The Branch

[Beloved65]

I believe you pretty much have it on the nose in the OT the Branch refers to Jesus, and in the the NT it refers to us believers who have been grafted into Israel.

And speak unto him saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the Man whose name is The BRANCH; and He shall grow up out of the His place, and He shall build the Temple of the LORD:
Zechariah 6:12
We see in Malachi 3:1, that Jesus came to the Temple of the Old Covenant, but from what Zechariah tells us, Jesus would build the Temple of the LORD. So how did Jesus build the Temple of the LORD, IMO by fulfilling the true promise of the Feast of Tabernacles, for during this Feast (John 7:2), Jesus promises all who believed on Him the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39). If we remember that Paul also state that because of the Holy Spirit we are all the Temple of God (I Corinthians 3:16; 6:19-20), well IMO this makes us a Branch because we have the Living God dwelling in us just as John 15, refers to us abiding in Him and His Words abiding in us (John 15:5-7). So Jesus is the Branch that created the NT Temple, and we have become the Branch because the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, makes us the Temple of the LORD.

[Beloved65]

God makes a promise to Isaac in Genesis 26.

2 The Lord appeared to Isaac and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live. 3 Stay in this land for a while, and I will be with you and will bless you. For to you and your descendants I will give all these lands and will confirm the oath I swore to your father Abraham. 4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed.

Aha. Why? The verse continues

Because Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My instructions."

So I don't know what this means "time of the law". On the one hand, there is no doubt that the Jews (or "Hebrews" or "Israelites" or whatever term you prefer) made a covenant at Sinai to keep the law. On the other hand, it seems that Abraham was already keeping the law hundreds of years earlier.

I think Paul dealt with this in Galatians 3:13-17.
16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He said not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one. And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17) And this I say that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Galatians 3:16-17

[Fenris]

I was referring to my earlier statement about the law of Moses. "Was Abraham under the law of Moses?" Abraham could not have been under the law of Moses which, as you pointed out, the Israelites had agreed to keep, Abraham was an ancestor of Moses

The problem is that you refer to it as "the law of Moses", as if he was the originator of it. The law came from God, and Abraham did apparently keep it.

As early as Cain and Able we see animal sacrifice having been required by God.

Not what the bible says. The issue was that Abel gave his best and Cain didn't. Further, even after Sinai the poor are permitted to bring flour sacrifice in lieu of animals.

[jesse]

The problem is that you refer to it as "the law of Moses", as if he was the originator of it. The law came from God, and Abraham did apparently keep it.

Perhaps Abraham did. Perhaps he didn't. My point being that we see things progressing over time. Different ages. What is sin for one (to not build an ark) is not always sin for all (we don't build arks) Assuming the law of Moses was always in effect is simply an assumption. There are clearly some rules for one group or person not given to others groups or persons. Certainly God was the originator of the law of Moses. But it was specifically given by Moses at a certain time and place. But it really matters very little either way as regarding my point.

Not what the bible says. The issue was that Abel gave his best and Cain didn't.

Is that what it says?

Further, even after Sinai the poor are permitted to bring flour sacrifice in lieu of animals.

In lieu of animals yes. As in... here is something i want, but if you don't have it, bring something else.

I must admit, I have no idea what you believe or how you see the bible as applying to people so most of the time, i have no idea what you are getting at. I assume you are jewish but i don't know for sure. I can see what you are saying in this regard... although i don't know exactly how you would cut it. I could see where the law existed before Moses (although i don't necessarily agree) ... but i can't see all 613 laws being applicable to Adam and Eve before the fall. However, i am going by what is revealed... and it seems to be revealed in order... sacrificial laws being instituted directly after the fall but before laws that would apply to Israel as a nation. (although i suppose those could have been around I don't know why they would be.)

Tell me, do you think Adam and Eve, before the fall, had all 613 laws that Israel was given?

[jesse]

Well, we are talking different items. While you are focusing on vines and figs, I am speaking of grafting and cutting off. I see no significance to vines verses figs. I focus on the issue of fruit bearing and the response when we fail to.

