It really means something else.

[shepherdsword]

Truth is not derived simply by word searches in a concordance. It is obvious to practically everyone that Jesus is looking for a surrender to His will. Thy will be done..not mine. That is surrender. "I came to do the will of My Father...not My own". That is surrender. "No longer I but Christ"...that is surrender. Forsaking all to follow Christ...that is surrender. So rather than a pat verse we have a multitude of examples of surrender...for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

It cannot be denied that the cultivation of patience,has to be,by it's very nature a long process. Why are novices not allowed to be raised up? The answer is simple,they have yet to endure this process.

Jas 1:3 Knowing this,( in other words,understand the process) that the trying of your faith worketh patience.(once again,the process of testing and proving that transpires over time) Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect(matured over TIME) work,[/B](and again,let this process run it's full course unto completion) that ye may be perfect and entire,(why must we let this process come to full fruition? Why so that we may come to completion(teleioe translated "perfect") wanting nothing.

[Noeb]

Truth is not derived simply by word searches in a concordance. It is obvious to practically everyone that Jesus is looking for a surrender to His will. Thy will be done..not mine. That is surrender. "I came to do the will of My Father...not My own". That is surrender. "No longer I but Christ"...that is surrender. Forsaking all to follow Christ...that is surrender. So rather than a pat verse we have a multitude of examples of surrender...for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

Like I said, I agree, but we are talking about sanctification. I was looking for scripture for -surrender enabling one to overcome sin. IOW, someone may say I can't stop doing the sin or sinning, and the reason they are given is that they haven't surrendered. That if they truly surrendered God would then enable them to overcome the sin.

[episkopos]

Like I said, I agree, but we are talking about sanctification. I was looking for scripture for -surrender enabling one to overcome sin. IOW, someone may say I can't stop doing the sin or sinning, and the reason they are given is that they haven't surrendered. That if they truly surrendered God would then enable them to overcome the sin.

We do need to surrender in order to overcome all sin. The problem lies when we try to overcome sins...as in individual sins. But we are not to overcome sins but sin. So we can only overcome all sin in Christ. We surrender our lives and wills to God...and He empowers us to overcome.

[ewq1938]

I posted this in a different thread awhile ago:

Have you ever heard of modern doctrines that teach something about "dying to self" or something similar? It may sound intriguing but is it scriptural?


1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Cr 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die.


They might use these verses and suggest that Paul "died" to his carnal self etc but is that really what Paul was teaching?

Some use the misleading translation of "I die daily" and teach then that Paul is dying to self, to desires, to his carnal self and teach then that we should as well. It gets pretty new-agey in certain circles when the truth of the matter is that Paul was simply talking about how he faced death daily, not symbolically dying daily to his self or his sins or something along those lines:


(ALT) [I affirm] by my boasting [or, pride] in you* which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily [or, every day I am in danger of death].


(CEV) If the dead are not going to be raised to life, what will people do who are being baptized for them? Why are they being baptized for those dead people? And why do we always risk our lives and face death every day? The pride that I have in you because of Christ Jesus our Lord is what makes me say this. What do you think I gained by fighting wild animals in Ephesus? If the dead are not raised to life, "Let's eat and drink. Tomorrow we die."



(GNB) My friends, I face death every day! The pride I have in you, in our life in union with Christ Jesus our Lord, makes me declare this.


(GW) Brothers and sisters, I swear to you on my pride in you which Christ Jesus our Lord has given me: I face death every day.


(ISV) I face death every day! That is as certain, brothers, as it is that I am proud of you in Christ Jesus our Lord.


(MSG) I look death in the face practically every day I live. Do you think I'd do this if I wasn't convinced of your resurrection and mine as guaranteed by the resurrected Messiah Jesus?


(NLT) If the dead will not be raised, then what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again? And why should we ourselves be continually risking our lives, facing death hour by hour? For I swear, dear brothers and sisters, I face death daily. This is as certain as my pride in what the Lord Jesus Christ has done in you. And what value was there in fighting wild beasts-those men of Ephesus*-if there will be no resurrection from the dead? If there is no resurrection, "Let's feast and get drunk, for tomorrow we die!"


What do scholars say on this verse?


Barnes-

I die daily - compare Rom_8:36. I endure so many sufferings and persecutions, that it may be said to be a daily dying. I am constantly in danger of my life; and my sufferings each day are equal to the pains of death. Probably Paul here referred particularly to the perils and trials which he then endured at Ephesus; and his object was to impress their minds with the firmness of his belief in the certainty of the resurrection, on account of which he suffered so much, and to show them that all their hopes rested also on this doctrine.

