Times of the Gentiles

[John146]

But again. If all the Jews believed him, he would not have been slain. His mission would not have been accomplished.

That's correct. I don't recall saying otherwise. I simply stated the reasons for why He was angry at Jews like the scribes and Pharisees and I referenced John 8 and Matthew 23 as support for that.

How were they more ignorant than the Jews on this topic?

The ones who actually physically killed Him (the Roman soldiers) didn't know He was innocent but the Jews who ordered Him to be killed did so despite knowing that He was innocent. Look at this:

Matt 27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: 2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. 3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

[Fenris]

That's correct. I don't recall saying otherwise.

So he was mad at them for helping him accomplish his mission. Ok.

The ones who actually physically killed Him (the Roman soldiers) didn't know He was innocent but the Jews who ordered Him to be killed did so despite knowing that He was innocent. Look at this:

27:1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Hmm. Well, I won't argue the correctness of this or lack thereof. It does cause difficulties for those who state this as the cause for the temple's destruction, though, because the elders, being old, were all dead long before that happened.

[John146]

How about the mob? Did they know he was innocent?

What mob are you referring to exactly? The mob that yelled for Jesus to be crucified? If so then, yes, they knew He was innocent. Pilate said so, at least.

Luke 23:20 Pilate therefore, willing to release Jesus, spake again to them. 21 But they cried, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. 22 And he said unto them the third time, Why, what evil hath he done? I have found no cause of death in him: I will therefore chastise him, and let him go. 23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. And the voices of them and of the chief priests prevailed.

[Fenris]

What mob are you referring to exactly? The mob that yelled for Jesus to be crucified? If so then, yes, they knew He was innocent. Pilate said so, at least.

Why should they take Pilate's word for it? Was Pilate an expert on Jewish law?

[Vanderhoven7]

I'm sorry, I should have my my point more clear. I'm not saying that the NT teaches anything of the sort either. I'm saying that the conclusion that Vanderhoven7 comes to, that "The days of vengeance..i.e. trampling, the sword, the dispersing would not end until the vengeance against "this people" for denying/killing their Messiah, was fully accomplished." now that could lead to one condoning evil acts against the Jews. And it has.

Not one Jew today.

The whole controversy centers on the duration of the treading down of Jerusalem. The parallel to Lk.21:24 is seen in Revelation 11:2, which says: "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot (pateho) forty and two months."

The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War. This is in perfect harmony with Daniel 12:7, where the defining characteristic of "the time of the end" is said to be "the scattering of the power of the holy people", which we are told would be accomplished during "a time, times, and a half", or forty two months.
...The forty two months was fulfilled in the 66-70 A.D. Jewish-Roman War.

Many of Christ's contemporaries (his generation) were present to witness and experience God's vengeance during this period.

[John146]

So he was mad at them for helping him accomplish his mission. Ok.

That is not what I said. Actually, I said just the opposite. I said "He wasn't angry at them for having Him killed". Yet you are trying to tell me I'm saying "he was mad at them for helping him accomplish his mission"? You need to read my posts more carefully. Did you read John 8 and Matthew 23 as I suggested? If you did then you should understand what I'm saying and you would see what He was angry at them about.

[John146]

Why should they take Pilate's word for it? Was Pilate an expert on Jewish law?

LOL. No, I don't suppose he was. It could be that some of the mob knew he was innocent and some didn't. But it's clear that "the chief priests and elders of the people" knew He was innocent, as I showed earlier from Matt 27:1-4.

[Cyberseeker]

... the revolt of 66 was not the biggest tragedy. Bar Kochba's revolt of 132-135 was put down even more brutally. When that war was over, the majority of Jews in Israel had been killed, exiled, or sold into slavery; Jews became a minority in the land. Jerusalem was plowed under with salt and idols installed on the temple mount. The land was renamed "Syria Palaestina" by Rome.

