The Six Commandments?

[Vhayes]

The only other one sticking is the math teacher in Ohio who was fired for refusing to remove a bible from either his desk drawer or the top of his desk, which he read on free time.

There's a whole lot more to that story than a bible on his desk:

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — A judge has upheld the firing of a central Ohio public school science teacher who was accused of preaching religious beliefs in class and of keeping a Bible on his desk.

Knox County Common Pleas Judge Otho Eyster said in his two-page ruling Wednesday that he found clear and convincing evidence that the Mount Vernon school board was right in dismissing John Freshwater early this year.

A request by the former Mount Vernon Middle School teacher for Eyster to conduct additional hearings "is not well taken," the judge wrote.

The school board in the community about 40 miles northeast of Columbus first tried to dismiss Freshwater in 2008 after investigators reported that he preached Christian beliefs in class when discussing topics such as evolution and homosexuality, and was insubordinate in failing to remove a Bible from his classroom.

He wasn't dismissed because he had a bible on his desk, he was dismissed for teaching/preaching the bible in a public school. His contract should have been pretty explicit - he either should not have signed the contract or he should have abided by it.

[Vhayes]

Hence this thread. These are some of the consequences. Except today some Christians support the advocates of those consequences. Wolves among the sheep I suppose.

Yes, yes. There are always the wolves.

Or the tares I would guess as well.

Discussion goes a long way. Accusations are - well - just that.

[awestruckchild]

I have to bow out of this conversation, guys.
I'm sorry, but none of this matters if we are not walking in love towards each other and obedience towards Christ.
I have finally learned and grasped this this for good, and I won't ever waver on it again.
Please love one another. It is the only thing that will bring us the power we need to survive in these evil days and it is the only way we will ever be of any good anywhere and at any time.
I beg you to walk gently in love toward each other so as not to hinder the Spirit in these evil days.

[awestruckchild]

It appears I need to return to say something.
I will tell the truth and you can get mad and have me reprimanded, but I will speak the truth anyway.
I love you V, but you are working against the Holy Spirit and kicking against the goads. You are insisting that the right path to take is to hide the Light in order to hide the darkness.
This is the wrong path.
It is never the right path to allow the darkness to hide the Light.
It is not the narrow way and it is not according to our calling.
You are helping the darkness.
This is why you have never been hated or experienced anyone trying to muzzle you or demand that you stop speaking in His name or reading His words.

[Vhayes]

I'm not angry. Not at all. And I do not report people who disagree with me. I don't even usually report people who snidely insult me (not saying you have done this).

I need to know - how do you feel I am "hiding my light"?

I really, truly do not understand what you are saying. I am asking for help in seeing what you see.

Again - I am not at all angry.

[Athanasius]

I'm not angry. Not at all. And I do not report people who disagree with me. I don't even usually report people who snidely insult me (not saying you have done this).

I need to know - how do you feel I am "hiding my light"?

I really, truly do not understand what you are saying. I am asking for help in seeing what you see.

Again - I am not at all angry.

You aren't 'hiding [your] light' or 'helping the darkness', so you aren't going to get a satisfactory explanation.

[awestruckchild]

It isn't your light you are hiding, V, it is His Light.
The path you are insisting is right is to hide His Light in order to keep silent the darkness.
You are insisting that the Gospel, the Light, be hidden, because in this way, you believe the darkness will remain hidden.
This is not the way it works, V.
The darkness flees when exposed to the Light.
The darkness cannot overcome the Light.
Darkness is pleased when we give it the power to keep the Light hidden. Darkness does not have this power unless we grant it.
You think you are protecting your children from the darkness, but this way you fight for is not right.
This is not shouting it from the rooftops what we have seen and heard.
You can either walk away sad because of this possession of yours that you call freedom or you can give up this possession and all others to follow.
I know these words seem foolish to you, but please ask God to help you with them, as to whether they are true.
Please consider why we would ever get it in our heads that to shout of the Light from the rooftops would mean that we have to give equal airtime to the darkness or subject our children to it. It is not our job to figure out how to keep the darkness at bay. It is our job to only proclaim the Light and believe Him when He says the darkness will flee.
Do not worry about others who only want to look pious. Leave them to Him. We only need to do what He tells us to do.
If you decide to walk away sad because of your possessions, that is your choice to make, but please stop trying to quench the Spirit or cause others to agree that the right path to take is to hide the Light to hide the darkness.

