Thorn in the flesh

[RollTide21]

Thorn in Flesh = angel of satan = demon

How would this explain that, through this "thorn", God's strength was made perfect in WEAKNESS?

Would you say that Paul's "weakness" was an inability to ward off the demon?

[RollTide21]

The passage plainly tells you what it is. "Angelos of Satan." That would be a demonic spirit. It only get complicated if you try to make it that way.

It seems to me that the "messenger of satan" is the thorn, but the question is what manner did this demonic force manifest itself. I've always thought that the demon struck Paul in some way that resulted in some physical, mental, Spiritual problem.

[RollTide21]

Due to Paul's spiritual knowledge through experience, learning, and straight up Holy Spirit revelation, Paul called the problem for what it was. He wrote it clearly as such... the problem was caused BY a messenger "OF" satan, so Paul was calling the problem exactly for what it was... demonic in origin. The "symptoms" may have been physical in nature, but the cause of the problem was spiritual.

To quote another poster: "Hooah!"

[vanguard]

Thorn in Flesh = angel of satan = demon

AMEN^^^^^^^^^^^^This

[vanguard]

It amazes me that 99% of Christians go out of their way to complicate a very simple passage. The passage plainly says that the thorn was "an angelos of Satan." What is so hard to understand about that?

Yes, the bible is so simple we need help to misunderstand it, and boy have we had a lot of help.

[claybevan]

Yes, the bible is so simple we need help to misunderstand it, and boy have we had a lot of help.

I believe I may be one of the 99%, recognition at last Although in some verses it is quite plain that Paul refers to an angel of satan being his thorn, it doesn't stop us wondering what form it may have taken. Saying it was merely people opposing his word or being under attack from a demon must of applied to many of the apostles but it doesn't answer verses like,
Gal.4:13
'And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus'

I wasn't trying to make things complicated, just trying to understand all his referrals to 'His Thorn'

[vanguard]

I believe I may be one of the 99%, recognition at last Although in some verses it is quite plain that Paul refers to an angel of satan being his thorn, it doesn't stop us wondering what form it may have taken. Saying it was merely people opposing his word or being under attack from a demon must of applied to many of the apostles but it doesn't answer verses like,
Gal.4:13
'And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus'

I wasn't trying to make things complicated, just trying to understand all his referrals to 'His Thorn'

Oh i understand what you mean, and i know Paul must have gotten sick or hurt at times , I am a word of Faith person but I know that Paul went through hell on earth to do what he did. as far as the thorn goes ,I believe that was a totaly separate issue with him and was not a sickness.

[ewq1938]

Paul speaks much about his physical infirmities:

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
2Co 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Whatever this reference to "the messenger of Satan" is, it is very clearly directly related to Paul's fleshly, physical limitations and infirmities. This is no harassment by some evil devil unless that harassment is physical harm. I recall satan having the power and authority to harm Job physically so I believe this could be a similar case. While Job thought God was punishing him, Paul knows that his infirmities come ultimately from satan.

2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Again he speaks of weakness and infirmities. In our modern times we are used to assuming physical issues are simply failings of the body and rarely seriuosly consider satan or a servant of his could be afflicting us with infirmities to try to weaken our service to Christ and others.

[vanguard]

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[ewq1938]

Paul's thorn in the flesh was a wicked spirit or angel sent by Satan to buffet him. Buffet means to strike repeatedly.

As I mention in the last post, this certainly could be true but the "buffeting" is definitely Paul receiving physical issues in his flesh body as his context spells out.

God does not send wicked spirits against people in the Body of Christ for any reason (James 1:13).

James makes no such commentary, however God does allow satan to harm people as in the case of Job.

However:

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.


Here God does send an evil spirit upon one of his own. It also should not be thought as coincidence that here we have a man named Saul, which is Paul's former name. In both cases God has permitted evil to "buffet" someone.

Clarke:

An evil spirit from the Lord - The evil spirit was either immediately sent from the Lord, or permitted to come. Whether this was a diabolic possession, or a mere mental malady, the learned are not agreed; it seems to have partaken of both. That Saul had fallen into a deep melancholy, there is little doubt; that the devil might work more effectually on such a state of mind, there can be but little question. There is an old proverb, Satan delights to fish in troubled waters; and Saul’s situation of mind gave him many advantages.

[vanguard]

As I mention in the last post, this certainly could be true but the "buffeting" is definitely Paul receiving physical issues in his flesh body as his context spells out.

