Old Earth and Original Sin

[John 8:32]

Wow. After scanning this meandering thread, I'm not sure where the discussion stands. It appears to me that there is a disconnect, to some, between being fleshly/carnal and having a 'sin nature.' Both of those, to me are saying the same thing. Fleshly/carnal implies nonspiritual, as does sin nature. What is the difference? I see none...do you?

Thanks,

W

Nope. To be carnal is to be fleshly, to have fleshly interests, attitudes, thoughts, etc. To be spiritual is to have spiritual interests, attitudes, thoughts, etc. Doesn't really seem to complicated to me.

[Watchman]

Nope. To be carnal is to be fleshly, to have fleshly interests, attitudes, thoughts, etc. To be spiritual is to have spiritual interests, attitudes, thoughts, etc. Doesn't really seem to complicated to me.

I agree. As federal head of the human race, Adam 'contained' us all...we were all 'in Adam's loins' to borrow a biblical phrase. We sinned 'in Adam' before we were born, just as Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham before Levi was born. Likewise, we are all born as fleshly/carnal creatures because that is what Adam passed on. Recall Jesus said, That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. . The flesh cannot please God, and that is what Adam passed on. We both sinned in Adam, and received (not his sin, but) his fleshly constitution...his nature. The nature, or propensity, of the flesh is to sin, since it cannot please God. I'm not sure how another conclusion could be reached.

blessings,

W

[glad4mercy]

Wow. After scanning this meandering thread, I'm not sure where the discussion stands. It appears to me that there is a disconnect, to some, between being fleshly/carnal and having a 'sin nature.' Both of those, to me are saying the same thing. Fleshly/carnal implies nonspiritual, as does sin nature. What is the difference? I see none...do you?

Thanks,

W

I agree with you Watchman.

I really think that the inherant sinfullness of man is a very important doctrine. We need to know that we really bring nothing to the table as far as goodness. We have nothing that we did not receive freely. To God be the Glory.

[Lily]

. To add to this, I believe that Adam was created righteous, he wasnt God and he had the potential to sin. The angels that fell were also righteous before they transgressed.

I think it's more black and white than that. God is Holy and perfectly righteous. And Adam was either perfectly righteous as God is, or he wasn't. And we know he wasn't. We don't know this because of his potential to sin (that, in itself, is not unrighteousness), but because he sinned.

I don't know anything about the righteousness or unrighteousness of angels, can't argue with you about that.

[glad4mercy]

I think it's more black and white than that. God is Holy and perfectly righteous. And Adam was either perfectly righteous as God is, or he wasn't. And we know he wasn't. We don't know this because of his potential to sin (that, in itself, is not unrighteousness), but because he sinned.

I don't know anything about the righteousness or unrighteousness of angels, can't argue with you about that.

Adam was righteous in the sense that he was

a. innocent
B. Faultless
C. Guiltless
D. Upright
E. Approved and accepted by God,

until he fell into sin. Then the blood sacrifices began, which really didnt take away sin, but pointed forward to the Lamb of God who would come to bear the sins of the world.

[Lily]

That's a stretch, don't you think? If God created them naked, I would think - going on what we do read in Genesis 2 and 3 - that they would have become aware of their nakedness the first time (either their physical nakedness or their spiritual nakedness). It would not have taken them a couple tries before they realized, 'Oh, we've sinned'. If they were created naked and then clothed themselves, it would be weird of them to remove their clothes, only to then realize some time later they were naked (because of sin), then have God create clothes for them. Then there's the matter of God ignoring their initial sin before stepping in, and ignoring their sin to the point of 'walking and talking' with them in the Garden. I realize you said earlier that Jesus did the very same, but the creation narrative is very different from the accounts of Jesus' life in the Gospels. When considering Adam and Eve, this is where things, traditionally understood, go wrong, and the curses of Genesis 3 are brought into view. It just seems odd for God to ignore some sins and not others, and I'm not inclined to see Adam and Eve as sinning ignorantly, as according to the account there was only one thing they couldn't do.

Unrighteousness includes sins we aren’t even aware we’re committing.

It’s like the Jews who weren’t even aware of their sin. Like Paul, before his conversion. He sincerely believed he was doing everything right in obeying the letter of the law. He says he was “zealous toward God” It wasn’t until he had a face to face encounter with Jesus that he became aware of his sin. To stress the point, he’s even physically blinded for a “season,” until he, finally, fully understands (or at least that’s the impression we’re left with).

Regardless of how many commandments are given - whether one to Adam and Eve, 10 or 613 to Israel, or 2 to Christians - what constitutes righteousness has always remained the same. Love God and each other (perfectly). Adam and Eve may have only had one commandment, but breaking that specific commandment wasn’t the only sin they could commit.

That's just the first one they were aware they committed. It was effective in showing them their unrighteousness as the law was in showing us ours.

[Watchman]

Adam was created innocent of transgression. His choices dictated whether he believed God (aka whether he was righteous), or whether he did not (aka unrighteous).

[John 8:32]

I agree. As federal head of the human race, Adam 'contained' us all...we were all 'in Adam's loins' to borrow a biblical phrase. We sinned 'in Adam' before we were born, just as Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham before Levi was born. Likewise, we are all born as fleshly/carnal creatures because that is what Adam passed on. Recall Jesus said, That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. . The flesh cannot please God, and that is what Adam passed on. We both sinned in Adam, and received (not his sin, but) his fleshly constitution...his nature. The nature, or propensity, of the flesh is to sin, since it cannot please God. I'm not sure how another conclusion could be reached.

blessings,

W

Can't rep you, but you nailed it.

[Sojourner55]

Can't rep you, but you nailed it.