[TomH]

We have raised two children and have dealt with school systems for the better part of fourteen years. Throw in the occasional foster child and we've added a couple of unique twists to the mix.

Rather than go into gory details, suffice it to say, we have fought the system.

To suggest that there aren't that many schools and these problems should not be that hard to address, is speaking out of ignorance.

WARNING: this is going to offend some members. Awestruckchild, this is not directed at you personally, because I have seen this from many, many people. You are not unique to this scenario, and although the concern you have is heartfelt and sincere, I must ask one thing.

What are you doing about it?

Here are the reasons for not getting involved that I have heard many times. If any of you have taken up any of these reasons for not getting involved in the problem, then I'd like for you to reflect on whether it's a legitimate reason, or simply an excuse.

1) it didn't happen in my state.

2) I have no children of my own, so I have no right with my local school system.

3) I have a full time job.

4) there's so many problems, I lose track of all of them, it's overwhelming.

Here's some advice.

Get involved with your local school system. Don't have any children? So what?
Probably 98% of the teaching staff and administration don't have a child enrolled in the school they're employed in. And your tax dollars pay for that school. So you are more invested in your local school system, with your federal, state, and local tax dollars than most anything else. The old retired couple down the street, who have never had children, have an equal investment in the local school system as the family next door with eight school age children.

Become a member of the school board. Make your local school a shining example of how a school should be run.

If the problems are so overwhelming for you and you can't remember the basic when, where, and why, and your typing out your concerns on a Christian message board, why would it be so difficult to also have a file folder full of links of all those articles? Little personal notes?

You've got a full tme job and don't have time?

Can't tell you how many days I took off work so I could make a meeting, or spend the day making phone calls. It's part and parcel to that suffering that you here so much about.

Suffering isn't limited to abuse from the evils of the world.

Suffering usually comes from paying the price of standing up for Chritian rights by giving up such things as a days wage.

The excuse, and I've heard it before, there's no one to turn to. What's your church telling you about your concerns?

Get involved. That's the one thing I have missed in this thread.

What have you (the generic you) done so far?

What has worked for you? What hasn't?

Our school system put our son through testing for ADD and recommended that we put him in the "special" class.

We paid for the same test with an independent firm. He was NOT ADD.

We paid for private counciling. To the point of having the psychologist attend one of the parent teacher conferences to explain to the staff that they were wrong in their evaluation.

We've been there, done that. Suffered the consequences. And we have gotten results.

Our children are raised and gone now. But if we are called to again stand up and do what we can, we are willing.

Armchair quarterbacks have NEVER won a game.

[Vhayes]

It isn't your light you are hiding, V, it is His Light.
The path you are insisting is right is to hide His Light in order to keep silent the darkness.
You are insisting that the Gospel, the Light, be hidden, because in this way, you believe the darkness will remain hidden.
This is not the way it works, V.
The darkness flees when exposed to the Light.
The darkness cannot overcome the Light.
Darkness is pleased when we give it the power to keep the Light hidden. Darkness does not have this power unless we grant it.
You think you are protecting your children from the darkness, but this way you fight for is not right.
This is not shouting it from the rooftops what we have seen and heard.
You can either walk away sad because of this possession of yours that you call freedom or you can give up this possession and all others to follow.
I know these words seem foolish to you, but please ask God to help you with them, as to whether they are true.
Please consider why we would ever get it in our heads that to shout of the Light from the rooftops would mean that we have to give equal airtime to the darkness or subject our children to it. It is not our job to figure out how to keep the darkness at bay. It is our job to only proclaim the Light and believe Him when He says the darkness will flee.
Do not worry about others who only want to look pious. Leave them to Him. We only need to do what He tells us to do.
If you decide to walk away sad because of your possessions, that is your choice to make, but please stop trying to quench the Spirit or cause others to agree that the right path to take is to hide the Light to hide the darkness.

I know you are sincere. i DO know that and I appreciate that sincerity.

We are blessed to live in a country that allows us to worship as we see fit. The "down" side of that is, we must allow all others to worship as THEY see fit. That's what "freedom" is all about.

If we allow Christians to teach our religion in public schools, then we must also allow Hindus to teach THEIR religion in public schools. I don't WANT a Hindu teaching my grandchild that Vishnu is "Truth" - because I do not believe it to BE truth. I do not want a Jehovah's Witness teaching my child as biblical Truth that only 144,000 people will go to heaven - and they are all Jehovah's Witnesses.

HOW is that "hiding the light"?

Where have you got the idea that I would be sad to walk away from my "possessions"? That one is really throwing me for a loop.

The public school system is NOT a place to teach religion - any religion. Religion and core beliefs should be taught in the home and at church. Children must be educated - there are laws that state that. If a child MUST go to school, I want them protected from being forced into learning the tenets of Scientology or Islam or Buddhism. If that means that Christianity cannot be taught, then I'm ok with that.

How am I quenching the Spirit by not wanting schools teaching religion?

And again - I am not angry. Confused but not at all angry.

[keck553]

Yes, yes. There are always the wolves.

Or the tares I would guess as well.

Discussion goes a long way. Accusations are - well - just that.

Not an accusation. The Bible says there are, therefore there are.

[Vhayes]

Not an accusation. The Bible says there are, therefore there are.

No argument there.

The bible also says let your yes be yes and your no be no - in other words, speak plainly and not with innuendoes. Hearts and attitudes - hearts and attitudes.

[keck553]

No argument there.

The bible also says let your yes be yes and your no be no - in other words, speak plainly and not with innuendoes. Hearts and attitudes - hearts and attitudes.

Paul teaches us to leave the weeds where the grow, so let's keep in context with verses.

Look, I know the government is becoming more hostile to Christians at virtually all levels. I know expressing our faith, and perhaps practicing our faith is going to become much more difficult. I understand we are hated because of Christ, I understand we will be mocked, ridiculed and persecuted. I know we've lost our national identitiy. I acknowledge these things. I know Christians will 'lose' this battle. The victory is not to be ours, but our victory will be in Christ, and He will put His enemies under His feet at His appointed time.

I'm sure He understood these things as He was being nailed to the cross. But I am also quite sure that He grieved when God's people cheered on the Romans. I understand that grief. I just don't express it as well as He did.

[Vhayes]

Paul teaches us to leave the weeds where the grow, so let's keep in context with verses.

Look, I know the government is becoming more hostile to Christians at virtually all levels. I know expressing our faith, and perhaps practicing our faith is going to become much more difficult. I understand we are hated because of Christ, I understand we will be mocked, ridiculed and persecuted. I know we've lost our national identitiy. I acknowledge these things. I know Christians will 'lose' this battle. The victory is not to be ours, but our victory will be in Christ, and He will put His enemies under His feet at His appointed time.

I'm sure He understood these things as He was being nailed to the cross. But I am also quite sure that He grieved when God's people cheered on the Romans. I understand that grief. I just don't express it as well as He did.

The government is becoming less and less Christian. So is the populace. What we SHOULD be concerned about is the fact that the populace is becoming less and less Christian. Our JOB as Christians is to reach out to them with the Good News of the gospel, not fight laws. If only we would concentrate on doing that and worry less about what everyone else is doing, we might be surprised when we discover that we have more Christians than anything else. REAL Christians who build each other up. Real Christians who feed the poor (might eliminate public assistance) - real Christians who pay the light bill for the guy down the street who lost his job. Real Christians who show BY EXAMPLE the Love of Christ to the homosexual or the murderer or the greedy one.

