The Six Commandments?

[awestruckchild]

I believe my free will would be at risk living anywhere else but here. And it's simply because ALL men have gained the freedom of utilizing that free will.I have seen many religions. Learned a lot about some, and just enough about others. I want my brothers and sister to love God. Not because they are ignorant of worldly things and haven't a choice.It is when our free will choices are blocked, we become slaves to the powers that be. Governments are to protect the people. ALL people. Schools are to educate our children ALL our children.If our government declares one religion as the states religion, then our government is no longer "by the people, for the people." it turns into "by some of the people, for some of the people."In 2002, around 52% of the population declared themselves to be Protestants in the US. 25% as Catholic and "others" holding to around 2% each.Now, personally, that 52% seems a stretch. Especially with the knowledge I've gained on some of the beliefs of a fee of the "declared Protestant" sects I've seen.So tell me again. Is this a Christian nation? Or is this a nation of peoples that include a vast number of people "declaring" Christianity?Declaring this a Christian nation, will you accept the cross and ten commandments displayed and nothing else? Will the Bible be read in schools and no other religious materials?Will only Christians be able to hold public office?If there is a non Christian office holder, will his vote count as 3/5 of a vote?One of the most ridiculous thoughts I've had while typing this is my God looking down upon our government and declaring, "Yup, those are My kind of people!"Our government is filled with idolaters, adulterers, liars, thieves, warmongers, fornicators, and a few homosexuals. Do you really think God is going to claim the US as His nation?I for one, do not want MY Christianity in any way shape, or form, identified with this government.Keep the separation please. I do not want the title of Christian sullied by association.

I can only scratch my head and ask you to do the same thing I have asked VHayes to do. Instead of quickly scanning a post, read it with some thought and THEN reply. The two of you seem to have some political agenda that causes you to not hear what I have said. I am not advocating a state sponsored religion. I am advocating the freedom to express ones religion however one wants to, whether through their clothing, or their choice of lunchbreak reading material. I am not advocating sending the girl in the veil home - I am advocating allowing the boy in the tshirt that says Jesus saves to be permitted to stay. I am not advocating sending the child reading the Koran home - I am advocating allowing the student reading the bible to stay. What is the point of having a conversation if you don't respond AND listen...?

[Vhayes]

The Jesus t-shirt conflict was in Nova Scotia. How does that effect the United States and it's laws?

Still looking for the other news stories you posted.

[awestruckchild]

The Jesus t-shirt conflict was in Nova Scotia. How does that effect the United States and it's laws?

Still looking for the other news stories you posted.

Wrong story, same persecution.

[TomH]

You say you have no children of your own.

You've been spouting your advice, and I know it is well intentioned, but let me give you a little advice from personal experience.

I DO NOT want my child influenced in a controlled environment (school is mandatory you know) in any form of religion that I have no control over. There is not ONE teacher, administrator, or student in a public school who has the credentials to either teach or oversee anything of a religious nature.

Most of the public schools fall far short in academics. Do you really think it wise to allow them to oversee a religious environment?

What you're advocating is a wishful, pie in the sky, perfect world scenario that will never happen.

Allowing religious freedom in the schools is not going to elevate the academics of the school, but it will cause a total decline of religious freedom.

[Vhayes]

I still can't find the news stories. I did find one in Ohio where a young man wore a shirt that said, "Jesus in not a homophobe". He won his court case and wore the shirt to school.

The only other one I can find happened in Nova Scotia.

I also cannot find a story about a student being sent home for reading a bible. I found a story about a teen in San Diego who was told not to bring his bible to school because he was being disruptive. It's an alternative school with 34 students. Even the atheist infested, dripping liberal group known as the ACLU stated the teen had a right to free speech as long as it was not disruptive to the curriculum.

So, I would be happy to listen if I had an idea of what I was supposed to listen TO.

[awestruckchild]

You say you have no children of your own.

You've been spouting your advice, and I know it is well intentioned, but let me give you a little advice from personal experience.

I DO NOT want my child influenced in a controlled environment (school is mandatory you know) in any form of religion that I have no control over. There is not ONE teacher, administrator, or student in a public school who has the credentials to either teach or oversee anything of a religious nature.

Most of the public schools fall far short in academics. Do you really think it wise to allow them to oversee a religious environment?

What you're advocating is a wishful, pie in the sky, perfect world scenario that will never happen.

Allowing religious freedom in the schools is not going to elevate the academics of the school, but it will cause a total decline of religious freedom.

I will try one more time Tom.
What does any of this that you have said have to do with a childs choice of reading material on lunch break?

[awestruckchild]

I still can't find the news stories. I did find one in Ohio where a young man wore a shirt that said, "Jesus in not a homophobe". He won his court case and wore the shirt to school.

The only other one I can find happened in Nova Scotia.

I also cannot find a story about a student being sent home for reading a bible. I found a story about a teen in San Diego who was told not to bring his bible to school because he was being disruptive. It's an alternative school with 34 students. Even the atheist infested, dripping liberal group known as the ACLU stated the teen had a right to free speech as long as it was not disruptive to the curriculum.

So, I would be happy to listen if I had an idea of what I was supposed to listen TO.

Perhaps you have searched for the stories with the same impatience and lack of thoughtful attention with which you hastily read others posts and so this is why you could not find them?

[Athanasius]

But that is the point. Every religion is NOT allowed free expression in the schools. The news stories I referenced shouldn't be hard to find if by some odd chance you never heard them as they were breaking. They did not involve teachers preaching. They involved a tshirt, a veil, and the books that two students chose to read on lunch break. Of the tshirt and veil, one student was sent home. Of the bible and the Koran, one student was sent home. I have read many, many of your posts. You are quite intelligent and seem to have an uncanny talent for sniffing out hypocrisy. Is your sniffer not working?

I'm Canadian: the 'sniffer' works under a different paradigm when it comes to religion and the state.

I realize there's persecution, Jesus said there would be persecution. I simply don't want the state endorsing one religion, regardless of my beliefs, because (1) the state has been historically terrible at obeying the teachings of the religion its endorsing; (2) the religion being endorsed is likely to change, and things would become even worse. State endorsed Christianity wouldn't be the conservative Christianity of the American South, it would be the liberal Christianity birthed in the early 19th century European (mostly German) universities. Besides, I don't believe Christianity is meant to be endorsed at the State level in a society filled with non-Christians.

[Bandit]

You've fainted in fear of Hindu teacher's teaching your children about Vishna? I believe the point is that just as you don't want a false religion being taught to your children, neither does the Hindu (in his estimation). The state, for better or worse, is not run by philosophers of religion, or even arbiters of what is actually true. It's not their job to discern which religions are and aren't true, and the reality is that the compromise is that we must live in a society where no religion is sponsored, but every religion (with certain restrictions) is allowed expression. It has nothing to do with us denying Christ.

Hello Athanasius,

Here is the only problem I have with what you have said (and you may also recognize this issue): what is the moral foundation of a society? With the symbolic placing of the Ten Commandments in many public sites (courthouses included), the United States as a nation identified the Christian God as the moral absolute. So although this is not a nation forcing any particular version of Christian belief upon any person, there is (or was) the underlying appeal to the One True God's high moral standard. So if that high moral standard is denied, then what "standard" shall take its place?

"But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." [Matt. 24:36]

[Athanasius]

Hello Athanasius,

Here is the only problem I have with what you have said (and you may also recognize this issue): what is the moral foundation of a society? With the symbolic placing of the Ten Commandments in many public sites (courthouses included), the United States as a nation identified the Christian God as the moral absolute. So although this is not a nation forcing any particular version of Christian belief upon any person, there is (or was) the underlying appeal to the One True God's high moral standard. So if that high moral standard is denied, then what "standard" shall take its place?

"But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." [Matt. 24:36]

As Christopher Hitchen's used to say, people didn't find out only after Moses that murder was wrong. People will find a different standard; they already have different standards. Displaying the 10 Commandments in a court house isn't going to ensure that the majority of the nation doesn't operate under quasi-Christian morals (which they do), but those same people coming to know Jesus as Lord will.

