Old Earth and Original Sin

[glad4mercy]

Even more important is the doctrine that God is just.

Amen, this is true. The doctrine that God is Just and that God is Love and His other attributes as well. Our focus needs to be on God not ourselves. Our awareness of our sinful condition is meant to lead us to Christ, and makes us humble and grateful afterwards.

[glad4mercy]

Correct.


Did Adam have divine grace?


I don't know what ceremonial righteousness has to do with it, and as I pointed out already, Paul didn't say anything about how he was born, just his condition after knowledge of sin because of the commandment, just like the rest of scripture teaches.


Well, God said very good, so why don't you believe it? I know that's 'very good for his purpose', but it still very much holds true. If we are not good, and we are not neutral, what's left? We cannot blame God, and you can't blame Adam or Satan for some nature they had no power to change. Part of our nature is our spirit which is from God. Another is our created soul. The other is our body. Two of three are directly from God, so now how are we sinful? To teach anything other than neutrality is contrary to the bible.


Same Image. All that says is that we are man - the way he created Adam.


None of this is anywhere in scripture. You can't pass sin. It is not a thing. Not biblical.


You didn't answer the question. How was the image of God changed? Especially if we are still in his image? That just doesn't make sense. Was it altered and if so who altered it? Scripture?


How does this relate? Do you believe life cycles did not exist, but when Adam sinned, wham, life cycles? That God totally remade everything in an instant? Somehow that part didn't get written down. I believe every thing was effected but as we see in scripture, through time.


Explained.

Explained. Twice.

This is just like Paul being sold into carnality by Adam's sin. So was his mother and as a result she was dead in her sin.

Paul said he was sold into carnality by Adam's sin.


It's not personal sin. God knew all men would sin without him. Adam did with him. Remember? many be designated sinners?


Fine, but how does this support original sin? Adam was the natural state. You quoted it earlier -1Cor 15. He wasn't radically depraved, but neither are we. Read Romans 1 lately? People there end up rotten to the core. Did they start that way? Nope.

Perhaps you are confusing man's original state before the fall and his state after the fall. I personally am in agreement with post 242. Watchman summed it up perfectly imo. This is where I stand. If you disagree, that's fine, but the only One who is going to convince me otherwise is the Holy Spirit. Don't worry. I am in submission to the truth, so if I am in any area otherwise minded to the truth, I am confident God will reveal it to me.

Good discussion. We agree on much and we disagree on a little, but I have learned even from what we disagree on. Blessings.

[Noeb]

Perhaps you are confusing man's original state before the fall and his state after the fall. I personally am in agreement with post 242.

Exactly why I answered that post the way I did.
http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...19#post2856419
And why didn't you answer this question?
Did Adam have divine grace?

There's only one state. No one has ever been able to show more than one state in Adam or connect the propensity in us just to our nature using scripture. It's a change in relationship and a change in Adam's nature, they say. Proponents of original sin refuse to except that the only scriptural reason for our propensity is a change in relationship/being sold by Adam's sin into carnality, and that this carnality and separation from the tree of life are the only two things that happened because of Adam's sin. I don't understand why this is not enough. Why must we add to that a change to Adam's nature when it has no scriptural basis and is not necessary?

So here's two questions. How would something spiritual from Adam have been passed down had he not sinned, and where's the scriptural basis for this thought/concept? If you can't find it, you need to ask yourself how the same happens because he sinned and find a scriptural basis. If you can't, stick to what we all know it actually says.

Put simply;
man before the fall --body+spirit=soul +God
man after the fall ---body+spirit=soul

Where's the change in nature?

Paul said we are sold by Adam's sin into carnality then we naturally (by nature - according to the course of this world) walk in the lust of the flesh and desires of the flesh and of the mind. That's not our nature, but a result of not having God from birth like Adam (first) and Jesus (last) did.

Good discussion. We agree on much and we disagree on a little, but I have learned even from what we disagree on. Blessings.

Me too! Thank you!