Sorry about wasting your time.

It is not a waste of time. My best guess is that you are talking about the "fruit of the spirit" sort of.

[Fenris]

Perhaps Abraham did. Perhaps he didn't.

God says that he did.

My point being that we see things progressing over time. Different ages. What is sin for one (to not build an ark) is not always sin for all (we don't build arks)

I'm not following this point. God gave Noah a specific instruction. The order to build an ark was not given to all people forever.

Assuming the law of Moses was always in effect is simply an assumption.

I'm not certain what this term means, "in effect".

Is that what it says?

Genesis 4: 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering...

Yep, that's what it says.

In lieu of animals yes. As in... here is something i want, but if you don't have it, bring something else.

The point being, God accepts sacrifices that are not animals.

I must admit, I have no idea what you believe or how you see the bible as applying to people so most of the time, i have no idea what you are getting at. I assume you are jewish but i don't know for sure.

I am.

Tell me, do you think Adam and Eve, before the fall, had all 613 laws that Israel was given?

No. As per the bible, they had only two.

[jesse]

God says that he did.


I'm not following this point. God gave Noah a specific instruction. The order to build an ark was not given to all people forever.

Exactly. I think you are following quite well.

I'm not certain what this term means, "in effect".

"in effect" meaning you said regarding the laws given to Adam and Eve "as per the bible they had only the two" So then they didn't have all the laws. So at some point between the two laws... and 613 laws.... the laws increased by 611(somewhat inaccurate as I doubt not eating the fruit of the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was a law carried over into the next age. Which was exactly my point...)? I know when the bible says it happened. But when do you think it happened? I am not condemning you for believing something different. I just want to know where you think it happened. So to sum up... "in effect" meaning when were the other laws given by God to man?

Genesis 4: 3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering...

Yep, that's what it says.

I admit it could be interpreted your way. But it doesn't out right say either way as far as i can tell. So i will give you the benefit of the doubt.

The point being, God accepts sacrifices that are not animals.

I am sure we agree on that point. Although, for different reasons.

I am.

I was kinda hoping for a brief overview of how you think it went down historically. But that's fine.

No. As per the bible, they had only two.

So then?

I think my whole point is that not everything in the bible applies to everyone through all ages.

EDIT I meant to address this verse...

Because Abraham hearkened to My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My instructions."

I think it is talking about only the commands and statutes and instructions that Abraham had at the time. I see what you are saying don't get me wrong. But it would seem far more logical to me to believe he was talking about what God had revealed up to this point as opposed to reading back into it that he had all of the laws that Israel had at the time of Moses. (there is a lot of rereading back into things in Christianity which is troubling to me.) I am sure you have noticed that many Christians see the word "Israel" and read it "church" which is the most annoying thing I have ever come across. But i digress.

[Fenris]

I think it is talking about only the commands and statutes and instructions that Abraham had at the time.

What instructions were given by God at that time?

It's possible to tease clues out of the text. For example, when Abraham's nephew Lot has guests he serves them "matzos". Yes, the kind we eat on passover. It's been said that Abraham taught him to eat Matzo on passover, and he had guests on passover and served it to them. You can take that or leave it, of course. It's also been said that Abraham was spiritually sensitive enough to be able to intuit the law even without having been told. So while it was not incumbent on him to follow it, he did so anyway. Again, you can take that or leave it too. You seem open-minded enough to understand my points even if you disagree with them.

[jesse]

What instructions were given by God at that time?

A lot less than it appears people were following. I will certainly give you that much.

You know... People in my denomination believe in different "ages" so to speak, where God dealt with people in different ways. My bible (probably not yours) mentions only two... the dispensation of Grace. (Church age) and the dispensation of the fullness of times (when the messiah returns to reign for 1000 years) The other dispensations, such as dispensation of law are only implied by the idea and never mentioned outright. So perhaps you are on to something with this. Similarly, i often wonder if a Jewish guy who becomes a Christian is supposed to keep the law. It would seem that all the disciples did.... Although the gentiles were not told to. I have lots of thinking to do i guess.

