Have we gotten heaven all wrong?

[Saved7]

I don't take issue with his premise at all post-resurrection. I just wanted to clear up the concept of where we are until that time. Pauls says to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord.

I also agree that there is much Platoism infused in interpreting much of the Apostolic writings. On the other hand, I also think modern Judasim has reformed itself from 1st century Judaism in thought and in concepts of messianic passages in the TaNakh, and it's possible that the concepts of Tikkum olam, Moschiach and "social justice"of modern Judaism has been infused to a point where it may be impossible to know exactly where 1st century Jewish thought really rested. Add to that the hellenism that corrupted Jewish culture from the Alexandrian period may have infused itself into 1st Century Jewish thought. In regards to Tikkum olam, from my short life of observation I tend to think we will lose that battle by human effort.

oh...oh and an afterthought - cherubs...why are they depicted as fat babies? And where in the Bible are women angels?

I agree, I would also like to point out the story of the rich man and lazarus. Certainly there is an afterlife, as well as eternal life. Because the Bible says not only in John 3:16 that we should have eternal life, but that we should NOT PERISH...which suggests to me that there is a life eternal and not some fluffy life here on earth until we die/perish, only to be resurrected
and THEN have eternal life perfected. But that we should not perish, we will have some spiritual realm where we live after the physical death and then we get that new eternal physical life upon the resurrection in a renewed world. Also, let's not forget all the imagery in Revelation of all the souls dressed in white standing before the throne of God BEFORE the resurrection (if you're not a pre-tribber), or on a sea of glass. These things all suggest a spiritual heavenly realm for us until that day of the resurrection.

[nzyr]

You are right that is is self explanatory. Always look at the context, Jesus was on the cross and He told one of the thieves that today he would be with Him in paradise which is not talking about heaven.
Ephesians 4:9 states, before He ascended to heaven He descended first into the lower parts of the earth into a place called Hades. This location had a Old Testament paradise upper compartment in it called Abraham's bosom. He did not ascend into heaven to be seated with the Father until over 40 days later. To be with Jesus that day they descended into the lower portion of the earth.

I don't agree with this. I don't believe paradise is in the ground.

[nzyr]

N.T. Wright asks: Have we gotten heaven all wrong?

No I don't think we have.

[Saved7]

And there are a couple places in Revelation where harps are mentioned.

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a[a] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and [B]with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

I suppose it could be interpretted that it is these 144,000 who are playing harps as well as singing.

And it appears as though those who go through the end times persecution are also seen playing harps. I say they are the ones who go through the persecution because they are standing on a sea of glass that is MINGLED WITH FIRE. Fire representing tribulations/trials/refinement.

Revelation 15:

2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark[a] and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:

“Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints![b]
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.”


So the imagery of us singing and playing music on harps is actually biblical.

[Realist1981]

Ok, I'm confussed here.

How can the New Testament have Jewish roots?

I didn't think the Jews believed in the New Testament.

The Term "Jew" is derived from the tribe Judah. Judah was simply one of the twelve tribes but somehow over time the term Jew has been used to describe anybody with ties to the twelve tribes by heritage or someone who has converted to their religion (Judaism).
Some people are Jews by genology but do not believe in their religion. Every book in both the Old and New Testaments were written by Jews except the Book of Acts and Luke's gospel (Both were written by Luke).

Being a Christian has nothing to do with your physical heritage. Whether you are a Jew by heritage or a Gentile by heritage (i.e. Asian, African, Latin, European, Scottish) it doesn't matter.

[ewq1938]

And there are a couple places in Revelation where harps are mentioned.

Rev 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a[a] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and [B]with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.

I suppose it could be interpretted that it is these 144,000 who are playing harps as well as singing.

Not really since it clearly says the 144k could learn the song being sung before them. The song they heard is said to be NEW, and thus the 144k couldn't have known it yet but are capable of learning it. The harpists are others who provide a musical backdrop to this scenario and event. Also keep in mind that the 144k are on a mountain on Earth while the harpists are before the throne of God in heaven.

So the imagery of us singing and playing music on harps is actually biblical.

Yes it has biblical origins.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

[keck553]

N.T. Wright asks: Have we gotten heaven all wrong?

The following taken from this article

The oft-cliched Christian notion of heaven — a blissful realm of harp-strumming angels — has remained a fixture of the faith for centuries. Even as arguments will go on as to who will or won’t be “saved,” surveys show that a vast majority Americans believe that after death their souls will ascend to some kind of celestial resting place.

But scholars on the right and left increasingly say that comforting belief in an afterlife has no basis in the Bible and would have sounded bizarre to Jesus and his early followers. Like modern curators patiently restoring an ancient fresco, scholars have plumbed the New Testament’s Jewish roots to challenge the pervasive cultural belief in an otherworldly paradise.

First-century Jews who believed Jesus was Messiah also believed he inaugurated the Kingdom of God and were convinced the world would be transformed in their own lifetimes, Wright said. This inauguration, however, was far from complete and required the active participation of God’s people practicing social justice, nonviolence and forgiveness to become fulfilled.

Once the Kingdom is complete, he said, the bodily resurrection will follow with a fully restored creation here on earth. “What we are doing at the moment is building for the Kingdom,” Wright explained.

Indeed, doing God’s Kingdom work has come to be known in Judaism as “tikkun olam,” or “repairing the world.” This Hebrew phrase is a “close cousin” to the ancient beliefs embraced by Jesus and his followers, Wright said.

“It’s the recovery of the Jewish basis of the Gospels that enables us to say this,” Wright said. “We are so fortunate in this generation that we understand more about first-century Judaism than Christian scholarship has for a very long time. And when you do that, you realize just how much was forgotten quite soon in the early church, certainly in the first three or four centuries.”