[Watchman]

I agree. As federal head of the human race, Adam 'contained' us all...we were all 'in Adam's loins' to borrow a biblical phrase. We sinned 'in Adam' before we were born, just as Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek in Abraham before Levi was born. Likewise, we are all born as fleshly/carnal creatures because that is what Adam passed on. Recall Jesus said, That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. . The flesh cannot please God, and that is what Adam passed on. We both sinned in Adam, and received (not his sin, but) his fleshly constitution...his nature. The nature, or propensity, of the flesh is to sin, since it cannot please God. I'm not sure how another conclusion could be reached.

blessings,

W

Sounds good, except the propensity part. Did Adam sin without this 'propensity'? The only things that changed for the rest of us after he sinned was our 'relationship' with God and no tree of life. Though one can argue God continued to talk to his children as he did with Adam. This 'propensity' is not a result of a change in nature, as no scripture even hints of any such change, but a change in 'relationship'. God didn't just create Adam righteous and give him character. Those are earned through obedience. It is as wrong to say Adam was created righteousness as it is to say he was created sinful. To say "the flesh cannot please God" is twisting scripture, and is to say Adam could not have pleased God. Is that what you believe? No. Adam was flesh. So was Christ and he pleased the Father as Adam was supposed to.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

What you believe is that those that are after the flesh/carnally minded/in the flesh cannot please God, right?

Adam was created a natural, fleshly man. Given that, it was not in his nature to perfectly obey God. He was created with a choice, because love requires a choice. Love is why God created mankind...because He wanted a family to love and to be loved by them. Adam chose wrongly and doomed the human race to being born as fleshly creatures. We know that the flesh cannot please our Father. Yes, I believe that those who are after the flesh/carnally minded/in the flesh cannot please God.

blessings,

W

[Watchman]

Adam was created innocent of transgression. His choices dictated whether he believed God (aka whether he was righteous), or whether he did not (aka unrighteous).

That's true for us all.

..........
.....

[glad4mercy]

Did Adam have divine grace?

Before he fell? Well Adam did not need saving grace before he fell, because he was not in sin, but he did have grace in the general way, for everything good comes by God's Grace.

There's only one state.

I disagree with this, because I am not in the same state I was before I got saved. Adam was in a state of righteousness before the fall, a state of sin after the fall, and man is delivered from the state of sin through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Before Adam fell he had a spiritual mind, after he fell he had a carnal mind. I had a carnal mind before I was saved, now that I am saved I have a Spiritual mind.

Where's the change in nature?

Well for one we all die now, even infants and the unborn. For another the desires, affections, and thoughts of the heart are selfish and sinful from a very early age. Thirdly, our natural inclination seems to be toward sin and away from righteousness. Do you think that Adam's natural inclination was towards sin, that God made him that way? Of course we know that the potential to sin was there, but was it something he was inclined to because of a sinful heart, or was it a matter that he let his wife entice him to sin, and she let the serpent entice her to sin. After all, natural man in his current state really doesnt even need satan or other people's temptings anymore, man has become very proficient in sinning on his own.

[Noeb]

Adam was created a natural, fleshly man. Given that, it was not in his nature to perfectly obey God. He was created with a choice, because love requires a choice. Love is why God created mankind...because He wanted a family to love and to be loved by them. Adam chose wrongly and doomed the human race to being born as fleshly creatures.

Adam doomed the human race to be born as he was created? I thought God created seed and put life in them to reproduce after their kind. I mean, I agree Adam was supposed to obey as Christ did and be glorified, but 'what about his children' is pure speculation.

[Noeb]

Before he fell? Well Adam did not need saving grace before he fell, because he was not in sin,

Grace is needed when not in sin to keep us from sinning. Did he have divine grace? Now, grace for us is Christ and him crucified for over coming sin.

but he did have grace in the general way, for everything good comes by God's Grace.

So Adam could have believed God concerning the fruit, wanted to obey, and God would have been his way of escape? That's what I believe, because that's how God works from cover to cover in the bible.

I disagree with this, because I am not in the same state I was before I got saved.

Right. Your nature has been changed because of the addition of the Spirit. Where is scripture that says there was a change in Adam's nature?

Adam was in a state of righteousness before the fall,

Scripture?

Before Adam fell he had a spiritual mind,

Scripture?

