Old Earth and Original Sin

[glad4mercy]

I have a problem with allegorizing some OT tales while taking others literally. When I read the Hebrews 11, I see references to the Abel, Enoch, Noah,Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, etc. Now folks who interpret some parts of the OT allegorically and other parts literally are basically saying that the writer of Hebrews, ( in chapter 11) took examples from both historical and non historical events and people and mixed them together to teach us about faith. Yet in the beginning and the end of the chapter, the persons used as examples in Hebrews 11 are referred to as the "elders".

Hebrews 11:2- For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Hebrews 11: 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Since in verse 39, they are said to have received a good report, (the same description used in verse two), could it be that the persons listed throughout the chapter are the elders spoken of in verse 2? If so, in what sense could a mythical character be called an elder?

Additionally, verse 40 says this...

Hebrews 11: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

How could a mythical character be made perfect?

How could this statement be referring to mythical people. Remember, verse 39 says that they all received a good report.

[Raybob]

The entire Book of Genesis is ancient oriental literature ...

Wow. I never knew Moses was Asian. How did you find this out, and how come I've never seen or read that anywhere until now?

[Jemand]

I have a problem with allegorizing some OT tales while taking others literally. When I read the Hebrews 11, I see references to the Abel, Enoch, Noah,Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, etc. Now folks who interpret some parts of the OT allegorically and other parts literally are basically saying that the writer of Hebrews, ( in chapter 11) took examples from both historical and non historical events and people and mixed them together to teach us about faith. Yet in the beginning and the end of the chapter, the persons used as examples in Hebrews 11 are referred to as the "elders".

Hebrews 11:2- For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Hebrews 11: 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Since in verse 39, they are said to have received a good report, (the same description used in verse two), could it be that the persons listed throughout the chapter are the elders spoken of in verse 2? If so, in what sense could a mythical character be called an elder?

Additionally, verse 40 says this...

Hebrews 11: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

How could a mythical character be made perfect?

How could this statement be referring to mythical people. Remember, verse 39 says that they all received a good report.

First of all we need to distinguish between allegories and myths and legends.

allegory
1.
a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby-Dick are allegories.
2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

legend
1.
a. An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical.
b. A body or collection of such stories.
c. See urban legend.
2. One that inspires legends or achieves legendary fame: She is a legend in her own time.
3.
a. An inscription or title on an object, such as a coin.
b. An explanatory caption accompanying an illustration.
c. An explanatory table or list of the symbols appearing on a map or chart.

myth
1.
a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: “German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth”(Leon Wolff) .

(The above definitions are from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition)

We find in Galatians 4:21-31 an example of an allegory in the Bible,

Gal. 4:21. Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law?
22. For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman.
23. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise.
24. Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
25. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
27. For it is written, “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in travail; for the children of the desolate one are many more than the children of her that is married.”
28. Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now.
30. But what does the scripture say? “Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”
31. So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. (RSV)

Genesis 1-11 is a redacted collection of epic tales or sagas that may be either legends or myths. In the eleventh chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews, we find references to characters in Biblical stories who acted out their faith. Whether the characters were actual people is irrelevant to the point that the author of the epistle is making. We find such references in several places in the New Testament. We also find such references in today’s literature. For example, in another thread, I wrote,

The “state of saying nothing or very little, silence,” is the state in which women in a Christian assembly composed of both men and woman are to be. That is, in such an assembly, the women are not to speak (other than to perhaps utter a greeting when first walking into the room). The reason for this state is not cultural, as some modernists and feminists have falsely alleged; the reason for this state is that there is a fundamental difference between men and women. This fundamental difference was present in the Garden, it was present in the first century church, and it is present in every church around the world today in which there are both men and women. That difference is delineated in vv. 12-13 quoted above.

Paul is telling Timothy, a young pastor, that women MUST “quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness,” and that he, the Apostle Paul, does not “allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man.” He then adds that women must remain quiet. We have seen that the best lexicographers, linguists, Bible translators, and commentators on the Greek text of the Pastoral Epistles agree that the Greek noun translated as “quiet” in verse 12 means to not speak and to be silent. We have also seen that the English adverb “quietly” in verse 11 is, in the Greek text, the noun (the same noun) that is used in verse 12. It is translated here as an adverb do to the differences between Greek and English syntax. There is no mention of any culture, ancient or modern, and Paul expressly tells Timothy that the instruction that he has laid down as an Apostle of Christ Jesus is based upon the Old Testament teaching about the sin of Eve in the Garden. It is NOT based upon any cultural considerations; it is based upon the sin of Eve in the Garden.