Clarke-

I die daily - A form of speech for, I am continually exposed to death. The following passages will illustrate this. So Philo, p. 990. Flaccus, who was in continual fear of death, says: ?a?’ e??ast?? ??µe?a?, µa???? de ???a?, p??ap????s??, p?????? ?a?at??? ??p?µe??? a??’ e???? t?? te?e?ta???? “Every day, rather every hour, I anticipate death; enduring many deaths before that last one comes.” So Libanius, speaking of his own miseries and those of the people of Antioch, Epist. 1320, page 615, says: et? ???te? te????aµe?? “Though living, we are dead.” Livy has a similar form of expression to signify continual danger, xxix. 17: Quotidie capitur urbs nostra, quotidie diripitur. “Daily is our city taken, daily is it pillaged.”

Gill-

I die daily; which is to be understood, not in a spiritual sense of dying unto sin;

he instances in himself in particular, who was one that was in jeopardy or danger of his life every hour;

death was always working in him, he expected it every day, and was ready for it; he did not count his life dear unto himself, but was very willing to lay it down for the sake of Christ and his Gospel; which he would never have done, if he had not good reason to believe the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead.

VWS-

I die daily
I am in constant peril of my life. Compare 2Co_4:11; 2Co_11:23; Rom_8:36. So Clytaemnestra: “I have no rest by night, nor can I snatch from the day a sweet moment of repose to enfold me; but Time, ever standing over me, was as a jailer who conducted me to death” (Sophocles, “Electra,” 780, 781). And Philo: “And each day, nay, each hour, I die beforehand, enduring many deaths instead of one, the last.”

Wesley-

1Co 15:31 - I protest by your rejoicing, which I have - Which love makes my own. I die daily - I am daily in the very jaws of death. Beside that I live, as it were, in a daily martyrdom.

Henry-

He was in continual danger of death, and carried his life, as we say, in his hand. And why should he thus expose himself, if he had no hopes after life? To live in daily view and expectation of death, and yet have no prospect beyond it, must be very heartless and uncomfortable, and his case, upon this account, a very melancholy one. He had need be very well assured of the resurrection of the dead, or he was guilty of extreme weakness, in hazarding all that was dear to him in this world, and his life into the bargain.

JFB-

I die daily--This ought to stand first in the sentence, as it is so put prominently forward in the Greek. I am day by day in sight of death, exposed to it, and expecting it (2Co_4:11-12; 2Co_1:8-9; 2Co_11:23).

Its pretty simple. Paul was merely saying he faced death on a daily basis and he wouldn't be doing that if he didn't truly believe that he would be resurrected after dying. If there was no afterlife, then there would be no reason to risk his life so often or at all.


I Corinthians 15:32 "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."


Paul is referring to Isaiah


Isaiah 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.


Paul is telling us that if He didn't believe that Christ was raised from the dead his purpose in life would no more gratifying than killing these animals for the day to day existence man lives.


Christ did die and He is resurrected, and there is a purpose for facing death in preaching the gospel. It is worth it all.


While the concept of symbolically "dying" to your own personal desires and sins can be a valid concept (if properly understood and properly taught) it is not what Paul was talking about in these verses.

[episkopos]

I posted this in a different thread awhile ago:

Have you ever heard of modern doctrines that teach something about "dying to self" or something similar? It may sound intriguing but is it scriptural?


1Cr 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Cr 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die.


They might use these verses and suggest that Paul "died" to his carnal self etc but is that really what Paul was teaching?

Some use the misleading translation of "I die daily" and teach then that Paul is dying to self, to desires, to his carnal self and teach then that we should as well. It gets pretty new-agey in certain circles when the truth of the matter is that Paul was simply talking about how he faced death daily, not symbolically dying daily to his self or his sins or something along those lines:


(ALT) [I affirm] by my boasting [or, pride] in you* which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily [or, every day I am in danger of death].


(CEV) If the dead are not going to be raised to life, what will people do who are being baptized for them? Why are they being baptized for those dead people? And why do we always risk our lives and face death every day? The pride that I have in you because of Christ Jesus our Lord is what makes me say this. What do you think I gained by fighting wild animals in Ephesus? If the dead are not raised to life, "Let's eat and drink. Tomorrow we die."



(GNB) My friends, I face death every day! The pride I have in you, in our life in union with Christ Jesus our Lord, makes me declare this.


(GW) Brothers and sisters, I swear to you on my pride in you which Christ Jesus our Lord has given me: I face death every day.