Jesus predicted, "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)

Fulfillment began in AD70 and AD135. Fulfillment continued throughout the centuries. Another classic example was the conquest of Jerusalem (and further desecration of the mount) by the Muslims in AD637.

Some Christian commentators suffer from a blind spot regarding this prophecy. They relegate its fulfillment to the AD70 event and ignore the others. However ‘the times of the Gentiles’ are a long era, just as ‘the times of Jacob’ was a long era.

[John 8:32]

Jesus predicted, "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)

Fulfillment began in AD70 and AD135. Fulfillment continued throughout the centuries. Another classic example was the conquest of Jerusalem (and further desecration of the mount) by the Muslims in AD637.

Some Christian commentators suffer from a blind spot regarding this prophecy. They relegate its fulfillment to the AD70 event and ignore the others. However ‘the times of the Gentiles’ are a long era, just as ‘the times of Jacob’ was a long era.

The final fulfillment is to be 3-1/2 years...

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

The last 3-1/2 years before Christ returns.

[John146]

Not one Jew today.

The whole controversy centers on the duration of the treading down of Jerusalem. The parallel to Lk.21:24 is seen in Revelation 11:2, which says: "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot (pateho) forty and two months."

The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War. This is in perfect harmony with Daniel 12:7, where the defining characteristic of "the time of the end" is said to be "the scattering of the power of the holy people", which we are told would be accomplished during "a time, times, and a half", or forty two months.
...The forty two months was fulfilled in the 66-70 A.D. Jewish-Roman War.

Many of Christ's contemporaries (his generation) were present to witness and experience God's vengeance during this period.

There's a few things that I believe preterists overlook when trying to claim that Luke 21:24 is parallel to Rev 11:2. I'll quote each of them for easy reference.

Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

First of all, in 70 AD the Roman armies destroyed the temple and they trampled Jerusalem. That is not what Rev 11:1-2 says. That passage says "the court which is without the temple...is given unto the Gentiles". There is no mention in Rev 11:1-2 of anyone destroying the temple. It only mentions the temple of God, the altar, and them that worship therein being measured and says absolutely nothing about the temple of God being destroyed.

Secondly, I believe you need to understand that Rev 11 is not referring to Herod's temple or any physical temple at all. Here is the temple of God that Rev 11 is referring to:

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Now, you can try to claim that the temple of God of verse 1 is a different temple than the temple of God in verse 19 but I'm not buying it. We need to allow scripture to interpret itself whenever possible. And that goes for "the holy city" as well. In the book of Revelation what is "the holy city"?

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

If you try to tell me the holy city of Rev 11:2 is a different holy city than the holy city of Rev 21:2, I'm not buying it. We need to allow scripture to identify its terms for us whenever possible.

Thirdly, the Greek word translated as "Gentiles" in Rev 11:2 is also sometimes translated in that verse as "nations". It's the Greek word "ethnos" and it has a number of definitions. I don't believe "Gentiles" is the best translation of the word there. I believe "heathen" is a better translation. That way it means it is contrasting those who are within the temple of God (God's people, believers) with those who are outside it (heathens, unbelievers).

Rev 11:1-2 is written in figurative language. It's not describing the literal measuring of a physical temple or the literal measuring or counting of people within a physical temple. Why would John be told to do that? What a waste of time that would have been. No, it's figurative language that illustrates who God's people are and who aren't and who are the ones who oppose the holy city new Jerusalem, which is the city of God's people. The holy city, new Jerusalem, represents the church (Heb 12:22, Gal 4:26). It is called "the bride, the Lamb's wife" in Rev 21:9. So, Rev 11:2 is speaking of opposition coming against the church, just as is described in passages like Rev 11:7, Rev 12:17, Rev 13:7, Rev 16:12-16, Rev 19:11-21 and Rev 20:7-9.

Beyond all of this the idea that Rev 11:1-2 is referring to Herod's temple requires that Revelation had to have been written prior to 70 AD. That's not a good requirement to have when it is clearly highly debatable as to exactly when the book was written.

