Times of the Gentiles

[jeffweeder]

Greetings.
Luke 21:24
1-) Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days;
for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations;
and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


　
1-) Those days , being the temples destruction.
24- Jewish exile and Gentile control over Jerusalem until ?
　
I am interested in reading everyones thoughts on the above.

What will bring an end to the times of the Gentiles over Jerusalem?
Why would that be important regarding the end?

My thoughts,
Exile led to Gentiles trampling Jerusalem, so will Jewish return to Jerusalem put an end to the times of the Gentiles? What else could?
The Gospel is to be preached to all Gentiles, and then the end will come. ( The times of the Gentiles wouldnt be fulfilled without this )

This end would then have something to do with Jewish control of Jerusalem.

p.s.
Luke also mentions that these days of vengeance ( events begining in AD70) were foretold by the Prophets.
　
"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city;
22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

　
What Scriptures refer to this ?--latter verses of Deut 28 perhaps.

Please share your thoughts.
　
　

[Vanderhoven7]

Luke 21:24
1-) Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days;
for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations;
and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Dan Delagrave writes:


"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh . . . and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (Luke 21:20, 24)

The times of the Gentiles referred to the treading down, or desolation, of first century Jerusalem, which Jesus called "the days of vengeance". In other words, it was God's mission for the Gentiles to bring judgment upon Jerusalem. This is consistent with past judgments upon Israel, when God brought Gentiles armies into their land to desolate it.

The whole controversy centers on the duration of the treading down of Jerusalem. The Greek for "trodden" is pat-eh'-o (#3961 in Strong's Concordance), and it means "to trample down underfoot". The parallel to Lk.21:24 is seen in Revelation 11:2, which says:

"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot (pateho) forty and two months."

Could it be any plainer? The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War. This is in perfect harmony with Daniel 12:7, where the defining characteristic of "the time of the end" is said to be "the scattering of the power of the holy people", which we are told would be accomplished during "a time, times, and a half", or forty two months.

Furthermore, when we consider the mountain of evidence for a pre-70 dating of Revelation, in addition to the statements of imminence in the book itself (1:1, 3; 22:6, 7, 10, 12), then the forced conclusion is that the forty two months was fulfilled in the 66-70 A.D. Jewish-Roman War.

[John 8:32]

Type and anti-type.

This is spoken of in three of the Gospels. Mark has something interesting to say...

Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

J.B. Philips has it...

13:14-20 - "But when you see 'the abomination of desolation' standing where it ought not - (let the reader take note of this) - then those who are in Judea must fly to the hills! The man on his house-top must not go down nor go into his house to fetch anything out of it, and the man in the field must not turn back to fetch his coat. Alas for the women who are pregnant at that time, and alas for those with babies at their breasts! Pray God that it may not be winter when that time comes, for there will be such utter misery in those days as had never been from the creation until now - and never will be again. Indeed, if the Lord did not shorten those days, no human beings could survive. But for the sake of the people whom he has chosen he has shortened those days.

The Romans at this time did not have the WMDs that are capable of killing everyone on earth. That is only a recent accomplishment of man. This verse was speaking of a time that occured in 67 AD to 70 AD in type, but was not fulfilled. It will begin to be fulfilled at the close of this age at the beginning of 3-1/2 years of tribulation and the Day of the Lord.

Furthermore, when we consider the mountain of evidence for a pre-70 dating of Revelation, in addition to the statements of imminence in the book itself (1:1, 3; 22:6, 7, 10, 12), then the forced conclusion is that the forty two months was fulfilled in the 66-70 A.D. Jewish-Roman War.

Secondly, Vanderhoven7, I would be interested in seeing this "mountain of evidence" for the dating of Revelation earlier than the mid 90's AD.

[Vanderhoven7]

Hi John 8:22


I don't see evidence for another greater fulfillment.

Let's compare Mark/ Matthew in parallel.

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Now I can't find one commentator who suggests that “all flesh” here is totally out of context of Jerusalem's destruction. For brevity I'll just provide a couple I found. Perhaps you could find one or two Bible scholars that support that this passage has nothing to do with the Roman onslaught.

Jamieson writes: Mar 13:20 -
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh — that is, no human life.
should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days — But for this merciful “shortening,” brought about by a remarkable concurrence of causes, the whole nation would have perished, in which there yet remained a remnant to be afterwards gathered out. This portion of the prophecy closes, in Luke, with the following vivid and important glance at the subsequent fortunes of the chosen people: “And they shall fall by the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” (Luk_21:24).