(ISV) I face death every day! That is as certain, brothers, as it is that I am proud of you in Christ Jesus our Lord.


(MSG) I look death in the face practically every day I live. Do you think I'd do this if I wasn't convinced of your resurrection and mine as guaranteed by the resurrected Messiah Jesus?


(NLT) If the dead will not be raised, then what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again? And why should we ourselves be continually risking our lives, facing death hour by hour? For I swear, dear brothers and sisters, I face death daily. This is as certain as my pride in what the Lord Jesus Christ has done in you. And what value was there in fighting wild beasts-those men of Ephesus*-if there will be no resurrection from the dead? If there is no resurrection, "Let's feast and get drunk, for tomorrow we die!"


What do scholars say on this verse?


Barnes-







Clarke-




Gill-











VWS-





Wesley-





Henry-





JFB-









Its pretty simple. Paul was merely saying he faced death on a daily basis and he wouldn't be doing that if he didn't truly believe that he would be resurrected after dying. If there was no afterlife, then there would be no reason to risk his life so often or at all.


I Corinthians 15:32 "If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."


Paul is referring to Isaiah


Isaiah 22:13 And behold joy and gladness, slaying oxen, and killing sheep, eating flesh, and drinking wine: let us eat and drink; for to morrow we shall die.


Paul is telling us that if He didn't believe that Christ was raised from the dead his purpose in life would no more gratifying than killing these animals for the day to day existence man lives.


Christ did die and He is resurrected, and there is a purpose for facing death in preaching the gospel. It is worth it all.


While the concept of symbolically "dying" to your own personal desires and sins can be a valid concept (if properly understood and properly taught) it is not what Paul was talking about in these verses.

2Co_4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2Co_4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

[Noeb]

It cannot be denied that the cultivation of patience,has to be,by it's very nature a long process. Why are novices not allowed to be raised up? The answer is simple,they have yet to endure this process.

Jas 1:3 Knowing this,( in other words,understand the process) that the trying of your faith worketh patience.(once again,the process of testing and proving that transpires over time) Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect(matured over TIME) work,[/B](and again,let this process run it's full course unto completion) that ye may be perfect and entire,(why must we let this process come to full fruition? Why so that we may come to completion(teleioe translated "perfect") wanting nothing.

This is not about overcoming sin.

[Noeb]

We do need to surrender in order to overcome all sin. The problem lies when we try to overcome sins...as in individual sins. But we are not to overcome sins but sin. So we can only overcome all sin in Christ. We surrender our lives and wills to God...and He empowers us to overcome.

Didn't you say earlier that we overcome sin, then God shows us more, then we overcome those, and God shows us more....etc?

[Noeb]

2Co_4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2Co_4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Yes. See that word "body"?

2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

[episkopos]

Didn't you say earlier that we overcome sin, then God shows us more, then we overcome those, and God shows us more....etc?

We overcome all sin as we walk in the Spirit. But God is trying to have us bear more fruit so He will put us through trials for character's sake. So He provides the purity, and we are to progressively provide the maturity unto the fulness of Christ. God just doesn't want us to not sin...He wants us to learn to love and not look to anything or anyone but Him.

[episkopos]

Yes. See that word "body"?

2Co 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.
2Co 11:24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.
2Co 11:25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;
2Co 11:26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;
2Co 11:27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.
2Co 11:28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.
2Co 11:29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
2Co 11:30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
2Co 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

"We have this treasure in earthen vessels (bodies)".


2Co_4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

We are not just a spirit and a body. We have a soul from which come envies and wrath, jealousies and prides...Because we are individuals we will be tempted in this way...that is until we truly begin to see that we are in the brethren and the brethren are in us. There is no maturity without this community in the Spirit. When we learn to surrender to God AND the brethren, then we will have both purity AND maturity.

[Noeb]

We overcome all sin as we walk in the Spirit. But God is trying to have us bear more fruit so He will put us through trials for character's sake. So He provides the purity, and we are to progressively provide the maturity unto the fulness of Christ. God just doesn't want us to not sin...He wants us to learn to love and not look to anything or anyone but Him.

This plainly states why and how (a law) you are free from sin.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This plainly says you are in the Spirit and not in the flesh if you have the Spirit. This is position.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

We agree in order to overcome sin we must walk in the Spirit (our position). So if you want to walk in the Spirit (your position) you have to follow (walk after) the Spirit, which is
.............what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

As pointed out. Paul speaks of instant results, not a process. In Romans 7 he struggled with sin, then realized this truth, that through Christ he is delivered from the law of sin and death. So how can you continue in sin, seeing you have been baptized into his death, burial, and resurrection to WALK in newness of life?

