Times of the Gentiles

[HoboTone]

Even more interesting.

Yeah, I get that from other Jewish people a lot........

[John 8:32]

Leviticus 26 specifically says that God will not annihilate all the Jews.

Lev 26:44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
Lev 26:45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.

Exactly my friend, the Preterist view that all is fulfilled in 70 AD sure leaves a lot of wonderful scriptures unaddressed such as Isa 2, 4, 9, 11, 35 and many more in Isaiah and that is just Isaiah.

[John 8:32]

Just a little more on that happy note...

Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
Isa 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
Isa 49:17 Thy children shall make haste; thy destroyers and they that made thee waste shall go forth of thee.
Isa 49:18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth.
Isa 49:19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away.
Isa 49:20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell.
Isa 49:21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been?
Isa 49:22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.
Isa 49:23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.
Isa 49:24 Shall the prey be taken from the mighty, or the lawful captive delivered?
Isa 49:25 But thus saith the LORD, Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, and the prey of the terrible shall be delivered: for I will contend with him that contendeth with thee, and I will save thy children.
Isa 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

[Vanderhoven7]

Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
13 January 1990; Aeroflot Tupolev 134A; near Pervouralsk, Russia: The aircraft had an onboard fire while in cruise between Tyrmen and Ufa. The crew made a forced landing about two miles (three km) from Pervouralsk. Four of the six crew members and 23 of the 65 passengers were killed. Had the crew not been alert every person would have perished.

You make my point very well, every Jew on the face of the earth would not have perished, they were not all on the same aircraft (Masada in this case). Every living Jew was not living in Judea at that time and without that little detail being true, every Jew could not have been killed.
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Your point is made if every person in the world not on the Russian airplane would have been killed if the crew had not been alert.

[John 8:32]

Quote Originally Posted by Vanderhoven7 View Post
13 January 1990; Aeroflot Tupolev 134A; near Pervouralsk, Russia: The aircraft had an onboard fire while in cruise between Tyrmen and Ufa. The crew made a forced landing about two miles (three km) from Pervouralsk. Four of the six crew members and 23 of the 65 passengers were killed. Had the crew not been alert every person would have perished.



Your point is made if every person in the world not on the Russian airplane would have been killed if the crew had not been alert.

Acutally, that would have been your point. Every Jew in the world would have been killed, even those living in Corinth or the rest of the Diaspora had Christ not stopped Titus' army in Judea in 70 AD.

[Cyberseeker]

... the forced conclusion is that the forty two months was fulfilled in the 66-70 A.D. Jewish-Roman War.

You may need to explain the next "treading down of Jerusalem" by Hadrians forces during the AD135 Bar Kokhba revolt. It was even greater than the AD70 revolt and strangely ignored by Preterists because it doesn't fit their theories.

[Vanderhoven7]

Quote Posted by Vanderhoven7
13 January 1990; Aeroflot Tupolev 134A; near Pervouralsk, Russia: The aircraft had an onboard fire while in cruise between Tyrmen and Ufa. The crew made a forced landing about two miles (three km) from Pervouralsk. Four of the six crew members and 23 of the 65 passengers were killed. Had the crew not been alert every person would have perished.

Quote Posted by John 8:32
You make my point very well, every Jew on the face of the earth would not have perished, they were not all on the same aircraft (Masada in this case). Every living Jew was not living in Judea at that time and without that little detail being true, every Jew could not have been killed.

Quote Posted by Vanderhoven7
Your point is made if every person in the world not on the Russian airplane would have been killed if the crew had not been alert.

Acutally, that would have been your point. Every Jew in the world would have been killed, even those living in Corinth or the rest of the Diaspora had Christ not stopped Titus' army in Judea in 70 AD.

No, that was never a point that I made. My point was and still is that "every person" has a context. In 70 A.D., it was Jerusalem and surrounding areas; in 1990 it was flight 134A

Now it is your turn to disprove my point or at least give scholarly evidence to the contrary.

[aftertheflood]

The problem with the Preterists and partial Preterists approach to dating Revelation is found in what they consider to be "internal" evidences. There approach to these evidences are purely suppositional and the very best you can say about them (the conclusions preterists draw from them) are maybe, maybe not. This is a very week scholarly approach for as a general rule, to use internal evidence to establish anything there must be a reference within the document that allows for a strong conclusive certainty. To base it on something that offers nothing more than it could or couldn't with equal hypothetical strength is pretty poor, especially when contradicted by external evidence.

[jeffweeder]

Could it be any plainer? The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War.

Plainer? yes, the Gentiles over Jerusalem were not fulfilled then.
It seems to me that the trampling of Jerusalem would occur after the events of AD70. You would have the temple in ruins and Jews falling by the sword and carried away to the nations, and as a consequence of that the Gentiles would trample the city until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

As Cyberseeker pointed out, Gentiles continued to trample the city during Bar Kochba, not to mention Mohammadians, crusaders etc.
So its seems obvious that the times of the Gentiles were not fulfilled in the first century...trampling continued over the centuries.

so the times of the Gentiles over Jerusalem come to end how?
Wouldnt the people it originally belonged to have something to do with it?

God bless.

[jeffweeder]

As Jesus indicated in Luke 21:24 that phrase refers specifically to the time period in which the Gentiles would trample Jerusalem under foot, so that is the context of the phrase (though there is disagreement over what that means and what time period that entails exactly).

There is no "time of the Jews" mentioned in scripture. Who knows what it would mean? It could mean a lot of things, but the context of the meaning of "the times of the Gentiles" is given in Luke 21:24.

Thanks for pointing that out John.

Times of the Jews over Jerusalem was always meant to be. Mistakes seem to have been made and the times of the Gentiles took over ,but this was not to last forever.