I agree. I repped him for both of us.

[Noeb]

So you believe that our nature is neither good nor evil when we are born,

Correct.

We certainly have never had a good nature apart from Divine Grace.

Did Adam have divine grace?

Paul said that according to the righteousness that is of the Law he was blameless even before conversion, yet in another place he said in his flesh there is no good thing.

I don't know what ceremonial righteousness has to do with it, and as I pointed out already, Paul didn't say anything about how he was born, just his condition after knowledge of sin because of the commandment, just like the rest of scripture teaches.

I do not believe that humans are good by nature, because that is contrary to what the Bible teaches.

Well, God said very good, so why don't you believe it? I know that's 'very good for his purpose', but it still very much holds true. If we are not good, and we are not neutral, what's left? We cannot blame God, and you can't blame Adam or Satan for some nature they had no power to change. Part of our nature is our spirit which is from God. Another is our created soul. The other is our body. Two of three are directly from God, so now how are we sinful? To teach anything other than neutrality is contrary to the bible.

We are in the image of God, but Adam's image is also transmitted to us, ( 1 Corinthians 15:49).

Same Image. All that says is that we are man - the way he created Adam.

We proceeded from him, he was corrupted by sin, therefore we also are corrupted by sin. This is the preponderance of what the Bible teaches regarding our sinful nature.

None of this is anywhere in scripture. You can't pass sin. It is not a thing. Not biblical.

It happened because Adam was the head of the human race.

You didn't answer the question. How was the image of God changed? Especially if we are still in his image? That just doesn't make sense. Was it altered and if so who altered it? Scripture?

Isn't it obvious to you that everything was effected by the Fall?

How does this relate? Do you believe life cycles did not exist, but when Adam sinned, wham, life cycles? That God totally remade everything in an instant? Somehow that part didn't get written down. I believe every thing was effected but as we see in scripture, through time.

Jesus " there is none good except God"

Explained.

Paul " In my flesh there is dwelling no good thing"

Explained. Twice.

David " I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

This is just like Paul being sold into carnality by Adam's sin. So was his mother and as a result she was dead in her sin.

Romans 5:12 says that "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so, death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

Paul said he was sold into carnality by Adam's sin.

Now if sin here is referring to personal sin, not to original sin, why do infants and unborn babies die?

It's not personal sin. God knew all men would sin without him. Adam did with him. Remember? many be designated sinners?

It shows that in our natural state apart from Christ we are radically depraved. Before Christ, we were rotten to the very core. It is not a popular saying, but it is what the Bible teaches.

Fine, but how does this support original sin? Adam was the natural state. You quoted it earlier -1Cor 15. He wasn't radically depraved, but neither are we. Read Romans 1 lately? People there end up rotten to the core. Did they start that way? Nope.

[Athanasius]

Unrighteousness includes sins we aren’t even aware we’re committing.

It’s like the Jews who weren’t even aware of their sin. Like Paul, before his conversion. He sincerely believed he was doing everything right in obeying the letter of the law. He says he was “zealous toward God” It wasn’t until he had a face to face encounter with Jesus that he became aware of his sin. To stress the point, he’s even physically blinded for a “season,” until he, finally, fully understands (or at least that’s the impression we’re left with).

Regardless of how many commandments are given - whether one to Adam and Eve, 10 or 613 to Israel, or 2 to Christians - what constitutes righteousness has always remained the same. Love God and each other (perfectly). Adam and Eve may have only had one commandment, but breaking that specific commandment wasn’t the only sin they could commit.

That's just the first one they were aware they committed. It was effective in showing them their unrighteousness as the law was in showing us ours.

What were these other sins God let them merrily commit, unawares that they were doing so?

[Noeb]

Nope. To be carnal is to be fleshly, to have fleshly interests, attitudes, thoughts, etc. To be spiritual is to have spiritual interests, attitudes, thoughts, etc. Doesn't really seem to complicated to me.

Doesn't really seem to complicated to me either.

[Noeb]

I agree. As federal head of the human race, Adam 'contained' us all...we were all 'in Adam's loins' to borrow a biblical phrase. We sinned 'in Adam' before we were born, just as Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham before Levi was born. Likewise, we are all born as fleshly/carnal creatures because that is what Adam passed on. Recall Jesus said, That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. . The flesh cannot please God, and that is what Adam passed on. We both sinned in Adam, and received (not his sin, but) his fleshly constitution...his nature. The nature, or propensity, of the flesh is to sin, since it cannot please God. I'm not sure how another conclusion could be reached.

blessings,

W

Sounds good, except the propensity part. Did Adam sin without this 'propensity'? The only things that changed for the rest of us after he sinned was our 'relationship' with God and no tree of life. Though one can argue God continued to talk to his children as he did with Adam. This 'propensity' is not a result of a change in nature, as no scripture even hints of any such change, but a change in 'relationship'. God didn't just create Adam righteous and give him character. Those are earned through obedience. It is as wrong to say Adam was created righteousness as it is to say he was created sinful. To say "the flesh cannot please God" is twisting scripture, and is to say Adam could not have pleased God. Is that what you believe? No. Adam was flesh. So was Christ and he pleased the Father as Adam was supposed to.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

What you believe is that those that are after the flesh/carnally minded/in the flesh cannot please God, right?

[Noeb]

I really think that the inherant sinfullness of man is a very important doctrine.

Even more important is the doctrine that God is just.

We need to know that we really bring nothing to the table as far as goodness. We have nothing that we did not receive freely. To God be the Glory.

Amen!

[Noeb]

Adam was created innocent of transgression. His choices dictated whether he believed God (aka whether he was righteous), or whether he did not (aka unrighteous).

That's true for us all.