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

[Noeb]

"We have this treasure in earthen vessels (bodies)".


2Co_4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

We are not just a spirit and a body. We have a soul from which come envies and wrath, jealousies and prides...Because we are individuals we will be tempted in this way...that is until we truly begin to see that we are in the brethren and the brethren are in us. There is no maturity without this community in the Spirit. When we learn to surrender to God AND the brethren, then we will have both purity AND maturity.

Context. Paul and Timothy have ministry, gospel, treasure.

Compare
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Context
2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Co 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
2Co 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
2Co 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
2Co 1:8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Co 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
2Co 1:11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.
2Co 1:12 For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
2Co 1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
2Co 1:14 As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.

you get the idea

2Co 1:15 And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;
2Co 1:16 And to pass by you into Macedonia, and to come again out of Macedonia unto you, and of you to be brought on my way toward Judaea.
2Co 1:17 When I therefore was thus minded, did I use lightness? or the things that I purpose, do I purpose according to the flesh, that with me there should be yea yea, and nay nay?
2Co 1:18 But as God is true, our word toward you was not yea and nay.
2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2Co 1:23 Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
2Co 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
2Co 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
2Co 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

2Co 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Compare
1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

1Co 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Co 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
1Co 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

[Noeb]

Ok. Did you catch it? Anyone?

This is used to promote a dying to soulish self to sin, in a long process that people call sanctification.
2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2Co 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
2Co 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

But the very same death is spoken of here in context concerning just Paul and Timothy.
2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:
2Co 1:2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
2Co 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
2Co 1:6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.
2Co 1:7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.
2Co 1:8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
2Co 1:9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
2Co 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
2Co 1:11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.

And it says that believers at Corinth helped in Paul and Timothy's deliverance from death through their prayers. And that the death the preachers went through gave life to the hearers.

You cannot tell me, or anyone with the mind of Christ, that this is death of the soul to sin, when it is clearly a physical death that God delivered, delivers, and will deliver from!!!!!!!!

How can Paul be telling them to go through a death, they prayed Paul and Timothy would be delivered from?

Instead, Paul said the death he and Timothy went and go through, is what gave the Corinthians life in Christ!

2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2Co 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

We have GOT TO study and understand scripture IN CONTEXT.
End of Story

[shepherdsword]

You can't tell me that you can refuse to pick up your cross and follow Jesus and still calls yourself his disciple.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


After all...does it "really mean something else"?

[Noeb]

You can't tell me that you can refuse to pick up your cross and follow Jesus and still calls yourself his disciple.

Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.


After all...does it "really mean something else"?

v22 -slain, take up His cross
v23 -come after me (do the same) and take your cross
v24-25 -save life/lose it, lose life for my sake/save it -gain the whole world
v26 -ashamed of me
v27 -some will not taste death til

First thing we notice is real physical death in vs22 and 27. In this we also recognize Jesus had to choose the will of the Father over his own.

Then Jesus said do the same right after saying he would be "slain". In another book "be killed".

Then, if you are not willing to do these things you will lose your life. If you do these things for my sake, note; not your sake, it will save your life. Verse 25 starts with "for", continuing from verse 24's "save his life". So "save his life" goes with "gain the whole world". Here again Jesus tells us what he is talking about, like he did elsewhere. If they put their business or career and worldly things before him, and choose to continue in that life to get things of this world and continue as they were, instead of confessing Jesus and preaching, they would lose their soul. You have to understand the line in the sand that was about to be drawn and the persecution the church was about to be put through.

Another reason to not do it would be shame. The cross is considered weak and weakness. Paul talks about this in 1Corinthians 1-2. So the individual is not willing to publically profess Christ and preach that him crucified is the answer. Do you see a trend here? This is ALL about establishing his church by sending out these disciples to preach. It doesn't have a thing to do with dying to sin.

We see physical death again in v27.

We know Jesus closed his carpentry business and did all of the above. We have Paul's writings of him doing all of the above. We have Peter writing to the scattered and have the book of Hebrews and know church history. We know others did, but are you telling me that if I don't do as Jesus said here, and what Paul did, that I cannot be saved? Through much persecution we enter the kingdom of God. Our cross is physical persecution and giving up our lives for his sake, not ours. That's what it says right? So who here has done this, even a fraction of what they did? I personally would not dare compare the small things I have experienced to Jesus' words, Paul's, and history. Would you shepherdsword?