Renewing of the Mind

[Nobunaga]

Thanks Nobunaga! I will try to not use the phone and wait for when i can use my tablet and desktop! Even though I used the desktop all weekend and people still don't understand me.

No...if thats all you can use at the moment then use it..please. Just bear in mind clarity when typing on a phone as it gets lost sometimes. This was also for the benefit of others who have had a hard time following you...just to let them know the reason why.

This theme is the most important i've come across in my time at Bibleforums...so dont stop posting..... even by phone !

[Nobunaga]

This theme has come at the right time for me personally as i was very depressed about my failures as a Christian and felt like giving up and i mean giving up. I used to pray Lord give me strength for "such and such" and strengthen me to do "this or that"...and this way really made me mad at God because i seemed to be getting nowhere fast (or even slow) my prayers where unanswered.

Now i have realized by the Holy Spirit through my own experience and watching these threads that... its finished ! i'm dead to sin and alive in Christ Jesus...Now my prayer go something like this Lord i can do nothing without you, by your Holy Spirit work through me the patients i need to do "such and such" and by your Spirit manifest in me the confidence I lack to do "this or that". Do you see the difference ?

First way... i was asking to be strengthened in the flesh so i could do (insert good work here)
Now.... I am reckoned dead so i ask Him to do by His Spirit what is impossible for me to do (insert good work here)

This is a renewal of the mind for me.

Now its in my weakness He is shown to be strong.. i can do nothing ! and this is not fake keyboard humility because i really tried to do stuff and failed, i know for a fact... i can do nothing apart from Him who strengthens me. Now the battle for me at this stage is abiding in Him and trusting in Him continually...which is living by faith...I know when i think i can stand on my own i'm going to fall...and this will happen again no doubt but for now it's the good times. This is probably old ground for most of you but this is really exciting for me

BTW as i said i'm just starting out so to speak.... any advice/correction welcomed.

[Watchman]

I'm sorry Watchman. Typo. I meant you don't know my mind and pov.

Thanks for the clarification!

Andy

[Watchman]

Renewal is not forced. If you don't accept the truth why would we be renewed and transformed? It seems obvious to me the focus in the verse is on what the reader/hearer should do based on what has been said. It's like repentance. When we hear we don't have to change our mind, but if we do the Spirit can work. Does that make more sense? When commenting on this verse you never hear anyone mention our part, which seems like the point of the verse to me.

Good point. We definitely have a part to play. Paul uses the phrase, communion (koinonia) of the Holy Spirit, in one place. I view koinonia as 'joint participation.' We have a part to play...but we cannot do it alone. The Spirit will not force us to do anything.

W

[RockSolid]

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

This is a rich and deeply instructive passage. We are being told to place our bodies at the disposal of our Father. And we are being told not to conform to the world—not to assume an outward expression that comes from our surroundings. Rather, we are to be transformed. This is a passive act. Passive does not mean inactivity. We are actively submitting to the Holy Spirit, whose task it is to renew our minds.

What of this mind renewal? Of what does it consist? In short, it means that we are habitually ordering our behavior in the sphere of the Spirit, and by means of the Holy Spirit. As we order our behavior in such a manner, the Spirit makes our minds new. Our old minds were focused on self and on the world—a mindset which Paul terms carnal in Romans 8. A carnal mind is death and is the enemy of God.

A renewed mind is no longer focused on self…it is focused on our Helper, the Spirit of Christ. This renewal is difficult because we are accustomed to operating via the power of our minds when we are reborn. Our new minds receive instruction from our spirits, which are one spirit with the Lord. Our new minds do not begin to rationalize, to reason, to think until moved by the Spirit with instruction. Then the mind comprehends the spiritual instruction, the will chooses to execute the instruction, and the body obeys.

When we place our bodies at God’s disposal, and when we place our minds at the disposal of His Spirit, then, and only then, will we be transformed into the likeness of Christ. What say you?

blessings,

Watchman

I don't think that is what Paul is speaking of here.

Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Paul says "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God,...". He says "therefore", this means he is relating what he is about to say to something he just said. He had just discussed "the mercies of God" in chapter 11.

Rom 11:30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Paul is giving this exhortation to the Gentiles only.
Rom 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry

How they (the Gentiles) were grafted into the olive tree (11:13-24)
How Israel was partially hardened for their (Gentiles) sakes (11:25-29)
How they (Gentiles) recieved mercy from Israel's disobedience (11:30-32)

These are the "mercies of God" that Paul was "therefore" appealing to them (Gentiles) to "present your bodies as a living sacrifice" by.

This carries on into chapter 12, if you read it as full letter instead of a "book with chapters".
He is still adressing the Gentiles in 12:1-2.

Paul is making sure that they don't depend upon the law, which was works based, but instead to depend upon mercy, which is not based on works.

Sacrificing of the animals was part of the Old Covenant "worship" or religious service. Here the Gentiles were to be a living sacrifice, which would be their "spiritual worship".

Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Unfortunatley, "age" here is translated "world" in some versions. The Greek word is "aion", which means "age".
Paul is telling the Gentiles not to be conformed to that age, the old covenant, old law age. He wasn't telling them not to be like the "world". They were Christians, they already knew that. What they were confused about was some of the Jewish Christians were trying to hold them to circumcision and other various old covenant laws. The temple was still standing, the old covenant was still around, they were being confused. Paul didn't want the Gentiles to conform to those things, the gospel is law free.

You, Roman Gentiles, do not conform to this old covenant age and its laws but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that by testing you, Roman Gentiles, may discern what is the will of God.

Conclusion: Combined with chapter 11, Paul was trying to help the Roman Gentiles battle some of the Jewish Christians who were trying to get them to obey aspects of the law as well. Paul made sure that they knew it was by mercy that they (Gentiles) were grafted into the olive tree and not by obeying old covenant laws.

Paul was fighting this same battle elsewhere. Gentiles were being confused.
Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

[Watchman]

Very good points, RS. Paul indeed fought against Gentiles being brought under the Law. There is also, as stated in the OP, the phrase be transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove the good, acceptable, perfect will of God.

The only way anyone can have their mind renewed is via the transformation of/by the Spirit. This is a joint-participation. The Jews had the law. It was written down. Each Jew knew their place and their duties. The body of Christ, OTOH, has many functions and nowhere are these written. We must hear the voice of the Lord to know where He has placed us in the body, to know what good works He prepared in advance in which for us to walk, and to know their timing...ie His good, acceptable, and perfect will. None of this is written as it was written for the Jews and there are no cookie-cutter Christians.

I agree with you contextually; however, that does not negate the points raised in the OP. Thanks for your comments!

blessings,

Watchman

[Watchman]

Hi Noeb,

Here's a question. A renewal is a one-time transaction. Renewing indicates an ongoing remaking of the mind. How can that NOT be a process? If it must be done daily, as scripture indicates, how can it NOT be a process? I'm wondering if semantics are at play here?

W

[Noeb]

This theme has come at the right time for me personally as i was very depressed about my failures as a Christian and felt like giving up and i mean giving up. I used to pray Lord give me strength for "such and such" and strengthen me to do "this or that"...and this way really made me mad at God because i seemed to be getting nowhere fast (or even slow) my prayers where unanswered.

Now i have realized by the Holy Spirit through my own experience and watching these threads that... its finished ! i'm dead to sin and alive in Christ Jesus...Now my prayer go something like this Lord i can do nothing without you, by your Holy Spirit work through me the patients i need to do "such and such" and by your Spirit manifest in me the confidence I lack to do "this or that". Do you see the difference ?

First way... i was asking to be strengthened in the flesh so i could do (insert good work here)
Now.... I am reckoned dead so i ask Him to do by His Spirit what is impossible for me to do (insert good work here)

This is a renewal of the mind for me.

Now its in my weakness He is shown to be strong.. i can do nothing ! and this is not fake keyboard humility because i really tried to do stuff and failed, i know for a fact... i can do nothing apart from Him who strengthens me. Now the battle for me at this stage is abiding in Him and trusting in Him continually...which is living by faith...I know when i think i can stand on my own i'm going to fall...and this will happen again no doubt but for now it's the good times. This is probably old ground for most of you but this is really exciting for me

BTW as i said i'm just starting out so to speak.... any advice/correction welcomed.

I'm full of joy! Even if you fail there's no going back to doing it in the flesh and in the wisdom of the world. There is such peace in knowing through experience, as 1Cor 1-2 says, the power of God to deliever is in Christ and him crucified so that no flesh will glory in his presence. You know what "I am crucified with Christ" means and you know what "frustrate the grace of God" means.

[Nobunaga]

I'm full of joy! Even if you fail there's no going back to doing it in the flesh and in the wisdom of the world. There is such peace in knowing through experience, as 1Cor 1-2 says, the power of God to deliever is in Christ and him crucified so that no flesh will glory in his presence. You know what "I am crucified with Christ" means and you know what "frustrate the grace of God" means.

Thank you brother ! I hope your right and i never try to do anything in the flesh ever again..i've had enough of that...it always fails. From now on i hope to abide in Him and trust Him to do what i cant...this is freedom i think.

[Noeb]

Hi Noeb,

Here's a question. A renewal is a one-time transaction. Renewing indicates an ongoing remaking of the mind. How can that NOT be a process? If it must be done daily, as scripture indicates, how can it NOT be a process? I'm wondering if semantics are at play here?

W

First of all the renewing day by day is not what is happening here. Not that we shouldn't renew our mind to the truth when we hear it, no matter how often, just.....keep it in context.

Secondly, my answer is the same as it's always been (thread:Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?); Everyone agrees we are Sanctified. My point is that we limit that sanctification. It is not limited. As we allow the bar to be raised, so to speak, our Sanctification remains the same. From beginning to end. You won't call Jesus' attention to your level, but gladly accept his he gave you.

Is it a process in our experience? Absolutely. We see through dark glass. We look at things seen and temporal (but are not supposed to). Again, to Abraham, what God said was not possible, but it was true at that moment. Calls things that are not as though they are, means they were not to Abraham because of his limitations, not because it was not true at the moment.

Is that semantics?
To someone that follows the popular teachings of a long process of sanctification, yes.
To someone that has learned those teachings not only fail, but that they are not scriptural, no.
False teaching is serious business, even when unintentional. Frustrating the grace of God is serious business. Doing in the flesh what can only be done in the Spirit is serious business. Saying you need to die to sin, when Jesus says you already are is serious business.

[Noeb]

Thank you brother ! I hope your right and i never try to do anything in the flesh ever again..i've had enough of that...it always fails. From now on i hope to abide in Him and trust Him to do what i cant...this is freedom i think.

Well, don't be hard on yourself if you do, brother. I don't know your life and history. I wasn't raised Christian, my wife was. For a while she still had to catch herself in the act because 30 years of wrong teaching and thinking takes a while to undo. Me, not so much. I learned what doing it in the flesh was very quickly because I was not raised Christian and had childlike faith when I read scripture.....kinda like, Jesus said free indeed, so what's the problem?

[episkopos]

First of all the renewing day by day is not what is happening here. Not that we shouldn't renew our mind to the truth when we hear it, no matter how often, just.....keep it in context.

Secondly, my answer is the same as it's always been (thread:Is sanctification an event, a process, or both?); Everyone agree we are Sanctified. My point is that we limit that sanctification. It is not limited. As we allow the bar to be raised, so to speak, our Sanctification remains the same. From beginning to end. You won't call Jesus' attention to your level, but gladly accept his he gave you.

Is it a process in our experience? Absolutely. We see through dark glass. We look at things seen and temporal (but are not supposed to). Again, to Abraham, what God said was not possible, but it was true at that moment. Things that are not as though they are means they were not to Abraham because of his limitations, not because it was not true at the moment.

Is that semantics?
To someone that follows the popular teachings of a long process of sanctification, yes.
To someone that has learned those teachings not only fail, but that they are not scriptural, no.
False teaching is serious business, even when unintentional. Frustrating the grace of God is serious business. Doing in the flesh what can only be done in the Spirit is serious business. Saying you need to die to sin, when Jesus says you already are is serious business.

This is the "Jesus already did it all FOR you" stance that is so attractive to the human mind. Ironically this position shows no grasping of the mind of Christ. It rather settles for what the mind can already grasp in a human wisdom therefore no process is required or expected. That is because no new ground has been covered. Just an acceptance of a doctrinal position. But the gospel is according to actual power and not just a doctrinal stance.

[Noeb]

This is the "Jesus already did it all FOR you" stance

You bet!

that is so attractive to the human mind.

Wonder why?....and as opposed to what? "The ways of death" you teach?

Ironically this position shows no grasping of the mind of Christ.

It gives it!

It rather settles for what the mind can already grasp in a human wisdom therefore no process is required or expected.

Glory to God!

That is because no new ground has been covered. Just an acceptance of a doctrinal position.

Just like Jesus wants us!

the gospel is according to actual power and not just a doctrinal stance.

The point exactly! So eloquently put! Thank you!

[episkopos]

You bet!

Wonder why?....and as opposed to what? "The ways of death" you teach?

It gives it!

Glory to God!

Just like Jesus wants us!

The point exactly! So eloquently put! Thank you!

This is sad. An intellectual grasp of a doctrinal position is worse than nothing...it is grave error. Here I thought you were at least partially talking of reality...but anything impossible sounding can easily grasped as an idea that doesn't actually have to be proved as real.

Christianity is not a clever philosophy to just believe words without the consequent reality and actions.


Col_2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

[Noeb]

This is sad. An intellectual grasp of a doctrinal position is worse than nothing...it is grave error.

Not supposed to intellectually grasp the doctrine?......where'd you get that?

Here I thought you were at least partially talking of reality...but anything impossible sounding can easily grasped as an idea that doesn't actually have to be proved as real.

Christianity is not a clever philosophy to just believe words without the consequent reality and actions.

Col_2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

That's the point. It is reality and does have to be proven real, and was (and is today). Paul always referenced 'their conversation among them'. You read crucified with Christ - free from sin- in your bible but it's impossible sounding to you because you look at the things that are seen and temporal, and not the spiritual.

So glad you posted that verse, BTW. Do you know what rudiments are? Principles. Principle based sanctification should come to mind. That's what you talk about, not me. That is about the teachings you follow, not me.