[Mark F]

First of all we need to distinguish between allegories and myths and legends.

allegory
1.
a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby-Dick are allegories.
2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

legend
1.
a. An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical.
b. A body or collection of such stories.
c. See urban legend.
2. One that inspires legends or achieves legendary fame: She is a legend in her own time.
3.
a. An inscription or title on an object, such as a coin.
b. An explanatory caption accompanying an illustration.
c. An explanatory table or list of the symbols appearing on a map or chart.

myth
1.
a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: “German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth”(Leon Wolff) .

(The above definitions are from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition)

We find in Galatians 4:21-31 an example of an allegory in the Bible,

Gal. 4:21. Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law?
22. For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman.
23. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise.
24. Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
25. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
27. For it is written, “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in travail; for the children of the desolate one are many more than the children of her that is married.”
28. Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now.
30. But what does the scripture say? “Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”
31. So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. (RSV)

Genesis 1-11 is a redacted collection of epic tales or sagas that may be either legends or myths. In the eleventh chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews, we find references to characters in Biblical stories who acted out their faith. Whether the characters were actual people is irrelevant to the point that the author of the epistle is making. We find such references in several places in the New Testament. We also find such references in today’s literature. For example, in another thread, I wrote,

The “state of saying nothing or very little, silence,” is the state in which women in a Christian assembly composed of both men and woman are to be. That is, in such an assembly, the women are not to speak (other than to perhaps utter a greeting when first walking into the room). The reason for this state is not cultural, as some modernists and feminists have falsely alleged; the reason for this state is that there is a fundamental difference between men and women. This fundamental difference was present in the Garden, it was present in the first century church, and it is present in every church around the world today in which there are both men and women. That difference is delineated in vv. 12-13 quoted above.

Paul is telling Timothy, a young pastor, that women MUST “quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness,” and that he, the Apostle Paul, does not “allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man.” He then adds that women must remain quiet. We have seen that the best lexicographers, linguists, Bible translators, and commentators on the Greek text of the Pastoral Epistles agree that the Greek noun translated as “quiet” in verse 12 means to not speak and to be silent. We have also seen that the English adverb “quietly” in verse 11 is, in the Greek text, the noun (the same noun) that is used in verse 12. It is translated here as an adverb do to the differences between Greek and English syntax. There is no mention of any culture, ancient or modern, and Paul expressly tells Timothy that the instruction that he has laid down as an Apostle of Christ Jesus is based upon the Old Testament teaching about the sin of Eve in the Garden. It is NOT based upon any cultural considerations; it is based upon the sin of Eve in the Garden.

This does not mean that the account of Hagar and Sarah is an allegory, but that the actual events are such as they represent a greater truth intended to teach that behind all events is the hand of God working all things toward His greater purpose.

[Mark F]

When God created everything that first week, He created Adam as a full grown man, not an infant. He was old enough on day one to till a garden and take care of things. Everything on the earth was created as old as it needed to be when it was created. including the rocks, however million years a rock has to exist before it's a rock. Just because something appears 100,000 years old, it appeared to be about the same age, the day it was created, 6,000+/- years ago.

Raybob, I have considered what you mention here as well, I am convinced though that it is not necessary to support a young earth. In a sense it implies that God is tricking us by making thing appear old when they are young.

Most of what is taught where beginnings are concerned is not good science which is verifiable, repeatable. They teach that order came from chaos which absolutely is unreapeatable.

I believe that the pre-flood world was subject to many different conditions than us, like atmospheric pressure being greater, the speed of light being much faster. These things account for longevity and the appearane of age by the great distances the stars and planets are away.

Ez 28:11-19 tells us that Satan was in the garden of God and the way I understand it, it was pre-fall. That would put him there in an unfallen state after Gen 1:2, the implications for me is that excludes the gap theory.

I think that just like the Bible says, about 6,000 years ago God created the heavens and the earth, then there was a world wide flood......

[Jemand]

I agree with Raybob that the earth appears to be very old; and I agree with Mark F that if that is the case, “In a sense it implies that God is tricking us by making thing appear old when they are young.” God is not a deceiver or a trickster, and the earth does appear to be billions of years old. Indeed, the age of the earth can and has been measured using radiometic dating.