God does not send wicked spirits against people in the Body of Christ for any reason (James 1:13).

James makes no such commentary, however God does allow satan to harm people as in the case of Job.

However:

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.
1Sa 16:16 Let our lord now command thy servants, which are before thee, to seek out a man, who is a cunning player on an harp: and it shall come to pass, when the evil spirit from God is upon thee, that he shall play with his hand, and thou shalt be well.


Here God does send an evil spirit upon one of his own. It also should not be thought as coincidence that here we have a man named Saul, which is Paul's former name. In both cases God has permitted evil to "buffet" someone.

Clarke:

An evil spirit from the Lord - The evil spirit was either immediately sent from the Lord, or permitted to come. Whether this was a diabolic possession, or a mere mental malady, the learned are not agreed; it seems to have partaken of both. That Saul had fallen into a deep melancholy, there is little doubt; that the devil might work more effectually on such a state of mind, there can be but little question. There is an old proverb, Satan delights to fish in troubled waters; and Saul’s situation of mind gave him many advantages.

OK you said " but the "buffeting" is definitely Paul receiving physical issues in his flesh body " well if that is true then he also beat himself up..............
1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Amplified Bible (AMP)


26 Therefore I do not run uncertainly (without definite aim). I do not box like one beating the air and striking without an adversary.

27 But [like a boxer] I buffet my body [handle it roughly, discipline it by hardships] and subdue it, for fear that after proclaiming to others the Gospel and things pertaining to it, I myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit].


1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


26 I, therefore, thus run, not as uncertainly, thus I fight, as not beating air;

27 but I chastise my body, and bring [it] into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others -- I myself may become disapproved.



I don,t think paul hurt himself, it is a figure of speech.

[ewq1938]

OK you said " but the "buffeting" is definitely Paul receiving physical issues in his flesh body " well if that is true then he also beat himself up..............
1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Amplified Bible (AMP)


26 Therefore I do not run uncertainly (without definite aim). I do not box like one beating the air and striking without an adversary.

27 But [like a boxer] I buffet my body [handle it roughly, discipline it by hardships] and subdue it, for fear that after proclaiming to others the Gospel and things pertaining to it, I myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit].


1 Corinthians 9:26-27

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


26 I, therefore, thus run, not as uncertainly, thus I fight, as not beating air;

27 but I chastise my body, and bring [it] into servitude, lest by any means, having preached to others -- I myself may become disapproved.



I don,t think paul hurt himself, it is a figure of speech.

This translation makes it clearer:

1Co 9:22 To the weak I became weak in order to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some of them.
1Co 9:23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel in order to have a share in its blessings.
1Co 9:24 You know that in a race all the runners run but only one wins the prize, don't you? You must run in such a way that you may be victorious.
1Co 9:25 Everyone who enters an athletic contest practices self-control in everything. They do it to win a wreath that withers away, but we run to win a prize that never fades.

1Co 9:26 That is the way I run, with a clear goal in mind. That is the way I fight, not like someone shadow boxing.
1Co 9:27 No, I keep on disciplining my body, making it serve me so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not somehow be disqualified.


As for the thorn in his flesh, whatever it was it was in his flesh and it has already been posted how often he spoke of physical limitations and infirmaries.

[vanguard]

Again.
A thorn in the flesh is a term not a fact, it would be in todays talk "A pain in the neck" some thing, but then he tells you what it was ;a messenger of the Adversary,


the greek word is the same as angel.


2 Corinthians 12:7

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


7 and that by the exceeding greatness of the revelations I might not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of the Adversary, that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted overmuch.


2 Corinthians 12:7

Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

⁷ And lest the greatness of revelations enhance me in pride, the prick of my flesh, an angel of Satan, is given to me, that he buffet me.



2 Corinthians 12:7

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

⁷ Therefore, to keep me from becoming overly proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from the Adversary to pound away at me, so that I wouldn’t grow conceited.

[shepherdsword]

I am confused about why there is so much controversy over something that Paul clearly defined?

2C 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

We see that Paul is telling us very clearly that the thorn in the flesh was the messenger of satan.Why is this so hard to understand?

[vanguard]

I am confused about why there is so much controversy over something that Paul clearly defined?

2C 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

We see that Paul is telling us very clearly that the thorn in the flesh was the messenger of satan.Why is this so hard to understand?

I have no clue?