[John146]

Jesus predicted, "They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." (Luke 21:24)

Fulfillment began in AD70 and AD135. Fulfillment continued throughout the centuries. Another classic example was the conquest of Jerusalem (and further desecration of the mount) by the Muslims in AD637.

Some Christian commentators suffer from a blind spot regarding this prophecy. They relegate its fulfillment to the AD70 event and ignore the others. However ‘the times of the Gentiles’ are a long era, just as ‘the times of Jacob’ was a long era.

I agree. I don't see how the times of the Gentiles trampling Jerusalem could have ended in 70 AD. Actually, it's quite clear that it didn't end at that time since we have evidence to show it continued to be trampled on by the Gentiles well after that time (including the events you mentioned that occurred around 135 AD and 637 AD). With that being the case how could the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled in 70 AD? It seems to me that for that to be the case would have required Jerusalem to never be trampled on again after 70 AD. But that has not been the case.

[Fenris]

Not one Jew today.

not one Jew today...what?

The whole controversy centers on the duration of the treading down of Jerusalem.


The parallel to Lk.21:24 is seen in Revelation 11:2, which says: "But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot (pateho) forty and two months."

But again, there are problems with this.

Almost every alive at the time of the crucifixion would have been dead by then. So it's hard to say that it was "their punishment".
It was less a tragedy than the revolt later, which among other things literally saw Jerusalem plowed under with salt.
66-70 is nearly five years- or almost 60 months. Not 42 months. And the war wasn't over until the year 73 anyway.

This is in perfect harmony with Daniel 12:7

Which is about the "end times", where things liek this will happen: Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Has not yet happened.
...The forty two months was fulfilled in the 66-70 A.D. Jewish-Roman War.

Many of Christ's contemporaries (his generation) were present to witness and experience God's vengeance during this period

I'm skeptical. He was crucified in 32 or 33. The temple was destroyed in 70. That's 37 years later. The average lifespan at the time was only about 30 years. Even a child at the crucifixion would probably be dead by the year 70.

[jeffweeder]

As I see it, the phrase, "times of the Gentiles" could just as easily read or be understood as "until the days of vengeance are complete". See verse 22. The days of vengeance..i.e. trampling, the sword, the dispersing would not end until the vengeance against "this people" for rejecting/killing their Messiah, was fully accomplished.

I mentioned in the OP that the Prophets wrote about these days of vengeance... ( events of 70AD ).
Deut 28 may be one of those . If that is the case then vengeance follows the Jews after they have been exiled to all the nations.


It shall come about that as the Lord delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the Lord will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it. 64 Moreover, the Lord will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth; and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known. 65 Among those nations you shall find no rest, and there will be no resting place for the sole of your foot; but there the Lord will give you a trembling heart, failing of eyes, and despair of soul. 66 So your life shall hang in doubt before you; and you will be in dread night and day, and shall have no assurance of your life. 67 In the morning you shall say, ‘Would that it were evening!’ And at evening you shall say, ‘Would that it were morning!’ because of the dread of your heart which you dread, and for the sight of your eyes which you will see.

[ClayInHisHands]

I'm not sure where you're going with this so I can't answer. Are you curious about the date? Or how much was destroyed? Or something else?

I'm not going anywhere with it. Sorry I was unclear.


More or less I wanted to know what was destroyed and precisely what was left after that war?


Also, is there conflicting accounts by historians of what exactly was left?


Was Josephus the only Jewish historian then, if not who else(Jewish) wrote about that war? If you know of some important history accounts of that time other than Josephus etc. can you tell me a couple.




Sorry for the load of questions. Figured I just ask now.

[jeffweeder]

I'm not sure what you are referring to here exactly so can you clarify it for me?

Times of the Jews over Jerusalem was always meant to be. Mistakes seem to have been made and the times of the Gentiles took over ,but this was not to last forever.

Jews were meant to dwell in Jerusalem...forever, but because they missed the time of visitation etc, it was left to them desolate, and Gentiles trample it in their absence....until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled