Grand Master
So you are saying that we were born carnal? There you go, the carnal nature is the sin nature, as Paul said, "we know that the law is Spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.Originally Posted by Noeb
I already said I was referring to the theology of Pelagianism, not Pelagian himself. Just like quoting Calvinism is not necessarily quoting Calvin himself. Do you have access to the actual writings of Pelagius. If so, please name the source.
1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Posting Freak
Look up carnal. It is not sinful. That's another popular misconception. Paul said the church had provided for his carnal needs. Were they sinful? Of course not.
Grand Master
The carnal mind is a sinful mind...
Romans 7:14; Romans 8:7;
So as long as we are in the flesh, that is walking according to our carnal mind and nature, we are bound by sin. Only the Spirit frees us from the bondage of the flesh. Read the Book of Romans and Galatians straight through, and it is clear. When Paul says that the Christian is to walk after the Spirit not after the flesh, it means that he or she is to walk according to the new nature, not the old nature which is corrupt, depraved, and dead.
What does it mean when we say that we must mortify the flesh? Of course it doesnt mean our physical bodies, it is talking about putting to death the sin that wars in our members. Like I said, sin is not just acts of transgression, it is a very real principle that is present and wars in our very members. How does it war against a person and bring a person into captivity? By the fleshly lusts and desires of our sinful flesh.
Romans 7: If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7: 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Posting Freak
Adam's sin -sin entered the world.
In what way? Do you believe sin is in the blood? DNA? Because there's no scripture for such a concept or anything close. It's an assumption. Innocent blood in scripture is not sinless (could be in Psa 106:38), though Jesus was sinless. It simply means the blood was shed without just cause -1Sa 19:5, Pro 1:11. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins, and he was sinless. I guess you could say the life is in the blood and Jesus' life was sinless, but that doesn't put a things called sin in blood so that it was not in Jesus'.
No I do not. There is a law of sin, which is a principle that clearly comes to power after an individual is aware of The Law written on their heart. The principle is that even though you now know what is good to do or not good to do, and you want to do what you ought and don't want to do what you ought not, you'll do the opposite you should. Why? Because The Law cannot do what the the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus can do. The law of sin works in the individual -nature- there's just one. Romans 7 is a battle within an individual -nature- there's just one. How would a law literally exist in an individual? Does God's law literally exist in us? Can you cut a man open and read it? This is about the inner workings of our being, not literal things in us. Hope that makes sense.
Jesus is Lord
Given that Paul uses sin as a noun in Romans, I'd have to say sin is an entity.
Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.
Grand Master
I would not say sin is in the blood, rather it is in the heart. The heart is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked. Not only is the heart deceitful and desperately wicked, it is also unknowable to everyone but God. There is wickedness in a person's heart that is unknown even to them. not aware of. The heart must be purified by faith.
What do you suppose Jesus meant when he said a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and a bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit? Before one is saved, they bring forth bad fruit because they are a bad tree. To find the cause of bad fruit, you have to go to the root, which is the inward part of man. The source of good fruit is the ROOT of all righteousness, that is Christ.
To put it another way, when I say that we inherited a sinful nature from Adam, I do not mean a physical nature, I mean that our spiritual nature, or inner man was fallen in Adam. That is until we were washed, justified, and sanctified through Christ who is our wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. ( 1 Corinthians 1:30)
Our hearts before conversion were not neutral, they were utterly and desperately wicked. There is none who does good, no not one. The Law's purpose was to show us our sins, but Jesus on the sermon on the mount shown the Light not only on our deeds, but also our very heart, our thoughts, our motives, our attitudes, our affections, etc. All of these things were fallen and there was absolutely nothing in our flesh that was good,
Romans 7: 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
In contrast, Jesus' heart was absolute perfection. There was no false motive, no bad attitude, no impurity of thought or intent, everything He thought and willed and desired sprung from the fount of pure unadulterated love. In the natural man, there dwells no good thing. In Christ, there has never been and never will be even a shadow of variation. He is, was and always will be absolute Light, Goodness, Purity, Holiness, and Virtue. Jesus the same yesterday, today, and forever. This is a wonderful thing to contemplate.
No I do not. There is a law of sin, which is a principle that clearly comes to power after an individual is aware of The Law written on their heart. The principle is that even though you now know what is good to do or not good to do, and you want to do what you ought and don't want to do what you ought not, you'll do the opposite you should. Why? Because The Law cannot do what the the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus can do. The law of sin works in the individual -nature- there's just one. Romans 7 is a battle within an individual -nature- there's just one. How would a law literally exist in an individual? Does God's law literally exist in us? Can you cut a man open and read it? This is about the inner workings of our being, not literal things in us. Hope that makes sense.
So what did Paul mean in verse 17 of the following passage?
Romans 7: 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
Conclusion- The Spirit of Christ sets us free from the sin that once held us in captivity.
1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Jesus is Lord
Sin...noun...entity.
Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.
Grand Master
Amen! That is the point I've been trying to make. Thanks for saying it in three simple words! We also know know that sin originates in a person's heart. It is not something that exists outside the person, the externals are merely the enticement. Every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts and enticed.
