It really means something else.

[Noeb]

We've all done it. What causes us to read a passage, including the context, and take a verse out of its context that says one thing and make it say something else entirely?
Then, why do we sometimes still hold to the wrong meaning, even after we have been shown we are in error, and it's obvious.

My example is "dying daily".

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

In all of these, the death is physical, persecution, and giving of yourself for the gospel. Not one instance in scripture is about overcoming sin. When this was pointed out to me, I thought, wow! Who turned on the lights? But for many years I've watched the majority of people I tell disagree, argue, deny it, and the worse part, continue in their self efforts to do what Jesus has already done.

Since Paul prayed this enlightenment would happen, it could be assumed some people just aren't ready to hear it. That begs the question why? Are they not ready or not willing, because some Christians do and sinners on the street and in prison hear it? Why would someone not be ready to hear they can be free right now and accomplish in the Spirit what they've been trying to accomplish in the flesh for years?

[jesse]

The first reason that comes to mind is because we all have pre- conceived notions of what is going on in scripture. Meaning that we were all taught by someone else and those ideas good or bad are the only way we can see things. I am reminded of the issue of Election versus Free Will. It is easy once you believe in either to see, whichever you believe, everywhere in the bible. Once a thought or way of thinking is in your head... it is hard to shake out.

Similarly, we all have agendas and ways of thought we are trying to express or defend and it is simply to easy to pick a verse and help it mean what we want.

But what i think you are talking about is the ability to read experience in to the scripture... we all experience things in our christian lives and when we read verses we aren't always seeing it for what it is... but we are putting a new meaning on it based on our experience. So we are reading our experience into the scripture. It is probably the easiest of the three things to do. And the hardest to unlearn because we have experience to back it up and who can take that from us?

[PJW]

I'm not really sure of what you're saying. Especially the "flesh" part at the end.
What are you free from? Committing sin, I hope?

[Noeb]

Ah. Thanks. That was a typo. It's supposed to read;

Why would someone not be ready to hear they can be free right now and accomplish in the Spirit what they've been trying to accomplish in the flesh for years?

Make more sense now?

Yes. Free from sin through his death and resurrection with us with him. We do not need to die to self because he crucified self. We only need to believe it.

[Noeb]

The first reason that comes to mind is because we all have pre- conceived notions of what is going on in scripture. Meaning that we were all taught by someone else and those ideas good or bad are the only way we can see things. I am reminded of the issue of Election versus Free Will. It is easy once you believe in either to see, whichever you believe, everywhere in the bible. Once a thought or way of thinking is in your head... it is hard to shake out.

Similarly, we all have agendas and ways of thought we are trying to express or defend and it is simply to easy to pick a verse and help it mean what we want.

But what i think you are talking about is the ability to read experience in to the scripture... we all experience things in our christian lives and when we read verses we aren't always seeing it for what it is... but we are putting a new meaning on it based on our experience. So we are reading our experience into the scripture. It is probably the easiest of the three things to do. And the hardest to unlearn because we have experience to back it up and who can take that from us?

Thanks jesse. I agree with all three, especially the last. The writers of the popular books on the subject base their findings on experience. People can relate, you know? I don't necessarily think it's intentional of course, they're just looking at things that are seen instead of of things not seen.

Another option is sin. Some may actually want to continue and like the idea of a long process, but I think most are just fearful, or in unbelief, and can't imagine being free from their 'strong hold' sins.

[Luciano Vinci]

We do not need to die to self because he crucified self. We only need to believe it.

Paul used "reckon ourselves dead" which goes beyond just believing; though I must admit, I don't really know the difference. Watchman Nee in "Normal Christianity" does a good job explaining what it means, however, I forget. I should read it again.

[Vhayes]

I think when Paul said he "died daily" he was referring to the fact that what Paul wanted didn't matter - the only thing that mattered was/is Christ in Him, the hope of glory.

By dying to "self" Paul was able to better see what Christ saw and what Christ would have him do. "Self" always wants what promotes self. If you are dead to self you are free to do whatever is asked/needed without concern for self promotion.

Hope that makes a little sense.

[shepherdsword]

We've all done it. What causes us to read a passage, including the context, and take a verse out of its context that says one thing and make it say something else entirely?
Then, why do we sometimes still hold to the wrong meaning, even after we have been shown we are in error, and it's obvious.

I am glad you said "we" because you are not excluding yourself

My example is "dying daily".

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

In all of these, the death is physical, persecution, and giving of yourself for the gospel. Not one instance in scripture is about overcoming sin. When this was pointed out to me, I thought, wow! Who turned on the lights? But for many years I've watched the majority of people I tell disagree, argue, deny it, and the worse part, continue in their self efforts to do what Jesus has already done.

The real issue is the old man that is corrupt in all of his deeds and is therefor the root of sin. We must reckon the old man dead because we have been crucified with Christ. Your statement about death to self not pertaining to sin is totally erroneous.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

If we do not reckon ourselves dead to sin then we will obey the lusts of our flesh. Is this not clear?

Since Paul prayed this enlightenment would happen, it could be assumed some people just aren't ready to hear it. That begs the question why? Are they not ready or not willing, because some Christians do and sinners on the street and in prison hear it? Why would someone not be ready to hear they can be free right now and accomplish in the Spirit what they've been trying to accomplish in the flesh for years?