Well for one we all die now, even infants and the unborn.

The question was,

man before the fall --body+spirit=soul +God
man after the fall ---body+spirit=soul

Where's the change in nature?

Adam was created mortal, needing the tree of life. If he had children they too would have needed the tree of life. It doesn't matter whether or not they were born before or after he sinned. Natural man needs the tree of life. With Adam having the tree of life, none of his children would have died unborn. All is good with the tree of life. It allows you to live for ever. No way would his child have died or even gotten sick, in the womb or out! So I really don't know why it's necessary to say 'we all die now', as if the point has any merit in a change in Adam's nature. He had the tree of life then he didn't. Dead man. We don't have it. Dead men.

For another the desires, affections, and thoughts of the heart are selfish and sinful from a very early age.

True. Adam sinned immediately too, so how does this prove his nature changed and we are any different than he was?

Thirdly, our natural inclination seems to be toward sin and away from righteousness. Do you think that Adam's natural inclination was towards sin, that God made him that way?

I believe God is just and therefore Adam must of had as much of a chance to obey as he did to disobey. I cannot answer otherwise.

Of course we know that the potential to sin was there, but was it something he was inclined to because of a sinful heart, or was it a matter that he let his wife entice him to sin, and she let the serpent entice her to sin. After all, natural man in his current state really doesnt even need satan or other people's temptings anymore, man has become very proficient in sinning on his own.

Adam had the commandment directly from God. We don't. Huge difference. He flat out disobeyed. From the earliest stages we are coddling our flesh and that's all we know and are concerned with. Sold into carnality by Adam's sin, like Paul said.

[glad4mercy]

Grace is needed when not in sin to keep us from sinning. Did he have divine grace? Now, grace for us is Christ and him crucified for over coming sin.

agreed

So Adam could have believed God concerning the fruit, wanted to obey, and God would have been his way of escape? That's what I believe, because that's how God works from cover to cover in the bible.

Agreed, but an unregenerate person after the fall cannot obey God until they are changed. Adam had the power to obey God in His natural state. Since the fall, man is incapable of obeying God until they are born again. The natural man is neither subject to the Law of God, nor can it be. Yet Adam in his original state could have obeyed, just as you said.

Right. Your nature has been changed because of the addition of the Spirit. Where is scripture that says there was a change in Adam's nature?

Adam's nature was changed by the addition of sin and spiritual death.

Genesis 2:17- 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die .

Adam did not die physically the day he ate the fruit, he died spiritually.

True. Adam sinned immediately too, so how does this prove his nature changed and we are any different than he was?

Adam was born with the capacity not to sin. That is not true of anyone else, ( except of course Jesus). The only way we can be free not to sin is to be born from above. By nature, we are not like Adam was before the Fall, with the capacity to sin or not to sin. By nature we are like Adam after the fall, unable to stop sinning until Jesus sets us free. We have to be given a new nature before the bondage of sin can be broken.

Adam was created mortal, needing the tree of life. If he had children they too would have needed the tree of life. It doesn't matter whether or not they were born before or after he sinned. Natural man needs the tree of life. With Adam having the tree of life, none of his children would have died unborn. All is good with the tree of life. It allows you to live for ever. No way would his child have died or even gotten sick, in the womb or out! So I really don't know why it's necessary to say 'we all die now', as if the point has any merit in a change in Adam's nature. He had the tree of life then he didn't. Dead man. We don't have it. Dead men.

OK, but the wages of sin is death, and the unborn who have committed no sin die, so therefore what conclusion can you reach but that their deaths are caused by Adams sin. Now guilt may not be imputed to them for Adam's sin ( this is debatable), but the fact remains that the effects of Adams sin has been passed down to his descendants. ( BTW, I believe that those who die in innocency go to heaven)

I believe God is just and therefore Adam must of had as much of a chance to obey as he did to disobey. I cannot answer otherwise.

I agree, yet this is not true of a natural man after the fall. A natural man is doomed to fall again and again and again, until he is made a new creation.

Adam had the commandment directly from God. We don't. Huge difference. He flat out disobeyed. From the earliest stages we are coddling our flesh and that's all we know and are concerned with. Sold into carnality by Adam's sin, like Paul said.

