Hi Fenris,
You are right to object to the 70 AD ‘fulfillment’ hypothesis, since you note (1) that those who sleep in the dust were not rasied in the 70 AD era (and, in fact, have still not been raised); that (2) many persons alive during the time of Christ would unlikely be alive in 70 AD; and that (3) since the 69th week ended in (as you say) 32 or 33 AD, 70 AD does not fit the chronology of 7 years past 32 or 33 AD.
I think the key in this matter is to observe AT WHAT POINTS each of the gospels states that an unprecedented time of trouble will arise upon the earth. Note that in Luke no such statement comes before the Dispersal of the Jews into all the nations, and before the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. This is because Luke (as Cyberseeker has already pointed out) describes “The Times of the Gentiles” as an extended period which follows the Dispersal.
In a recent thread I started several days ago (“Why I am not a Preterist”), my second comment in that thread proposes a solution to the kind of objections you properly raise against the idea of a 70 AD fulfillment. That is, based on the Daniel 12:2 resurrection coming between Daniel 12:1’s statement that there will be an unprecedented time of international distress, and 12:7’s statement that the wonders just discussed shall be completed in a time, times, and half a time (understood by many scholars to be 3.5 years), there appears to be a general resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous dead that takes place within the 3.5 year period of the Great Tribulation. I believe this will happen near the beginning of this 3.5 year period, leaving the unrighteous to begin their judgment on the surface of the earth. This [the Great Tribulation] is the last 3.5 years (second half) of Daniel’s 70th week, which begins with the end of the Gentile trampling in Jerusalem. This trampling ceases after the Antichrist begins to rule, after he kills God’s two witnesses, who had had power to afflict men for 42 months (the first half of Daniel's 70th week), in the goal of getting men to repent. Sadly, the Antichrist’s rule seems to imply that the Antichrist will be a Jew, since if he were a Gentile, it would seem that the trampling by Gentiles were not yet over. The Antichrist often imitates the real Christ, who was Himself a Jew. Also, Jesus pointed out that, though He Himself came in the Father's name, yet was rejected, the Jews would one day receive someone who came in his own name (i.e., the Antichrist).
Anyway, my reading of Daniel 12:1-7 in conjunction with passages in Revelation leads me to conclude there will be a general resurrection shortly after the Great Tribulation of 3.5 years begins. Again, this means that every unbeliever who has ever lived in history will be present upon the face of the earth. Thus puzzling verses like Christ’s statement to Caiaphas that he [Caiaphas] would see Christ coming in the clouds would have a literal fulfillment. The best preterists can do about 70 AD is to interpret this statement largely metaphorically, i.e., that Christ was “present” so to speak, in the Roman destruction of 70 AD. This is unsatisfactory. Moreover, Rev. 22 warns that any who add to the words of this book, God shall add the plagues of this book to him. This too would be fulfilled, since all unbelievers in history would be upon the earth, including those all who are guilty of adding “words to this book”.
As for your question about whether there is a “time of the Jews”, I think the closest we have on this side of history is the 70 weeks which Gabriel said were “determined upon thy [Daniel’s] people.” This means the Jews. As I showed in the only other thread I started on this forum “444 or 457; Which is the Correct Date?” history shows that 69 of 70 weeks have passed. And so John in Revelation addresses the 70th week. He divides it into two 42 month periods of 1260 days each. During the first 3.5 period two witnesses from God have power to afflict the earth’s inhabitants in the goal of trying to bring about their repentance. However, at the end of the 3.5 years they are killed by the antichrist. Yet at this point, Christ is declared in heaven to begin his reign in judgment (see Rev. 11). Therefore the troubling cosmic and earthly disturbances that come upon the earth at that time are from Him.
Also, at this mid-point of the 70th week--the threshold of the Great Tribulation--the antichrist (having slain God’s two witnesses) enters the Temple and sets up an image of himself. This is the abomination that makes desolate, spoken of by Daniel the prophet. Some Jews will accept (or at least initially accept) his claim to deity, i.e., as the Messiah, since he has already proved to be a political savior (though not for long!). Worship of him will be aided or caused by a false prophet who is said to come up from the earth (or out of the earth). I think this suggests that the false prophet, who will be given enough power to (1) give life to the image of the beast (that was set up in the temple) and (2) to call down fire from heaven, is a resurrected dead person, since the phrase “out of the earth” suggests the abode of the dead. Note that the false prophet is taken alive and cast into hell, presumably because it is (at least generally) appointed that, as Heb. 9:27 tells us, men physically die but once .
At the end of the 3.5 year Great Tribulation (completing Daniel's 70th week), in which 50% or more of the world’s population has perished, Christ comes back. For unless those days were shortened, no flesh should survive. The placement in all the gospels of the statement about the Great Tribulation shows that “this generation” in the phrase “this generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled” refers only to the generation which witnesses the Great Tribulation, or possible the entire era surrounding Daniel’s 70th week.
And so, the confusion of preterists about 70 AD is because they do not carefully make the distinction in the gospels about two statements in relation to each other: (1) the Great Tribulation, a time of unprecedented international trouble upon the earth, and (2) the Dispersal of the Jews. Matthew and Mark do not discuss the Dispersal, presumably because they at least mainly discuss events AFTER the Dispersal. Luke’s discussion begins with events prior to the Dispersal, then afterward discusses the End. In fact, note that Luke 21:25ff follows Luke’s statement about the time of the Gentiles being fulfilled (completed), and that all the apocalyptic language follows, not precedes, the completion of this Gentile trampling. This chronology agrees with Rev. 11, which states that the Gentiles will trample Jerusalem up to the mid-point of the 70th week, at which point the Antichrist takes over.
One reason there is a lot of eschatological confusion among Christians is because it is often assumed Christ spoke only once about fleeing into the Judean wilderness during his Discourse. But if we believe the narratives harmonize, then we must also believe Christ used much of the same phraseology twice, which, of course, would be natural if on the one hand Luke were warning people to flee Jerusalem because of the armies surrounding it, but if on on the other hand Matthew and Mark were warning their readers to flee because of the abomination of desolation being set up in the Temple. And so, the fleeing into the Judean hills mentioned in Matthew and Mark are about a yet future time when there will be a yet future Temple, whereas Luke’s description of the armies surrounding Jerusalem is PRIOR to the Dispersal and about a Temple already existing.
IMO among the strongest arguments for the above is the historical records, both biblical nad extra-biblical, including archaeological findings, which prove the 69th week ended in April, 33 AD, thus leaving the 70th week to a time of future fulfillment.
BTW, because I believe the church is not the focus of God's program anywhere in the 70 weeks, I also believe in a Rapture of believers prior to the 70th week of Daniel. And so I believe there are yet four resurrections in the future: (1) the righteous at the Rapture prior to the 70th week; (2) a general, simultaneous resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous at the threshold of the Great Tribulation; (3) the righteous who were beheaded along with all others who did not receive the mark of the beast, at the threshold of Christ's 1,000 year reign on earth (see Rev. 20); and (4) the rest of the dead at some point after the thousand years are over (see again Rev. 20).
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Originally Posted by Fenris
At this point it would be fair to ask Fenris to acknowledge Jesus as a prophet - even if he cannot accept him as the Son of God.
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