1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Posting Freak
The mind was not created carnal, being a part of the soul. That's why the previous verse, you failed to post says,
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
If your mindset (mind is set on) is to consume fleshly things, it is death.
You just posted
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
as if that is what we are born with. If that's the case then God is guilty. No!
Greek
sarx for flesh
Some translations say fleshly. The fleshly mind. Clearly negative.
This word is used negatively and as God created us.
Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
2 places of 150 flesh is translated carnal -Rom 8:7, Heb 9:10
1 place of 150 carnally - Rom 8:6
Here's 6 and 7 together as they should be
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
This is not how I used carnal, which is sarkikos, found 11 times, which as I said can be both negative and as God created us.
Rom 15:27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.
1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
So the mind that is set on the carnal is sinning as opposed to the mind set on God and doing righteousness. No great mystery here. Go to the garden. Adam's mind was on fleshly things, not on God's as it should have been, so he reaped death.
Right, but you were not born that way. It says you are walking that way according to.....
Were does it say kill the flesh? Not here!
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Mortify here means to make impotent, not kill, and it says members because the mind is included, and you can't kill the mind.
Here,
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
It says kill deeds, not the flesh.
Posting Freak
Love...noun...entity
Posting Freak
Noun: names or denotes a person, place, thing, action, quality, idea.
.....which is what Paul was doing....and this proves what exactly?
Posting Freak
Why would you do that? Your theology?.....maybe?
Grand Master
Fair enough. What about this one?Were does it say kill the flesh? Not here!
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Mortify here means to make impotent, not kill, and it says members because the mind is included, and you can't kill the mind.
Here,
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
It says kill deeds, not the flesh.
Galatians 5:24-And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Sometimes when the word flesh is used it means "of the body". Other times it means the " sin nature". Allow me to demonstrate.
Philippians 1:22- But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour : yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Philippians 1:24- Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Romans 8:9- But ye are not in the flesh, but inthe Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
In the Philippians passage, "in the flesh" means in the body. Yet in the Romans passage Paul says we are not in the flesh if the Spirit of Christ dwells in us. Now here the flesh does not mean body, but something else, for we are yet in our body.
Colossians 2:11 says that we need to put off the body of sins of the flesh, not just put off the deeds or sins themselves but the body of the sins of the flesh...now it is evident that we don't put off our physical body until we die, so it is evident that there is another body of sin that we need to put off that is not a physical body. Now does the word body mean the various sins themselves. I think not, for Paul mentions this "body of sin" in another place...
Romans 6:6- Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed , that henceforth we should not serve sin.
The body of sin is deprived of it's force and power over us. Now what is this body of sin? I think it is described in Romans 7.
Romans 7: 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.15For that which I do I allow not: for what I would , that do I not; but what I hate , that do I . 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.18 For I know that in me (that is , in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do . 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Tell me, Noeb, what is the Law that Paul is referring to that he said kept bringing him into captivity. Don't say it's the Law of God, because it is called another Law. It also is a law in the members that brings man into captivity to the law of sin in one's members.
How can we be set free from the law of sin and death that seeks to enslave us? The answer is in Romans 8.
Romans 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Have you read post 186?
1 John 1:7- But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
2 Corinthians 7:1- Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Jesus is Lord
Why would you question it?
W
Sunset remembers Eden...sunrise prophesies its return.
Regular Contributor
***
He wasn't judged guilty, because he didn't, yet, know he was naked.
God didn’t create sinful people, but they have always had the potential to sin, and they did.
Can we take a look at the word "naked?" What does it mean in the following verses:
What is it that Jesus blood so effectively covers, if not the sin that is exposed in us?2 Cor 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame
What about the following scriptures (And these are just a handful)?
Lets go backwards into history:Ezek 16:8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
Ezek 16:37 Behold, therefore I will gather all thy lovers, with whom thou hast taken pleasure, and all them that thou hast loved, with all them that thou hast hated; I will even gather them round about against thee, and will discover thy nakedness unto them, that they may see all thy nakedness.
Ezek 23:18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.
Ex 20:26 Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon.
What does Jesus blood cover, but our sins?
What did the sprinkling of blood on the mercy seat represent, but a covering of our sin?
What did the Passover represent, but a covering of our sin?
What did the ark represent in the story of Noah? Had God judge Noah righteous because of a lack of sin? No, he was judged righteous because of his faith as Abraham and everyone else is. If He had not built the ark in faithful obedience, he would have perished as everyone else did. Again, the ark covered Noah’s and his families sin.
And, finally, what did the animal skins represent that God covered Adam and Eve with, but a covering of sin?
Sin = nakedness. Nakedness = sin.
Adam and Eve were naked in the garden before they ate of the fruit. Only they were innocent, and not judged for it, because the weren’t aware of it. Until they disobeyed the only command God had given them, they had no idea they were sinful, just as a toddler might take a toy from one playing near him, never knowing that his deed is wrong until mom or dad tell him it is.
If death had not already been in the world, then what understanding of it would they have had when God warned them about it? From what I know of the original Hebrew, when God said you will surely die, it was like saying, “you wont just die, you will die die!” I think they must have already known something of death.
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