Jesus didn't preach to Caesar and bang on him to change the rules - He reached out to individuals. He didn't try to conform governments to fit His "agenda".

[awestruckchild]

I know you are sincere. i DO know that and I appreciate that sincerity.

We are blessed to live in a country that allows us to worship as we see fit. The "down" side of that is, we must allow all others to worship as THEY see fit. That's what "freedom" is all about.

If we allow Christians to teach our religion in public schools, then we must also allow Hindus to teach THEIR religion in public schools. I don't WANT a Hindu teaching my grandchild that Vishnu is "Truth" - because I do not believe it to BE truth. I do not want a Jehovah's Witness teaching my child as biblical Truth that only 144,000 people will go to heaven - and they are all Jehovah's Witnesses.

HOW is that "hiding the light"?

Where have you got the idea that I would be sad to walk away from my "possessions"? That one is really throwing me for a loop.

The public school system is NOT a place to teach religion - any religion. Religion and core beliefs should be taught in the home and at church. Children must be educated - there are laws that state that. If a child MUST go to school, I want them protected from being forced into learning the tenets of Scientology or Islam or Buddhism. If that means that Christianity cannot be taught, then I'm ok with that.

How am I quenching the Spirit by not wanting schools teaching religion?

And again - I am not angry. Confused but not at all angry.

I am glad you are not angry with me V.
This is not the Gospel, it is another gospel because too many parts are left out.
You do well to try as best you can to bring offense to no man.
But you do not do good to say that in order to offend no man, that there are places where the Gospel should not be spoken or to say that if a man refuses to obey the laws of men in order to obey who he follows, that he should be fired or worse.

The persecutions that are happening to our brothers and sisters in many places ARE relevant to our discussion here. To think that these persecutions will not come next to us or our children is to just ignore prophecy and to ignore how there is nothing new under the sun and how God makes everything to repeat. It is to ignore and not be able to discern the signs of the times and to shout peace! peace! when there is no peace.

Keck is right. He is not speaking his own words when he says that we will be overcome and persecuted. But to allow the Good News to be muzzled because we know this is coming, and to fear the idols of other men who cannot walk and talk and have no breath, in order to try to save a freedom we think we have that is really bondage, is not the narrow path. It is an attempt to save our lives and the lives of our children that will cause us to lose our Life.

Men are remaining silent because the days are evil.
We were told this would happen.
But it does not mean we will not be held accountable for failing to speak.

It is the wrong way to say men must keep silent when they are told to speak because the laws of men must be followed above the command of our Savior.

It may feel or seem like love to you to keep the Light from other mens children, but esteeming your own children over others that Jesus loves and died for in order to protect your own, is not good. It is not love. It is fear. It is saying, at least there will be peace during my lifetime, just as the man said when told what would come to his children after his death.

I do not think this will be fixed before the end comes.
A seal has been broken and the dreams we are being given are telling us this.
I want to go back to the day that I read Jeffweeders dream of the angels. It is hopeful that we will see gifts poured out to strengthen us in the horrors we will see and face.

The dreams will keep increasing and desolations are coming, but some men will do mighty exploits through their God and ours and will strengthen our weak knees and will snatch many from the fire. We should hasten His coming instead of trying to hold on to a freedom that is a strong delusion. There can be no Freedom where the Good News is not preached. It is impossible.
There is a way that seems right to man but it's path leads to death.

The time is coming soon when two men will not be allowed to be touched and will speak the Word and when any man tries to harm them in the name of his idol called freedom, fire will come from their mouths and devour these men.
Even so Lord, come soon.

[TomH]

James 2:17-19
King James Version (KJV)
17*Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18*Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19*Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.