses the case against homosexual acts being unethical according to Romans chapter 1.

    Helminiak gives one other example in the New Testament in which para physin is used to mean “unnatural.” Romans 11:24 states “For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree” (NASB). The author uses this scripture to purify the term in its earlier usage by claiming that G-D does “unnatural” things and therefore Paul’s use in the first chapter could not possibly have a negative connotation.

    Helminiak dismisses the idea that this passage could be addressing lesbians. He concludes it is not possible that Paul is condemning women committing homogenital acts because 1) it is not wrong according to Jewish custom and 2) it never shows up anywhere else in scripture so there it is illogical to believe it was ever truly an issue. Paul must have meant something different.

    “What sense would the case against homogenitality make if the Bible condemns only male, but not female, homogenital activity? …the Bible nowhere condemns homogenitality” (p. 89).

    At the end of this argument Helminiak is making the case that “unnatural” simply means that the actions of Romans 1:18-32 are socially unacceptable and not ethically unacceptable. Since homogenital relations are socially acceptable now, there can be no argument against them biblically.
    from TheGreatBout website

    One of my dearly loved children sent me this book in defense of their choice to live the homosexual lifestyle. The book is not well written, especially for one who is a former RCC priest and holds a PhD...however, to the unsure, it seems that this man has exonerated the homosexual lifestyle using scripture.

    Watchman
    Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.

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    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman View Post
    I am on the side of the Lord re: homosexuality; however, since nobody has addressed the other side too much...and since I've been through this with a dear family member, I'll share some of the arguments one might expect to encounter from the pro-homosexual crowd.

    from TheGreatBout website

    One of my dearly loved children sent me this book in defense of their choice to live the homosexual lifestyle. The book is not well written, especially for one who is a former RCC priest and holds a PhD...however, to the unsure, it seems that this man has exonerated the homosexual lifestyle using scripture.

    Watchman
    Thanks for that! That must be tough! I think what eats at me the most about the whole issue is Christians are portrayed as not caring or being judgmental and hating homosexuals. I certainly don't hate them and feel your pain. "Dearly loved children" aren't they all!

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    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse View Post
    Thanks for that! That must be tough! I think what eats at me the most about the whole issue is Christians are portrayed as not caring or being judgmental and hating homosexuals. I certainly don't hate them and feel your pain. "Dearly loved children" aren't they all!
    Absolutely right. We recognize sin for what it is. We love the sinner, because we are sinners ourselves.
    Baruch hata Adonai, elo-henu malech ha-olam, ha'tov, va-ha'me-tev.

  11. #11

    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    It is pretty much self explanatory. I don't think one should need an alternative interpretation of it.

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    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    It seems to me that because of suppressing the truth, God has given them over to the lifestyle and inability to see what we see.

    Rom 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,..."
    This lifestyle is a judgment of attributing the things of God to say, nothing, like evolution does.

    24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
    Then again Paul reiterates in verse 26


    26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.........
    God gave them up.....verse 24 and verse 26. That sounds to me like the judgment of God.

    I have come to believe that the growing problem and how they are becoming bolder and more open can be understood as the manifesting of an earlier problem. From reading Romans 1 what we see is a result of the suppression of the truth. We need to be careful to not accept thier lifestyle but to declare that God says it is sin not us. Jesus received everybody, yet told them to "Go and sin no more".

    If as the article referenced above says that Jesus did not specifically address sin, then Jesus needs to be presented from the Old Testament like Paul, Peter, Stephen etc, did in the book of Acts. They need to see Jesus more than they need to see that God says homosexuality is sin.
    Mark


    “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:13-14

    (All Scripture quoted is from NKJV unless otherwise noted)

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    Re: Romans 1. Alternate views.

    Quote Originally Posted by glazer1972 View Post
    It is pretty much self explanatory. I don't think one should need an alternative interpretation of it.
    That is a good point. But the reason i ask is because if i can see what they are seeing, i can point out the error. Otherwise i have no idea why they think what they think... and i of course don't see what they see. Just thought i should clear that up so no one gets the wrong idea. I personally am not looking for a new interpretation.

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