John Gill writes:
Mar 13:20 - And except that the Lord had shortened those days,.... Had determined that those days of affliction should be but few, and not last long; that the siege should not be longer continued, and the devastations within and without be prolonged:

no flesh should be saved; there would not have been a Jew left; that nation and race of men must have been utterly destroyed from off the face of the earth:

but for elect's sake, whom he hath chosen; in Christ, unto eternal salvation; who were either then upon the spot, called or uncalled, or that were to spring from in succeeding times:

Vander

[Vanderhoven7]

Type and anti-type.

I would be interested in seeing this "mountain of evidence" for the dating of Revelation earlier than the mid 90's AD.

If you are interested, try:

http://www.tektonics.org/esch/revdate.html

[Fenris]

That's such an interesting phrase, "Times of the Gentiles ". Was there also a "Time of the Jews"? What would that even mean?

[John 8:32]

Hi John 8:22


I don't see evidence for another greater fulfillment.

Let's compare Mark/ Matthew in parallel.

Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


Now I can't find one commentator who suggests that “all flesh” here is totally out of context of Jerusalem's destruction. For brevity I'll just provide a couple I found. Perhaps you could find one or two Bible scholars that support that this passage has nothing to do with the Roman onslaught.

Jamieson writes: Mar 13:20 -
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh — that is, no human life.
should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days — But for this merciful “shortening,” brought about by a remarkable concurrence of causes, the whole nation would have perished, in which there yet remained a remnant to be afterwards gathered out. This portion of the prophecy closes, in Luke, with the following vivid and important glance at the subsequent fortunes of the chosen people: “And they shall fall by the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled” (Luk_21:24).


John Gill writes:
Mar 13:20 - And except that the Lord had shortened those days,.... Had determined that those days of affliction should be but few, and not last long; that the siege should not be longer continued, and the devastations within and without be prolonged:

no flesh should be saved; there would not have been a Jew left; that nation and race of men must have been utterly destroyed from off the face of the earth:

but for elect's sake, whom he hath chosen; in Christ, unto eternal salvation; who were either then upon the spot, called or uncalled, or that were to spring from in succeeding times:

Vander

All well and good to look at commentary, but, when it is in direct conflict with the scripture, I view it as “not inspired” to say the least.

The scripture says ALL flesh not all Jewish flesh.

Do you see any references in the commentaries about the abomination occurring in 70 AD just as it did in in 168 BC? The statue of Jupiter Olympus and the sacrificing of swine on the altar?

And I would have thought this particular event would have been the topic of discussion for 1000 years…

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Now add…

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Men saw Him go up, they will see Him come down in the same manner.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

And this event didn’t convert very many either did it, especially of the Jewish persuasion. One would have thought His Second Coming might have had a greater impact.

[John 8:32]

[B]
John Gill writes:
Mar 13:20 - And except that the Lord had shortened those days,.... Had determined that those days of affliction should be but few, and not last long; that the siege should not be longer continued, and the devastations within and without be prolonged:

no flesh should be saved; there would not have been a Jew left; that nation and race of men must have been utterly destroyed from off the face of the earth:

but for elect's sake, whom he hath chosen; in Christ, unto eternal salvation; who were either then upon the spot, called or uncalled, or that were to spring from in succeeding times:

Vander

Not all of Jewry were living in Judea at the time. It surely would have been the most massive manhunt in history to find them all and slay them.

[John146]

That's such an interesting phrase, "Times of the Gentiles ".

As Jesus indicated in Luke 21:24 that phrase refers specifically to the time period in which the Gentiles would trample Jerusalem under foot, so that is the context of the phrase (though there is disagreement over what that means and what time period that entails exactly).

Was there also a "Time of the Jews"? What would that even mean?

There is no "time of the Jews" mentioned in scripture. Who knows what it would mean? It could mean a lot of things, but the context of the meaning of "the times of the Gentiles" is given in Luke 21:24.

[Vanderhoven7]

All well and good to look at commentary, but, when it is in direct conflict with the scripture, I view it as “not inspired” to say the least. The scripture says ALL flesh not all Jewish flesh.
.