Christianity gradually lost contact with its Jewish roots as it spread into the gentile world. On the idea of heaven, things really veered off course in the Middle Ages, Wright said.

“Our picture, which we get from Dante and Michelangelo, particularly of a heaven and a hell, and perhaps of a purgatory as well, simply isn’t consonant with what we find in the New Testament,” Wright said. “A lot of these images of hellfire and damnation are actually pagan images which the Middle Ages picks up again and kind of wallows in.”

Wright notes that many clues to an early Christian understanding of the Kingdom of heaven are preserved in the New Testament, most notably the phrase “your will be done on earth as it is in heaven,” from the Lord’s Prayer. Two key elements are forgiveness of debts and loving one’s neighbor.

While heaven is indisputably God’s realm, it’s not some distantly remote galaxy hopelessly removed from human reality. In the ancient Judaic worldview, Wright notes, the two dimensions intersect and overlap so that the divine bleeds over into this world.

Other clues have been obscured by sloppy translations, such as the popular John 3:16, which says God so loved the world he gave his only son so that people could have “eternal life.”

Wright offers a translation that radically recasts the message and shows how the passage would have been heard in the first century. To hear it today is to experience the shock of the new: God gave his son “so that everyone who believes in him should not be lost but should share in the life of God’s new age.”

“And so it’s not a Platonic, timeless eternity, which is what we were all taught,” Wright said. “It is very definitely that there will come a time when God will utterly transform this world — that will be the age to come.”

By the way, i think the concept of "tikkun olam" is folly. This old garment (the world) isn't going the be repaired with a new patch. No, the garment we know as the world is going to pass away. I'm not saying we shouldn't be good stewards of God's common grace and provision, but we need to understand there is no "fixing" this world. It's destiny has already been revealed to us.

Pretty sure Jesus knew this. Whatever 1st century Judiasm's worldview was on the matter is really pointless in light of the truth.

[Nobunaga]

Whatever 1st century Judiasm's worldview was on the matter is really pointless in light of the truth.

To disregard the mindset and culture in which the NT was written is just willful ignorance that benefits nobody. Nobody is saying you have to adopt it as a belief but it is beneficial as Bible study tools.... to say otherwise is simply to miss the point of teaching history.

[keck553]

To disregard the mindset and culture in which the NT was written is just willful ignorance that benefits nobody.

I don't disregard it. I simply understand it as error.

[Nobunaga]

I don't disregard it. I simply understand it as error.

If it's "pointless" why wouldn't you disregard it. There a a lot of things in Judasim that are not true and plenty of things that are, i dont see this as black and white as you may see it. Once again i'm no fan of NT Wright but history is important not pointless.

[keck553]

If it's "pointless" why wouldn't you disregard it. There a a lot of things in Judasim that are not true and plenty of things that are, i dont see this as black and white as you may see it. Once again i'm no fan of NT Wright but history is important not pointless.

I think Tikkun olam is a very thoughtful and respectful concept. I value the concept and I believe it is noble. It's just not in God's plan is all....well ultimately anyway. But perhaps it is in this season....maybe I didn't think it all the way through. But if it creates good stewards and shepards than I dare not say it is fruitless. I sound like I'm contradicting myself.....I guess as long as we know that it will take a divine act to set things right, that our hope is in the LORD and not within ourselves is what I was tripping over myself trying to convey.

[Nobunaga]

I think Tikkun olam is a very thoughtful and respectful concept. I value the concept and I believe it is noble. It's just not in God's plan is all....well ultimately anyway. But perhaps it is in this season....maybe I didn't think it all the way through. But if it creates good stewards and shepards than I dare not say it is fruitless. I sound like I'm contradicting myself.....

Not at all i get what your saying... thats why i think its not a black and white issue seems there are shades of grey here that could overlap. I haven't really explored Tikkun olam either perhaps it would make a good thread some day

And for sure it will take a Divine act of restoration we will not make it happen I cannot agree more.

[keck553]

Not at all i get what your saying... thats why i think its not a black and white issue seems there are shades of grey here that could overlap. I haven't really explored Tikkun olam either perhaps it would make a good thread some day

And for sure it will take a Divine act of restoration we will not make it happen I cannot agree more.

Some times my thoughts are quite difficult to put in words...hence the gray.

[Saved7]

Not really since it clearly says the 144k could learn the song being sung before them. The song they heard is said to be NEW, and thus the 144k couldn't have known it yet but are capable of learning it. The harpists are others who provide a musical backdrop to this scenario and event. Also keep in mind that the 144k are on a mountain on Earth while the harpists are before the throne of God in heaven.





Yes it has biblical origins.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

I was merely pointing out the Biblical origins, as to why there are so many faulty ideas about people singing and playing harps. Which is why I said I SUPPOSE it could be interpretted as such. I didn't say that's how it SHOULD be interpretted. Lots of people interpret the Bible wrong quite often, we do it here all the time in many ways and none of us thinks ourselves wrong. AFter all, you did it with my post, it seems you think I believe it could be interpretted that way because I said "I SUPPOSE it COULD BE." The Bible CLEARLY says a lot of things we misinterpret with regularity, we would do well to pay as much attention understanding the message a person is conveying, as we do the Bible, then maybe we'd have fewer debates on this board over little hairs we like to split. I was merely pointing to those who have read those verses and interpretted us as sitting on clouds playing harps forever.

[ewq1938]

I was merely pointing out the Biblical origins, as to why there are so many faulty ideas about people singing and playing harps. Which is why I said I SUPPOSE it could be interpretted as such. I didn't say that's how it SHOULD be interpretted.

I was agreeing with you as well as pointing out that I don't believe the 144k were singing or playing harps yet in that particular verse.