I am presenting to you a link to an excellent article on radiometric dating from an informed evangelical Christian perspective. The article was written by Dr. Roger C. Wiens. His Ph.D. thesis was on isotope ratios in meteorites.

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

Here is a very brief quote from the article:

As Christians it is of great importance that we understand God's word correctly. Yet from the middle ages up until the 1700s people insisted that the Bible taught that the Earth, not the Sun, was the center of the solar system. It wasn't that people just thought it had to be that way; they actually quoted scriptures: “The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved” (Psalm 104:5), or “the sun stood still” (Joshua 10:13; why should it say the sun stood still if it is the Earth's rotation that causes day and night?), and many other passages. I am afraid the debate over the age of the Earth has many similarities. But I am optimistic. Today there are many Christians who accept the reliability of geologic dating, but do not compromise the spiritual and historical inerrancy of God's word. While a full discussion of Genesis 1 is not given here, references are given below to a few books that deal with that issue.

As scientists, we deal daily with what God has revealed about Himself through the created universe. The psalmist marveled at how God, Creator of the universe, could care about humans: "When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have set in place, what is man that You are mindful of him, the son of man that You care for him?" (Psalm 8:3-4). Near the beginning of the twenty-first century we can marvel all the more, knowing how vast the universe is, how ancient are the rocks and hills, and how carefully our environment has been designed. Truly God is more awesome than we can imagine!

[Saved7]

This does not mean that the account of Hagar and Sarah is an allegory, but that the actual events are such as they represent a greater truth intended to teach that behind all events is the hand of God working all things toward His greater purpose.

Right! ..............

[John 8:32]

First of all we need to distinguish between allegories and myths and legends.

allegory
1.
a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby-Dick are allegories.
2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

legend
1.
a. An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical.
b. A body or collection of such stories.
c. See urban legend.
2. One that inspires legends or achieves legendary fame: She is a legend in her own time.
3.
a. An inscription or title on an object, such as a coin.
b. An explanatory caption accompanying an illustration.
c. An explanatory table or list of the symbols appearing on a map or chart.

myth
1.
a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: “German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth”(Leon Wolff) .

(The above definitions are from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition)

We find in Galatians 4:21-31 an example of an allegory in the Bible,

Gal. 4:21. Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law?
22. For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman.
23. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise.
24. Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
25. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
27. For it is written, “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in travail; for the children of the desolate one are many more than the children of her that is married.”
28. Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now.
30. But what does the scripture say? “Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”
31. So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. (RSV)

Genesis 1-11 is a redacted collection of epic tales or sagas that may be either legends or myths. In the eleventh chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews, we find references to characters in Biblical stories who acted out their faith. Whether the characters were actual people is irrelevant to the point that the author of the epistle is making. We find such references in several places in the New Testament. We also find such references in today’s literature. For example, in another thread, I wrote,

The “state of saying nothing or very little, silence,” is the state in which women in a Christian assembly composed of both men and woman are to be. That is, in such an assembly, the women are not to speak (other than to perhaps utter a greeting when first walking into the room). The reason for this state is not cultural, as some modernists and feminists have falsely alleged; the reason for this state is that there is a fundamental difference between men and women. This fundamental difference was present in the Garden, it was present in the first century church, and it is present in every church around the world today in which there are both men and women. That difference is delineated in vv. 12-13 quoted above.

Paul is telling Timothy, a young pastor, that women MUST “quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness,” and that he, the Apostle Paul, does not “allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man.” He then adds that women must remain quiet. We have seen that the best lexicographers, linguists, Bible translators, and commentators on the Greek text of the Pastoral Epistles agree that the Greek noun translated as “quiet” in verse 12 means to not speak and to be silent. We have also seen that the English adverb “quietly” in verse 11 is, in the Greek text, the noun (the same noun) that is used in verse 12. It is translated here as an adverb do to the differences between Greek and English syntax. There is no mention of any culture, ancient or modern, and Paul expressly tells Timothy that the instruction that he has laid down as an Apostle of Christ Jesus is based upon the Old Testament teaching about the sin of Eve in the Garden. It is NOT based upon any cultural considerations; it is based upon the sin of Eve in the Garden.

Well that tells me all I need to know. All I need to know about you and your theological ramblings. adios me boyo

[Raybob]

...I am presenting to you a link to an excellent article on radiometric dating from an informed evangelical Christian perspective. The article was written by Dr. Roger C. Wiens. His Ph.D. thesis was on isotope ratios in meteorites.