[awestruckchild]

[QUOTE=Athanasius;2851808]I'm Canadian: the 'sniffer' works under a different paradigm when it comes to religion and the state.

I realize there's persecution, Jesus said there would be persecution. I simply don't want the state endorsing one religion, regardless of my beliefs, because (1) the state has been historically terrible at obeying the teachings of the religion its endorsing; (2) the religion being endorsed is likely to change, and things would become even worse. State endorsed Christianity wouldn't be the conservative Christianity of the American South, it would be the liberal Christianity birthed in the early 19th century European (mostly German) universities. Besides, I don't believe Christianity is meant to be endorsed at the State level in a society filled with non-Christians.[/QUOTE

I am in total agreement that state sponsored religion is always an awful thing.
None of my remarks have advocated it, though people with a specific grudge they want to be made known seem to think I have said so.
I cannot more succinctly state what I have said - the problem is not a lack of clarity on my part but rather a lack of listening on theirs.
I am advocating freedom of expression of ones religion.
This cuts two ways. First, that no man may tell you who you must worship, and secondly, that no man may tell you there are any places on earth (schools included) where you are not free to express your religion and worship, or where you are not free to read your holy book or bow your head. I know that YOU can see what I am saying.

I have tried to point out how "freedom of religion" has taken a nasty turn into the exact opposite.
It is sort of akin to how unions began with a noble cause and have devolved into ugly bullies.

The king in the bible, the crusades - both an attempt to quell freedom of religion.
Sending a child home for his tshirt, or choice of freetime reading material - both an attempt to quell freedom of religion.
Freedom of religion must involve not being told WHO you must worship and ALSO not being told WHERE you can or can't worship. As I have said, history shows us quite plainly that it does not end with a quelling of freedom of religion in public places. There is a reason for this. It is because WE STILL EXIST. So then it devolves into no man able to worship or have a house church in his own home. Why is private worship always attacked later? Because WE EXIST.

I will stop before my face turns blue going round and round with people who just don't want to listen but only want to repeat the phrases they come in here with regardless of where the conversation turns. I will NOT become snippy or ugly. I see the same people in here becoming ugly and loveless as I saw in similar threads quite a few years ago. I wont be dragged into it because I walk by the Spirit and because I have learned satans tactics for making us ineffective in our witness.

Maybe Tom can break out the Barry Manilow again and send everyone packing. Nothing is more frightful than the threat of getting BM stuck in your head, and Tom is sneaky about it and breaks the rules by not telling you the content of the video he posts beforehand. That's really all I can say about it because of the lawsuit...

[TomH]

I will stop before my face turns blue going round and round with people who just don't want to listen but only want to repeat the phrases they come in here with regardless of where the conversation turns. I will NOT become snippy or ugly. I see the same people in here becoming ugly and loveless as I saw in similar threads quite a few years ago. I wont be dragged into it because I walk by the Spirit and because I have learned satans tactics for making us ineffective in our witness.

Maybe Tom can break out the Barry Manilow again and send everyone packing. Nothing is more frightful than the threat of getting BM stuck in your head, and Tom is sneaky about it and breaks the rules by not telling you the content of the video he posts beforehand. That's really all I can say about it because of the lawsuit...




Thank you for not being ugly and snippy!

[awestruckchild]

Well, see there, hugs and kisses melt my heart every time!
Do you realize Tom, that one day none of these conversations will matter or even enter our minds for the Glory we are bathed in every second??

[teddyv]

Well, see there, hugs and kisses melt my heart every time!
Do you realize Tom, that one day none of these conversations will matter or even enter our minds for the Glory we are bathed in every second??

I certainly hope there will some things to still contend over. Done well and properly its an enjoyable pastime.

[awestruckchild]

I certainly hope there will some things to still contend over. Done well and properly its an enjoyable pastime.

I fear you will not get your wish.
How could there possibly be anything to contend over in the presence of all Truth..?