Yes and another name for our flesh is our fallen nature.

Sold into carnality by Adam's sin, like Paul said.

Yes, it was Adam's sin that separated all of his descendants from God and the tree of Life. Now if you define sin as the absence of righteousness, then sin was inherited, because if we were sold into carnality by Adams sin, it is the same thing as being sold into sin by Adam's sin. Now this does not remove our responsibility, for Christ has undone all of the effects of Adam's fall, and we need only to repent and believe on Him. Yet repentance and conversion cannot occur unless God draws us, such is the extent of our depravity and helplessness.

True. Adam sinned immediately too, so how does this prove his nature changed and we are any different than he was?

If the serpent was not present in the garden, do you think Adam and Eve would have sinned on their own? This is an interesting question.

You asked for scripture to support the assertion that Adam was in a state of righteousness before the fall.

Genesis 1: 6- 31 And God saw every thing that he had made , and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The fact that he had a spiritual mind necessarily follows, for the carnal mind is emnity against God.

[Noeb]

Adam had the power to obey God in His natural state. Since the fall, man is incapable of obeying God until they are born again. The natural man is neither subject to the Law of God, nor can it be. Yet Adam in his original state could have obeyed, just as you said.

Let me see if I understand this.....

Adam was natural and could obey
but
Natural men like Adam are neither subject to the Law of God, nor can it be
????

You are equating natural man with carnal minded. First thing first. It does not say "The natural man is neither subject to the Law of God, nor can it be." What it says is.....
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

"they" in v5 are natural men just like Adam was. It says natural men that have their mind on the fleshly have a fleshly mind, and the fleshly mind is not subject to the law of God, neither can it be.

Adam's nature was changed by the addition of sin and spiritual death.

Genesis 2:17- 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die .

Adam did not die physically the day he ate the fruit, he died spiritually.

Sin is not a thing that it can be added to another thing. The Spirit is a person, an entity, that actually effects our nature, causing a change.

If by spiritual death you mean 'afar off' because of sin, I agree, but that's as far as it can go scripturally. We have no record of Adam's relationship with God after God passed down judgment for his sin, but we do know God talked with Cain as he did Adam. So I'm uncertain what spiritual death would be scripturally. I know what proponents of original sin say it means but find no evidence whatsoever in scripture for their concepts, and find 100's of passage that contradict what they say. I know what the second death is but that's future.

It does indeed say he died the day he ate the fruit, just as you posted above. The Hebrew for "shall surely die" is "dying, die". Some translations say "you are as good as dead" and "you are a dead man". The same Hebrew is used later when King David told a man he was confined to the city and the day he crossed over the river you "shall surely die" --"you are as good as dead" or "you are a dead man". It's a promise of certain death, and the same day, God kicking Adam out of the garden and guarding the tree of life so that he could not live forever, Adam died. This death, because of sin, is the same death spoken of in Romans chapter 5 where it says
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam was born with the capacity not to sin.

But how? We talked of this above. Could he believe the commandment, therefore believe God, and not sin? I say yes. you seem to agree. Now, why doesn't that work for us? I say it's because we don't have the commandment directly from God like Adam did. The above mentioned scripture mentions this.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

That is not true of anyone else, ( except of course Jesus). The only way we can be free not to sin is to be born from above.

But Adam didn't need to be born from above. God was his Father and all he needed to do was believe God/the commandment. When we are born, God is not our Father and we don't have the commandment directly from him like Adam and Jesus had.

By nature, we are not like Adam was before the Fall,
......By nature we are like Adam after the fall

I'd like to see scripture for that because 1Cor 11 and 15 says we are just like Adam before the fall just as Jesus was. The only difference in scripture is relationship.

We have to be given a new nature before the bondage of sin can be broken.

Why? As far as I can tell, it's because sin has separated us from God. The only difference in scripture is relationship.

OK, but the wages of sin is death, and the unborn who have committed no sin die, so therefore what conclusion can you reach but that their deaths are caused by Adams sin.

Right. No tree of life.

I agree, yet this is not true of a natural man after the fall. A natural man is doomed to fall again and again and again, until he is made a new creation.