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html

Here is a very brief quote from the article:

As Christians it is of great importance that we understand God's word correctly. Yet from the middle ages up until the 1700s people insisted that the Bible taught that the Earth, not the Sun, was the center of the solar system. It wasn't that people just thought it had to be that way; they actually quoted scriptures: “The Earth is firmly fixed; it shall not be moved” (Psalm 104:5), or “the sun stood still” (Joshua 10:13; why should it say the sun stood still if it is the Earth's rotation that causes day and night?), and many other passages. I am afraid the debate over the age of the Earth has many similarities. But I am optimistic. Today there are many Christians who accept the reliability of geologic dating, but do not compromise the spiritual and historical inerrancy of God's word. While a full discussion of Genesis 1 is not given here, references are given below to a few books that deal with that issue....

Actually, it was in the 1400s that Copernicus came up with his "theory" that the earth revolves around the sun. That theory eventually led the way to Darwinism. I don't believe it. The earth is the center of our universe. The theory that the earth revolves around the sun, is just that, a theory. What revolves around what depends on one's perspective. If you set up the model with the sun in the center, that's your model. If you take the same planetary motions as seen from earth, that's my perspective. For more informative information on that topic, please see fixedearth.com.


1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

[teddyv]

Actually, it was in the 1400s that Copernicus came up with his "theory" that the earth revolves around the sun. That theory eventually led the way to Darwinism. I don't believe it. The earth is the center of our universe. The theory that the earth revolves around the sun, is just that, a theory. What revolves around what depends on one's perspective. If you set up the model with the sun in the center, that's your model. If you take the same planetary motions as seen from earth, that's my perspective. For more informative information on that topic, please see fixedearth.com

How did Copernicus lead to evolutionary theory?

[Jemand]

Actually, it was in the 1400s that Copernicus came up with his "theory" that the earth revolves around the sun. That theory eventually led the way to Darwinism. I don't believe it. The earth is the center of our universe. The theory that the earth revolves around the sun, is just that, a theory. What revolves around what depends on one's perspective. If you set up the model with the sun in the center, that's your model. If you take the same planetary motions as seen from earth, that's my perspective. For more informative information on that topic, please see fixedearth.com.


1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Actually, Copernicus realized early in the 1500’s that the earth revolves around the sun, but he did not publish his theory until 1543. Even as recently at the 1700’s, very many Christians refused to accept the truth of the theory because it contradicts the ancient view found in the Old Testament. Even today, there are still Christians here and there who, because of their inadequate knowledge of the literature of the Old Testament and the culture in which it was written—not to mention physics and astronomy!—still believe that the earth is the center of universe and that the sun revolves around the earth. Some of them also believe that the earth is flat.

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djubl...rthsociety.htm

Indeed, the Old Testament more clearly teaches that the earth is flat than it teaches that the earth is the center of the universe. And of course, we know that the earth is flat not only because the Bible says that it is, but because if it was round like the scientists claim, we would roll right of it! Scientists think that they are smarter than the Bible. How ridiculous! The scientists are conspiring against the Bible because they make a lot of money selling globes!

http://www.worldglobes.com/?source=g...FWQKRQod_0Bh3g

[Raybob]

How did Copernicus lead to evolutionary theory?

This was copied off of that link I provided a little way down the first page.

"

Fact: The Copernican Revolution torpedoed Bible credibility and paved the way for the Darwinian Revolution over 300 years later. Fact: The success of Copernicanism established theory over observation in the sciences of mathematics and astronomy. Fact: That success paved the way for establishing theory over observation in the bio-chemical sciences through Darwinism. Both of these factless theories torpedoed the Bible's credibility, BUT, only by attacking the Copernican foundation of Space Science's Big Bang Evolutionary Paradigm can the evolution myth be revealed and destroyed.

. ... The reason why this extraordinary stonewalling from Creationists will become blatantly hypocritical if they don't repent and change early in Babylon's Fall, is this: It is no secret that the Bible plainly teaches over three score times that it is the sun that moves, not the earth!! [4] These Creationist Organizations (and their churches) all state categorically and repeatedly that they are the true guardians of Bible inerrancy and young earth creationism. They preach that everyone--Christians especially--should join their battle to expose and defeat evolutionism in the schools and elsewhere by rejecting Darwinism in spite of loosing every challenge they have made in the courts, and in spite of ignoring the unbeatable legal strategy which cannot lose in the courts and which was spelled out for them 5 years ago [5] - [6] "

[teddyv]

This was copied off of that link I provided a little way down the first page.