13 January 1990; Aeroflot Tupolev 134A; near Pervouralsk, Russia: The aircraft had an onboard fire while in cruise between Tyrmen and Ufa. The crew made a forced landing about two miles (three km) from Pervouralsk. Four of the six crew members and 23 of the 65 passengers were killed. Had the crew not been alert every person would have perished.

Do you see any references in the commentaries about the abomination occurring in 70 AD...
.

Yes, of course. Can you find a reputable scholar that says otherwise?

GILL: Mar 13:14 - But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,.... The Roman army encompassing Jerusalem, which was an abomination to the Jews, and an "impure sign" of their destruction, as the Syriac and Persic versions render it; and a desolating one to their nation, city, and temple:

spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in Dan_9:27. This clause is omitted in the Vulgate Latin, and was not found by Beza, in two of his copies, and is thought to be transcribed from Matthew:

standing where it ought not; round about the city, in the midst of it, and even in the temple: in one of Beza's exemplars it is added, "in the holy place", as in Matthew; and so it is read in the Ethiopic version:

Matthew Henry: Mark 13:14
I. What is here foretold concerning it.
1. That the Roman armies should make a descent upon Judea, and invest Jerusalem, the holy city. These were the abomination of desolation, which the Jews did abominate, and by which they should be made desolate. The country of thine enemy is called the land which thou abhorrest, Isa_7:16. Therefore it was an abomination, because it brought with it nothing but desolation. They had rejected Christ as an abomination, who would have been their salvation; and now God brought upon them an abomination that would be their desolation, thus spoken of by Daniel the prophet

Jamieson writes: Mar 13:14 -
But when ye shall see — “Jerusalem compassed by armies” - by encamped armies; in other words, when ye shall see it besieged, and
the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not — that is, as explained in Matthew (Mat_24:15), “standing in the holy place.”
(let him that readeth understand) — readeth that prophecy. That “the abomination of desolation” here alluded to was intended to point to the Roman ensigns, as the symbols of an idolatrous, and so unclean pagan power, may be gathered by comparing what Luke says in the corresponding verse (Luk_21:20);

[Fenris]

As Jesus indicated in Luke 21:24 that phrase refers specifically to the time period in which the Gentiles would trample Jerusalem under foot, so that is the context of the phrase

Interesting. That would have been the second time that happened.

[HoboTone]

That's such an interesting phrase, "Times of the Gentiles ". Was there also a "Time of the Jews"? What would that even mean?

Yes, the "Time of the Jews" was during Yeshua's ministry on earth;

And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed. But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, Send her away, for she cries out after us. But He answered and said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, Lord, help me! But He answered and said, It is not good to take the childrens bread and throw it to the little dogs.-Matthew 15:22-26
After the Jewish heirarchy rejected him, the Gospel message went out to the Gentiles. This was prophecied;

I will praise You, For You have answered me, And have become my salvation. The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lords doing; It is marvelous in our eyes.-Psalm 118:21-25

Jesus said to them, Have you never read in the Scriptures: The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lords doing, And it is marvelous in our eyes ? Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder. Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.- Matthew 22: 42-45

The time of the Gentiles will be fulfilled when the Gospel comes back full circle to the Jews again; Romans

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."-Romans 11:25-27
I believe this is happening now. Our Synagogue is growing like never before.

[John 8:32]

13 January 1990; Aeroflot Tupolev 134A; near Pervouralsk, Russia: The aircraft had an onboard fire while in cruise between Tyrmen and Ufa. The crew made a forced landing about two miles (three km) from Pervouralsk. Four of the six crew members and 23 of the 65 passengers were killed. Had the crew not been alert every person would have perished.

You make my point very well, every Jew on the face of the earth would not have perished, they were not all on the same aircraft (Masada in this case). Every living Jew was not living in Judea at that time and without that little detail being true, every Jew could not have been killed.

Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;
Act 18:2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

Uh-oh, there is a Jew living in Corinth, actually more than one. The Roman army under Titus did not invade Corinth to my knowledge, unless you have evidence contrary. Looks like Aquila and Priscilla might have escaped the Roman pogram. There goes that theory, sorry Mr. Gill.

[Fenris]

Yes, the "Time of the Jews" was during Yeshua's ministry on earth;

Even more interesting.

[Fenris]

You make my point very well, every Jew on the face of the earth would not have perished

Leviticus 26 specifically says that God will not annihilate all the Jews.