You assume that you have been enlightened and that is your mistake. Jesus said this:

Joh_9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

The Pharisees thought they could see too.

You do not understand what it means to die to self. Whoever pointed out your definition to you didn't understand it either.

[episkopos]

We've all done it. What causes us to read a passage, including the context, and take a verse out of its context that says one thing and make it say something else entirely?
Then, why do we sometimes still hold to the wrong meaning, even after we have been shown we are in error, and it's obvious.

My example is "dying daily".

1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

In all of these, the death is physical, persecution, and giving of yourself for the gospel. Not one instance in scripture is about overcoming sin. When this was pointed out to me, I thought, wow! Who turned on the lights? But for many years I've watched the majority of people I tell disagree, argue, deny it, and the worse part, continue in their self efforts to do what Jesus has already done.

Since Paul prayed this enlightenment would happen, it could be assumed some people just aren't ready to hear it. That begs the question why? Are they not ready or not willing, because some Christians do and sinners on the street and in prison hear it? Why would someone not be ready to hear they can be free right now and accomplish in the Spirit what they've been trying to accomplish in the flesh for years?

This is of course a human interpretation! Do we reckon ourselves dead in Christ by physically lying down on the ground while holding a flower to our chest? One must understand that it takes the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual things. Jumping from one error to the other does not rule out that there in fact is a right way to understand something.

Walking in the Spirit requires that we be dead in Christ so as to walk in a new power...possessed of God so to speak.

Paul did not physically die daily. He let his own life go daily so that the life of Christ was made manifest in truth.

[Saved7]

Ah. Thanks. That was a typo. It's supposed to read;

Why would someone not be ready to hear they can be free right now and accomplish in the Spirit what they've been trying to accomplish in the flesh for years?

Make more sense now?

Yes. Free from sin through his death and resurrection with us with him. We do not need to die to self because he crucified self. We only need to believe it.

And believing it means living it out. Or am I missing something here?

[Noeb]

And believing it means living it out. Or am I missing something here?

No! You got it!!!!!!!!!!!

[Noeb]

Paul used "reckon ourselves dead" which goes beyond just believing; though I must admit, I don't really know the difference. Watchman Nee in "Normal Christianity" does a good job explaining what it means, however, I forget. I should read it again.

Thanks LV, but it's just an accounting term. Just something you do because you believe it. Nee invented words and gave words unbiblical meaning. Soul = 'Soul life', in The Spiritual Man, comes to mind.

[Noeb]

The real issue is the old man that is corrupt in all of his deeds and is therefor the root of sin. We must reckon the old man dead because we have been crucified with Christ. Your statement about death to self not pertaining to sin is totally erroneous.

You are more than welcome to post the contexts of these

Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

and show us where overcoming sin is.

You assume that you have been enlightened and that is your mistake.

I do not assume. It is the only thing that has given me and 100's I know, not to mention the millions I don't know, victory over sin and it always works, because it is the way of escape God has given.

Jesus said this:

Joh_9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

The Pharisees thought they could see too.

You do not understand what it means to die to self. Whoever pointed out your definition to you didn't understand it either.

Well here you are out of context again. This is about people that think they are saved and aren't and Jesus coming to help those that aren't see. Somehow you've managed to apply it to whether or not scripture says we die daily to sin.

[Noeb]

This is of course a human interpretation! Do we reckon ourselves dead in Christ by physically lying down on the ground while holding a flower to our chest?

No. We have been risen to newness of life. Therefore we believe and live as those alive from the dead. Is that a human interp?

Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

How can you say we should die?

One must understand that it takes the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual things.

That's what the thread is about. Why don't some hear? Thanks!

Jumping from one error to the other does not rule out that there in fact is a right way to understand something.

Amen!

Walking in the Spirit requires that we be dead in Christ so as to walk in a new power...possessed of God so to speak.

Amen!

Paul did not physically die daily.

Read it again.

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
1Co 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:


2Co 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
2Co 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2Co 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
2Co 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
2Co 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

He let his own life go daily so that the life of Christ was made manifest in truth.

Amen!

[Luciano Vinci]

Thanks LV, but it's just an accounting term. Just something you do because you believe it. Nee invented words and gave words unbiblical meaning. Soul = 'Soul life', in The Spiritual Man, comes to mind.

though I have not read the book, he is probably making reference to the difference between the soul life and the spirit life. since the English translation of soul/life (psuche) and life (zoe) are two different words yet are both most commonly translated as life. for instance Mt. 16:26-27 save your own life (psuche)...lose his own soul (psuche); and Rev. 12:11 they loved not their lives (psuche) unto death; as opposed to Jn. 3:16 ...shall have everlasting life (zoe); or Jn 10:10 ...life (zoe) more abundantly.

so we one says the soul (or psuche) life, it is different from the life (zoe) Jesus promised to those that believe. I think Nee was probably just trying to explain that distinction.

And we all use invented words that are not in Scripture, but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong. There is no mention of "Born-again Christians," the "rapture", "five-fold ministry", and other terms we throw around all the time in these forums and elsewhere. Don't be so hard on Nee, remember some of his thoughts could be lost in translation.