That website is format challenged.

"

Fact: The Copernican Revolution torpedoed Bible credibility and paved the way for the Darwinian Revolution over 300 years later. Fact: The success of Copernicanism established theory over observation in the sciences of mathematics and astronomy. Fact: That success paved the way for establishing theory over observation in the bio-chemical sciences through Darwinism. Both of these factless theories torpedoed the Bible's credibility, BUT, only by attacking the Copernican foundation of Space Science's Big Bang Evolutionary Paradigm can the evolution myth be revealed and destroyed.

.

Observations support Copernican theory. We've sent a lot of remote probes to investigate other planets. Parallax. And anyway, there were other reasons why the rise of science and humanism triumphed over Christianity through the middle ages/Renaissance, culminating with the Enlightenment.

... The reason why this extraordinary stonewalling from Creationists will become blatantly hypocritical if they don't repent and change early in Babylon's Fall, is this: It is no secret that the Bible plainly teaches over three score times that it is the sun that moves, not the earth!! [4] These Creationist Organizations (and their churches) all state categorically and repeatedly that they are the true guardians of Bible inerrancy and young earth creationism. They preach that everyone--Christians especially--should join their battle to expose and defeat evolutionism in the schools and elsewhere by rejecting Darwinism in spite of loosing every challenge they have made in the courts, and in spite of ignoring the unbeatable legal strategy which cannot lose in the courts and which was spelled out for them 5 years ago [5] - [6] "

So the author of this website is also against proponents of YEC?

[Raybob]

That website is format challenged.

Observations support Copernican theory. We've sent a lot of remote probes to investigate other planets. Parallax. And anyway, there were other reasons why the rise of science and humanism triumphed over Christianity through the middle ages/Renaissance, culminating with the Enlightenment.

More from another page of that site should help here:

"OK you think, but: "Every textbook and library in the world today explains those simple observations as being illusions caused by the daily rotation of the earth as it goes around the sun."

Yet, there isn't a scientist in the world today who can prove the earth is rotating or orbiting the sun! Not one. The only "evidence" for these movements--and all that is built upon them up to and including the Big Bang Paradigm--is that they "explain" the "Solar" System & the Universe (if assumptions are granted at every stage!).

But so does the Biblical non-moving earth model explain all the KNOWN heavenly phenomena!! The word "science" (scire) means "to know". The word "assume" or "assumption" means "you don't know". The rotating earth model is an assumption. If one grants Copernicus the assumption that the earth rotates, then the model can be built by granting all of its assumptions. [4] That is Science-Fiction, not science! Or, as the Bible calls it: "profane and vain babbling of science falsely so -called."

So: Universities and Religions gradually granted those assumptions over the centuries. This fact means that the Copernican Model and the Big Bang Universe built upon it are science-fiction deceptions. But why is the Big Bang dependent upon Copernicanism, some will ask??

Well: The historical record shows that acceptance of Copernicanism begat a procession of assumption-based "reasoning" which "evolved" like this: 1) The sun is just one of innumerable stars. 2) The earth is just one of the planets going around the sun. 3) The earth is "luckily" at the right distance from the sun for life to "evolve". 4) Since life "evolved" here, it "logically" has evolved countless times around the alleged trillions of stars/suns. [5 pp.14,15) 5) "Objective secular science" (hah!) steadily increased the earth's age (Darwin: 306,662,400 years; today, 4.6 billion years) [6] ), and star distances have gone from 1000's of miles to billions of light years. [7]-[8] 6) The Big Terminology of the mid-20th century--along with Einstein's 1905 & 1916 "relativity" theory; Penzias' 1965 radiation "discovery"; Sagan's programming of NASA's computers etc. [9] produced today's factless, idolized Big Bang Fraud-Based Virtual Reality Universe.

Add phony math [10] high tech fraud [11]-[12]-13] telescope and camera "designs" [14] which prop up the Babylon of Deception, and this overriding fact screams the loudest and explains it all: Every concept which make up the Big Bang Idol came out of the "holy book" Zohar/Kabbala. Think of it! A Christ-hating Satan-worshiping Religion [15]-[16] has duped the world by masquerading as "non-religious theoretical science"!!"

So the author of this website is also against proponents of YEC?

No.