Because of a lack of relationship.

Yes and another name for our flesh is our fallen nature.

Made up by man. Not found in scripture.

If the serpent was not present in the garden, do you think Adam and Eve would have sinned on their own? This is an interesting question.

Not sure. Jesus didn't. Not eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil is not God's only law. Sooner or later as God gave more commandments Adam may have disobeyed, because if he couldn't do a simple thing like not take a bite of fruit, what was going to happen when all the other real temptations came along?

You asked for scripture to support the assertion that Adam was in a state of righteousness before the fall.

Genesis 1: 6- 31 And God saw every thing that he had made , and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

The fact that he had a spiritual mind necessarily follows, for the carnal mind is emnity against God.

That doesn't mean he was righteous at all. What was the basis for his righteousness? He had not obeyed or believed anything to be counted righteous. Also, Where does it say he had a spiritual mind? He ate the fruit after all. That was a carnally minded thing to do.

[glad4mercy]

Sin is not a thing that it can be added to another thing.

Romans 7:17- Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Noeb, Let's take this one or two steps at a time, we are going in too many different directions at once.

The first two questions that need to be answered are

1."do you believe we have a sinful nature apart from Christ or do you not"?
2. If so, when did we become sinful by nature?

[Noeb]

1."do you believe we have a sinful nature apart from Christ or do you not"?

No sin nature at birth.

[Noeb]

Romans 7:17- Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

I've explained this already remember? Why are we repeating? That's not a physical or spiritual thing added to your nature. Sin here is a noun describing an idea (noun describes a person place thing idea). Paul is describing the idea. The concept of the old man.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

The law he found was.........
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

.......As long as the old man is alive you will obey him and do want you don't want to and not do what you want to. The sin (v17, 20), the evil (v21), is the old man. "Well, that's a noun"......now not so quick. We have long ago established the old man is much more than our flesh and includes desires of the flesh and mind and affections and lusts. He's everything we have become in our carnal existence before coming to Christ. He is a concept or idea, encompassing everything we have become before Christ, not just a physical or spiritual thing.

[glad4mercy]

I've explained this already remember? Why are we repeating? That's not a physical or spiritual thing added to your nature. Sin here is a noun describing an idea (noun describes a person place thing idea). Paul is describing the idea. The concept of the old man.

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

The law he found was.........
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

.......As long as the old man is alive you will obey him and do want you don't want to and not do what you want to. The sin (v17, 20), the evil (v21), is the old man. "Well, that's a noun"......now not so quick. We have long ago established the old man is much more than our flesh and includes desires of the flesh and mind and affections and lusts. He's everything we have become in our carnal existence before coming to Christ. He is a concept or idea, encompassing everything we have become before Christ, not just a physical or spiritual thing.

I do not equate the Law of God with the Law of sin and death. The Law of God is Holy and just. The Law that causes us to sin is the evil desires that are in our heart that cause us to lust for the things that are forbidden by the Law. There are at least three laws spoken of in Romans 7-8. ( There may be more, but I need to look deeper at it, I do know that there are these three...

a. The Law of God. Shows us the bare minimum that God requires.
b. The Law of sin and death. The fact that sinful man is in bondage to sin, and unable to free himself.
c. The Law of the Spirit of Life. The fact that Jesus died and in so doing condemned sin in the flesh, and also indwelt us with the Holy Spirit so that those who walk after the Spirit will not fulfill the Lusts of the Flesh.

If we still differ on this, my friend Noeb, then we can leave it in the hands of God, and trust that if either of us is otherwise minded from the truth of this issue, ( for I believe that we agree on many other things), that God will reveal it to us if we continue to study the Word with open hearts and open minds, and continue to love the truth. May God teach each of us all things and lead us into all knowledge of the truth through the unction of the Holy One that we have received.

Blessings

[Noeb]

I do not equate the Law of God with the Law of sin and death.

Who does? Why did you go here?

The Law that causes us to sin is the evil desires that are in our heart that cause us to lust for the things that are forbidden by the Law.

There is no law of evil desires in our heart that causes us to sin. Where did you get that from?