[Vanderhoven7]

It seems to me that the trampling of Jerusalem would occur after the events of AD70. You would have the temple in ruins and Jews falling by the sword and carried away to the nations, and as a consequence of that the Gentiles would trample the city until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. As Cyberseeker pointed out, Gentiles continued to trample the city during Bar Kochba, not to mention Mohammadians, crusaders etc. So its seems obvious that the times of the Gentiles were not fulfilled in the first century...trampling continued over the centuries.
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Again, the context are the days of vengeance.

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

As I see it, the phrase, "times of the Gentiles" could just as easily read or be understood as "until the days of vengeance are complete". See verse 22. The days of vengeance..i.e. trampling, the sword, the dispersing would not end until the vengeance against "this people" for rejecting/killing their Messiah, was fully accomplished.

[John 8:32]

As I see it, the phrase, "times of the Gentiles" could just as easily read or be understood as "until the days of vengeance are complete". See verse 22. The days of vengeance..i.e. trampling, the sword, the dispersing would not end until the vengeance against "this people" for rejecting/killing their Messiah, was fully accomplished.

Who killed Christ?

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God did not take vengeance on the Jews for killing His Son. He is not nearly that shallow. Christ's sacrifice was planned before Adam ever took a breath. Jesus plainly said...

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

So the idea that the Jews were the responsible party flies in the face of scripture.

[Traveler]

Think of the time of the gentiles as the church age

After the rapture the time of the gentiles ends, the covenant is made with Israel and the sacrifices restart etc.

3 1/2 years later that gets broken and the abomination of desolation gets set up hence the tribulation gives way to the great tribulation and the bowls of wrath etc.

[John 8:32]

Time of Jacob’s trouble…

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Commonly referred to as…

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Obviously, there can only be one time in history that is unique. One time that there is none like it.

Josephus says that 1.1 million Jews died in 70 AD. There were 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust. Read some accounts of the horrible things done, if you have the stomach for it.

To say that the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was worse than the Holocaust is absurd. One would have to have the mindset of Ahmadinejad to believe such a thing.

Mat 24:21 is not referring to Jews alone, but to the world. There is no racial distinction made in this prophecy. But if, and this is hypothetical, if it were referring to the Jews only, it still does not fulfill Mat24:21. The Holocaust was much worse.

Now for a side point that is very important, the time of Jacob’s trouble. Who is Jacob? First of all, to understand the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, one needs to understand who Jacob is and who Judah is.

Gen 35:22 And it came to pass, when Israel dwelt in that land, that Reuben went and lay with Bilhah his father's concubine: and Israel heard it. Now the sons of Jacob were twelve:
Gen 35:23 The sons of Leah; Reuben, Jacob's firstborn, and Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Zebulun:
Gen 35:24 The sons of Rachel; Joseph, and Benjamin:
Gen 35:25 And the sons of Bilhah, Rachel's handmaid; Dan, and Naphtali:
Gen 35:26 And the sons of Zilpah, Leah's handmaid; Gad, and Asher: these are the sons of Jacob, which were born to him in Padanaram.

So Jacob (Israel) had twelve sons. Judah (the father of the Jews) was one of twelve. Just to clarify who Jacob is…

Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

So Jacob’s name was changed to Israel. Israel had twelve sons. Now comes a little change up…

Gen 41:50 And unto Joseph were born two sons before the years of famine came, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him.
Gen 41:51 And Joseph called the name of the firstborn Manasseh: For God, said he, hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father's house.
Gen 41:52 And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath caused me to be fruitful in the land of my affliction.

Joseph had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim. The name of Israel was conferred on them, not Judah (the Jews)…

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
Gen 48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Israel’s name was to be conferred on Ephraim and Manasseh. There actually became thirteen tribes…

Jos 14:4 For the children of Joseph were two tribes, Manasseh and Ephraim: therefore they gave no part unto the Levites in the land, save cities to dwell in, with their suburbs for their cattle and for their substance.

They led the ten tribes of the North in rebellion against the three tribes in the South…

1Ki 12:23 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying,
1Ki 12:24 Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from me. They hearkened therefore to the word of the LORD, and returned to depart, according to the word of the LORD.

In point of fact, the first time the word Jew is used in the Bible it is the plural form, Jews, and is found here…

2Ki 16:6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day.

Now read 2 Kings 16:1-6 and you find the context is that Israel is at war with the Jews. They are two separate nations.

Remember when you see the name Israel, it is not referring to the Jews, that is Judah, it is referring to Ephraim and Manasseh.

To say that the destruction of the Temple and the killing of 1.1 million Jews , just one tribe, is the fulfilling of the time referred to as the worst time in all history for Jacob, all thirteen tribes, just does not hold water. But if one is bent on proving that 70 AD is the fulfilling of all these things then certain facts just have to be overlooked.

[Fenris]

Obviously, there can only be one time in history that is unique. One time that there is none like it.

Josephus says that 1.1 million Jews died in 70 AD. There were 6 million Jews murdered in the Holocaust. Read some accounts of the horrible things done, if you have the stomach for it.

To say that the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD was worse than the Holocaust is absurd.

It's interesting that you brought this up.

If we say that Josephus's figure is correct then about 13% of the worlds Jews were killed as the result of the revolt of 66. The Holocaust was a much higher number number though- some 33% of the world's Jews were killed.

But even in the context of first century Judea, the revolt of 66 was not the biggest tragedy. Bar Kochba's revolt of 132-135 was put down even more brutally. When that war was over, the majority of Jews in Israel had been killed, exiled, or sold into slavery; Jews became a minority in the land. Jerusalem was plowed under with salt and idols installed on the temple mount. The land was renamed "Syria Palaestina" by Rome.