Although I would still have to wonder when people started following the law and or when it became applicable.

[HeIsLord]

I was studying Isa. 4 today and had a thought about the Branch. It seems like the translators always have this word in caps in the Old Testament, obviously in reference to the Messiah/God. However, every NT reference to branches always seem to refer to Christ the Body and not Christ the Head. Jesus is referred to as the Vine/Tree and we (His Body) are referred to as the branch (i.e. Jn. 15). Even in reference to Jews and Gentiles being grafted in, the image is that of branches grafted into a single tree.

So then, is the BRANCH of the Lord, the Lord Himself, or the offshoot of the LORD/TREE? Or is it in reference to something else?

Hello Luciano,

My vote is the term "THE BRANCH" belongs to Jesus. There are many trees (even Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom was compared to a great tree) in the Bible. But for sure there is only one "THE BRANCH".

The BRANCH is a deep mystical word associated with the SEED of the Woman promise in the Garden (Gen 3:15). Every ancient culture and ethnic group was aware of this promise and its significance. The constellation "Virgo", first sign in the Mazzaroth or Zodiac, displays a fruitful virgin. The Greeks, the Hebrews, the Arabs, even the Egyptians recognized this star sign to be the same picture. The brightest star in Virgo is Spica, of the 1st magnitude of brightness in the night sky, it's name means THE BRANCH and it signifies the SEED or kernel of wheat the Virgin holds in her left hand. Again, all the ancients attributed the same meaning, the Branch, to this particular star. In Hebrew, the name for the star Spica was "Tsemech". Of all the many Hebrew names for branch used in the Old Testament, this one specifically means Messiah. // Kenneth Fleming "God's Voice in the Stars" // The connection of the name "THE BRANCH" to "THE SEED" to the "THE VIRGIN" to the promise of God in the Garden, points directly at no one else than Jesus Christ.

Note: The four occurrences of Tsemech in the Old Testament are: Jer. 23:5,6 / Zech 3:8 / Zech 6:12 / Isa 4:2

The usage of trees, branches, and vines in the Old and New Testaments is confusing. In different contexts they mean different things. Fortunately we don't draw our theology from symbols, types, and illustrations. We source our theology from the plain teaching of the Word. Illustrations or word pictures are intended to be helps to our understanding. Whenever they don't help, we run to the Word and the Testimony.

As everyone knows, Jesus was born in the hills outside Bethlehem but He was raised in the town of Nazareth in Galilee. He was called Jesus of Nazareth in a contemptuous way. Even Nathaniel said "Nazareth! Can anything good come out of there?" (John 1:46). People from Nazareth were rural and spoke with a regional accent. They were considered crude and unlearned. In fact, Jews refer to Jesus as "the Nazarene" and Christians as "Nazarenes" because they will not use any words linking Jesus or His followers to the names of Messiah or to Messianic prophecies. It is also a term strongly hinting of their distaste for Him and His followers.

How ironic! Narareth comes from the Hebrew word 'Nazeroth' which means "The One Who Is THE BRANCH"! If you dispute this, you will have to explain what the Scriptures meant in Matthew 2:23. For a more extensive argument for this view on the meaning of Nazarene, see the work of Miller at this link: http://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/nazer2.htm

Hope these thoughts are a blessing to you.

[ewq1938]

It is about "Israel," and it points out that gentiles are to become part of Israel. We do not have to be born into the chosen called "Israel," because we can be grafted in.

Amen.

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Romans 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Romans 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

The wild olive is symbolic of gentiles and in this case it is gentiles that believe upon Christ. The non-wild olive tree is symbolic of physical Israel, those who also believe upon Christ. Here some are broken off and some of the wild ones graffed in. This is because God broke off and cast away all those Israelites which did not believe in Christ and He added in all those gentiles who did making them part of the Israelite olive tree and therefore spiritual Israel. The former natural branches that were broken off are now spiritual gentiles and no longer Israelites.



Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Here God warns the former gentiles not to be prideful that they are now part of the olive tree while some of its natural branches were removed. If God didn't spare natural born Israelites, he certainly would have no trouble casting away prideful former-gentiles.


Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

As long as these former-gentiles continue in God's goodness they shall remain.


Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

And if the former Israelites that were broken off for unbelief convert to Christ and believe upon Him, then they can be added back into the olive tree.


Romans 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

And just as God made clear that he would easily remove the new additions if they displeased him, he likewise will easily add back those he broke off if they discontinue their disbelief. Praise God that many "Jews" are converting to Christ and leaving behind their former unbelief! They were broken off the tree because they were Antichrist and denied the Lord but many have converted and have been graffed back! Welcome home brothers and sisters in Christ! As for the others still in disbelief, they are still broken off.


John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

If one abides in Christ they shall live, but if one does not abide in Christ, they are cast away, and burned which is the lake of fire, the second death.



Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

But isn't all Israel supposed to be saved? Of course but you have to remember what Paul wrote in Romans about being broken off the tree for unbelief. That means those broken off are no longer Israelites and Christ said in John that those not abiding in Him will be destroyed. Who lives are only those who are still connected to the olive tree through belief in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the only way to be an Israelite and to be part of His church and body.

[ewq1938]

The problem is that you refer to it as "the law of Moses", as if he was the originator of it.

God uses the phrase, "the law of Moses" so naturally we do as well. It has nothing to do with who created those laws.

Jos_8:31 just the way Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the Israelis in the Book of the Law of Moses: "...an altar of uncut stones that hasn't been worked with iron tools..." and they offered burnt offerings to the LORD on it, along with peace offerings.
Jos_8:32 There Joshua inscribed on stones a copy of the Law of Moses that Moses had presented to the Israelis.
Jos_23:6 "Stand very strong, then, so you can obey and carry out everything written in the Book of the Law of Moses, turning neither to the right nor to the left of it.
1Ki_2:3 by keeping the charge that the LORD your God entrusted to you. Live life his way, keep his statutes, his commands, his ordinances, and his testimonies, just as they're written down in the Law of Moses, so that you may succeed in everything you do and wherever you go,
2Ki_14:6 but he did not execute the children of the murderers, in keeping with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, as the LORD had commanded: "Fathers must not be put to death because of their children's sin; nor are children to die because of their fathers' sin, for each person is to be put to death for his own sin."
2Ki_23:25 There had been no king like him before him, who turned to the LORD with all his heart, with all his soul, and with all his strength, in obeying everything in the Law of Moses. No king arose like Josiah after him.
2Ch_23:18 Jehoiada also placed the offices of the LORD's Temple under the authority of the Levitical priests whom David had assigned over the LORD's Temple, just as is required by the Law of Moses, to offer the LORD's burnt offerings with joy and singing, just as David had ordered.
2Ch_30:16 Then they took their customary places, as the Law of Moses the man of God prescribes, and the priests sprinkled the blood that they were given by the descendants of Levi.
Ezr_3:2 Then Jozadak's son Jeshua and his brothers got up, along with Shealtiel's son Zerubbabel and his brothers. They built an altar of the God of Israel in order to offer burnt offerings, as prescribed by the Law of Moses, the man of God.
Ezr_7:6 left Babylon. He was a skillful scribe of the Law of Moses that the LORD God of Israel had given. And the king granted him everything he had requested because the hand of the LORD his God was upon him.
Neh_8:1 All the people gathered as a united body into the plaza in front of the Water Gate. They asked Ezra the scribe to bring out the Book of the Law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded for Israel.
Dan_9:11 And all Israel flouted your Law, turning aside from it and not obeying your voice. Because we've sinned against him, the curse has been poured upon us, along with the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God.
Dan_9:13 As it's written in the Law of Moses, all this calamity has befallen us, but we still haven't sought the LORD our God by turning from our lawlessness to pay attention to your truth.
Mal_4:4 "Remember the Law of Moses my servant that I gave him at Horeb for all Israel—both the decrees and laws.