[glad4mercy]

First of all we need to distinguish between allegories and myths and legends.

allegory
1.
a. The representation of abstract ideas or principles by characters, figures, or events in narrative, dramatic, or pictorial form.
b. A story, picture, or play employing such representation. John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress and Herman Melville's Moby-Dick are allegories.
2. A symbolic representation: The blindfolded figure with scales is an allegory of justice.

legend
1.
a. An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical.
b. A body or collection of such stories.
c. See urban legend.
2. One that inspires legends or achieves legendary fame: She is a legend in her own time.
3.
a. An inscription or title on an object, such as a coin.
b. An explanatory caption accompanying an illustration.
c. An explanatory table or list of the symbols appearing on a map or chart.

myth
1.
a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing: “German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth”(Leon Wolff) .

(The above definitions are from The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition)

We find in Galatians 4:21-31 an example of an allegory in the Bible,

Gal. 4:21. Tell me, you who desire to be under law, do you not hear the law?
22. For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave and one by a free woman.
23. But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, the son of the free woman through promise.
24. Now this is an allegory: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.
25. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
27. For it is written, “Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and shout, you who are not in travail; for the children of the desolate one are many more than the children of her that is married.”
28. Now we, brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now.
30. But what does the scripture say? “Cast out the slave and her son; for the son of the slave shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.”
31. So, brethren, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman. (RSV)

Genesis 1-11 is a redacted collection of epic tales or sagas that may be either legends or myths. In the eleventh chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews, we find references to characters in Biblical stories who acted out their faith. Whether the characters were actual people is irrelevant to the point that the author of the epistle is making. We find such references in several places in the New Testament. We also find such references in today’s literature. For example, in another thread, I wrote,

The “state of saying nothing or very little, silence,” is the state in which women in a Christian assembly composed of both men and woman are to be. That is, in such an assembly, the women are not to speak (other than to perhaps utter a greeting when first walking into the room). The reason for this state is not cultural, as some modernists and feminists have falsely alleged; the reason for this state is that there is a fundamental difference between men and women. This fundamental difference was present in the Garden, it was present in the first century church, and it is present in every church around the world today in which there are both men and women. That difference is delineated in vv. 12-13 quoted above.

Paul is telling Timothy, a young pastor, that women MUST “quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness,” and that he, the Apostle Paul, does not “allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man.” He then adds that women must remain quiet. We have seen that the best lexicographers, linguists, Bible translators, and commentators on the Greek text of the Pastoral Epistles agree that the Greek noun translated as “quiet” in verse 12 means to not speak and to be silent. We have also seen that the English adverb “quietly” in verse 11 is, in the Greek text, the noun (the same noun) that is used in verse 12. It is translated here as an adverb do to the differences between Greek and English syntax. There is no mention of any culture, ancient or modern, and Paul expressly tells Timothy that the instruction that he has laid down as an Apostle of Christ Jesus is based upon the Old Testament teaching about the sin of Eve in the Garden. It is NOT based upon any cultural considerations; it is based upon the sin of Eve in the Garden.

Interesting post, Jemand. Good point about Galatians 4, yet I will say that Galatians is a different type of literature than Genesis. Of course we use allegories all the time, so did Jesus and the apostles. Perhaps my point can be better stated by saying that I do not agree with saying that the Old Testament or the Bible as a whole is a mixture of true historical accounts and legends and myths. I don't think that the writer of Hebrews in Hebrews 11 was referring to a mixture of mythical and real historical people. He was clearly referring to them as people that really lived, calling them elders, saying they received a good report, and that they apart from us were not perfected, and that God has provided a better thing for us. I just don't see how this passage and others can be referring to a combination of real and fictional characters.

So while I agree that the writers of the Bible at times used allegory, that is not the same thing as saying that the Bible contains myths or legends. I am strong in my belief that the Bible does not contain myths or fables or legends. I like what Mark F said about Galatians 4 in post 19. I think Paul was using a real historical event to describe something else, just as Jesus did in John 3 regarding the serpent that was lifted up on a pole.

Jemand, do you believe that the crossing of the Red Sea, the Exodus from Egypt, and the feeding of the Israelites with manna actually happened, as I do? These biblical passages are also used to represent other things, just as Isaac and Ismael are. For example, Matthew uses the prophet's statement, "out of Egypt I have called my Son" to speak of Christ, yet I imagine it also refers to Israel. There is no reason that real historical events cannot be used to illustrate a deeper meaning.

Blessings.