Thorn in the flesh

[vanguard]

It is so strange that people will fight to make it look like paul was sick for some reason, when jesus spent 3 1/2 years healing EVERYBODY that came to him in FAITH, but Jesus would let his main man be sick....makes no sence at all to me. but then again Jesus was always getting on the his disciples for having no FAITH or for not Calming the storm or casting out devils. so could paul have missed it ? or was he perfect and knew everything.

[Athanasius]

It is so strange that people will fight to make it look like paul was sick for some reason, when jesus spent 3 1/2 years healing EVERYBODY that came to him in FAITH, but Jesus would let his main man be sick....makes no sence at all to me. but then again Jesus was always getting on the his disciples for having no FAITH or for not Calming the storm or casting out devils. so could paul have missed it ? or was he perfect and knew everything.

He did? Did Jesus resurrect John the Baptist?

[ewq1938]

It is so strange that people will fight to make it look like paul was sick for some reason,

Paul described himself as being sick with infirmities. Those of us that support this is because it's written to be a fact.

"For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible." (2 Cor 10:10)
"... Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." (2 Cor 12:9)

when jesus spent 3 1/2 years healing EVERYBODY that came to him in FAITH, but Jesus would let his main man be sick....makes no sence at all to me.

It makes perfect sense as it kept Paul humble. Paul glorified in his infirmities!

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

but then again Jesus was always getting on the his disciples for having no FAITH or for not Calming the storm or casting out devils. so could paul have missed it ? or was he perfect and knew everything.

Paul was not perfect nor did he know everything. The insinuation is ridiculous.

[vanguard]

You keep saying " infirmities " that word is better translated WEAKNESS not SICKNESS....a little study goes a long way.


Paul was not perfect nor did he know everything. The insinuation is ridiculous.
Really ? that is what you make it sound like, it must be Gods fault and paul had no part to play.

[Athanasius]

You keep saying " infirmities " that word is better translated WEAKNESS not SICKNESS....a little study goes a long way.

Paul was not perfect nor did he know everything. The insinuation is ridiculous.
Really ? that is what you make it sound like, it must be Gods fault and paul had no part to play.

Did Jesus heal John the Baptist?

[vanguard]

Did Jesus heal John the Baptist?

we are dealing with Paul not john, don,t jump around the facts about Paul.

[Athanasius]

we are dealing with Paul not john, don,t jump around the facts about Paul.

You said that Jesus healed everyone that came to him in faith. Well, did he heal John the Baptist?

[ewq1938]

You keep saying " infirmities " that word is better translated WEAKNESS not SICKNESS....a little study goes a long way.

It takes very little time of study to learn that the translators and scholars for the KJV agreed on the word infirmities. It is more than proper for me to use the same word they did, and odd for anyone to suggest that it's a poor choice as you have. Let's bring this discussion back up to a more decent and less petty level please.

So far no one has commented on the fact that Paul was unable to visually identify who the chief priest was despite the priest's unique dress and Paul's history of being around these same peoples. Such silence tells me there is no counter argument to be made. Thus, Paul did have poor eyesight. That should bear heavily on the other scriptures where poor eyesight might have been mentioned or played a large part.

[vanguard]

Mod note.

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[vanguard]

Mod note.

Copyrighted material deleted.

Unless you are the original author of copyrighted material If you post copyrighted material you must also provide a description and a link. Please acquaint yourself with our rules.

If you have any questions or concerns about this please start a thread in the chat to mods sections.

BrianW

[Athanasius]

Was it an eye disease?
Gal 4:15 What then was the blessing you enjoyed? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your own eyes and given them to me.

Some interpret this to mean that they would have plucked out their eyes and given them to Paul because his eyes were bad. Of course this is merely a figure of speech indicating that the people loved him and were concerned for him.

Gal 6:11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!

Some interpret this to mean that he wrote his letters large because he could barely see.

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Evidence against eye disease
In 2 Corinthians 11 and 12, the word infirmity is consistently used for Paul's hardships, trials and persecutions as a result of his preaching the gospel, and not for physical sickness.
In Galatians 4:15, the phrase plucked out your own eyes certainly expresses the Galatians' very real and intense love and concern for Paul's condition. But remember, he had just been stoned (Acts 14:19) and perhaps his eyes were puffed up, cut up and badly bruised like a prize fighter after a fight.
In Acts 19:12, people carried handkerchiefs or aprons from his body to the sick for healing. Nowhere in the Bible do we have a sick man healing the sick. Also, if Paul's eye disease were contagious like some say, would people have been willing to even touch his clothing?
It was customary for Paul to end his letters with the phrase with my own hand, indicating that he wrote the salutation or in some cases the whole letter with his own hand instead of dictating it to a scribe to write. Paul may have done this as a way of validating that it was he who wrote the letter and that the letter was not a forgery (see 2 Thess 2:2).
In Galatians 6:11 Paul refers to the large letters he has written. The King James Version translates this phrase as "How large a letter." Also, the word translated "letter" in Galatians 6:11 sometimes refers to letters of the alphabet and sometimes to letters of correspondence. Perhaps the letter to the Galatians was packaged with some other letters and together it constituted a large letter.
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What does the phrase "pluck out their eyes" mean?
There is a passage in the New Testament in which Jesus talks about plucking out your eyes. The phrase is used as a figure of speech to indicate the seriousness of the situation. Jesus is not recommending that we literally pluck out our eyes.

Mark 9:47 "And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire;

Jesus is using this phrase as a figure of speech to express the idea that going to hell is the worst possible fate.

Paul is likely using this same phrase in Gal 4:15 to indicate the depth of their love for him, but it sounds like the people did recognize that Paul had a problem with his eyes and wished they could help him with that. But of course they couldn't.

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What does Paul mean by the phrase "with my own hand"?
The following are examples of ways that Paul closed his letters:

Gal 6:11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!

1 Cor 16:21 The salutation with my own hand; Paul's.

Col 4:18 This salutation by my own hand; Paul. Remember my chains. Grace be with you. Amen.

2 Th 3:17 The salutation of Paul with my own hand, which is a sign in every epistle; so I write.

Phile 1:19 I, Paul, am writing with my own hand. I will repay; not to mention to you that you owe me even your own self besides.

The following expresses why it was so important to Paul that people knew whether a letter was really written by him or whether it was forged:

2 Th 2:1, 2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

Note that only in the passage in Gal 6:11 does Paul refer to large letters. But if Paul wrote using large letters because he had an eye disease and couldn't see, wouldn't he have written all his letters using large letters?

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What does Paul mean by the phrase "large letters"?
Gal 6:11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand!

The word translated letter in Galatians 6:11 sometimes refers to letters of the alphabet and sometimes to letters of correspondence. Perhaps the letter to the Galatians was packaged with some other letters and together it constituted a large letter.

The King James Version has how large a letter here. Apparently the translators thought that Paul was referring to a written letter and not letters of the alphabet.

Acts 28:21 Then they said to him, "We neither received letters from Judea concerning you, nor have any of the brethren who came reported or spoken any evil of you.

The word letters is the same Greek word as used in Gal 6:11. Here it clearly refers to letters of correspondence and not to letters of the alphabet.

Hey! Did God heal John the Baptist?

[HoboTone]

http://www.bovministries.net/Pauls_T...the_Flesh.html

I am alone right now, and still couldn't help but cheer out loud when I read this. I am no closer to figuring out what the "thorn" actually was, but this is the best little rant I've heard so far......Reps to you, Vanguard.