Old Earth and Original Sin

[Noeb]

Try the last part of post 288. There was a couple of other places too, but that will suffice.

I don't see it. You are reading it into the passages.

Something has to take place in their heart to make them change from a hater to a seeker.

haters don't change to seekers, according to Jesus.

What is the difference between those that have ears to hear and those that do not?

Told you already. Those that don't have ears that can hear have rejected the knowledge of God given them.

Yes, the Gentiles who did not have the Law kept parts of the Law. They knew by nature that it was wrong to murder, or they may have known it was wrong to commit adultery or steal.

How is that possible if they have a sin nature?

Does man come to Christ by nature, or is it something that God draws Him to? This is the critical question.

What did Jesus say? Those that do truth come to the light. So we have 2 scriptures that say man does what is right because of his nature (spirit in man-law written on heart-ears to hear). That God is the reason and that God gets the praise. So, "Does man come to Christ by nature, or is it something that God draws Him to?" Those that do truth come to the light. God draws through truth and through spirit. The spiritual man discerns all things, and hears the Spirit through his spirit. He knows the things of God by the Spirit. So, man comes to Christ by his God given nature (spirit in man-law written on heart-ears to hear), which must be involved in God's method of drawing by Spirit.

In a legal sense this is true. If you have lied, then you are guilty under the Law as a liar until the penalty is paid. It is not enough to stop lying, the lies that you have told in past must be covered. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Do you deny these truths?

See how you started with "you have lied" (singular) and you jumped to "lying and lies"? No. No it is not true. Jesus said he that commits (committ-eth) and continues to commit sin is a slave to sin. If you are accused of a "lie" (singular) and are convicted then you "lied" (singular). You don't have to stop lying because you are not a liar, that lies. You lied once. You again, have it backwards. You have to first become a liar before you can stop being a liar.

[Noeb]

He was not talking to Gentiles in this passage, he was talking to Jews who were already in a covenant relationship with God.

I know. That's the point. Unregenerate. Told to circumcise the heart. Interesting isn't it?
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Because they were in a covenant relationship with God, their hearts should have already been circumcised,

They were being told to do it.
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

As far as God being the one to circumcise our hearts...

Colosians 2:11- In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,

That is the point. They were told to do it in Deu 10. Point being he did not do it in Deu 10. He told them to do it in Deu 10 and said he would in distant future. What you cite here is a fulfillment of when God said he would do it.

Deu 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deu 30:2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

BTW. did I ever ask you what the difference between the good soil and the bad soil is? What is the plow that breaks up the fallow ground?

Yes you did. There is no plow breaking up ground in the parable.

[glad4mercy]

That is the point. They were told to do it in Deu 10. Point being he did not do it in Deu 10. He told them to do it in Deu 10 and said he would in distant future. What you cite here is a fulfillment of when God said he would do it.

Here's why...

Jeremiah 31: The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to[d] them,[e]”
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

Romans 8: 3 [B]For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 10: 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall


Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[c] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[d] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

[Noeb]

What did any of that have to do with the discussion?

[glad4mercy]

Think of the " they were told to do it" and the "He did it" statement. Then think about Romans 10:5-10. You have the same two statements stated differently. I can't possibly make it any simpler than that.

What does Deuteronomy mean?

[Noeb]

In Deu 10 God told them to do it. Romans 2 says Gentiles do it. Proving it can done by nature. That's not a "sin nature". That is a nature from God, which is why he is praised. He created man in his image and behold it is very good.

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
............
.....
Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[glad4mercy]

In Deu 10 God told them to do it. Romans 2 says Gentiles do it.

Where does it say that Gentiles circumcise their hearts by nature? Secondly, Are you saying that unregenerate people keep the righteousness of the Law and are counted before God as circumcised? I thought Paul said that if one could be justified by the Law, then Christ died in vain.

I don't think Paul is teaching that spiritual circumcision is accomplished in Gentiles by means of Law keeping, do you? Think it through.

[Noeb]

Where does it say that Gentiles circumcise their hearts by nature?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Secondly, Are you saying that unregenerate people keep the righteousness of the Law and are counted before God as circumcised?

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

I thought Paul said that if one could be justified by the Law, then Christ died in vain.

Yup

I don't think Paul is teaching that spiritual circumcision is accomplished in Gentiles by means of Law keeping, do you?

You again have it backwards. The law keeping is done because of circumcision. Not the other way around. Secondly, this is precisely what God told Israel to do.

[glad4mercy]

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Do the Gentiles by nature keep the whole Law, or only parts of it, Noeb?

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Is there any unregenerate (natural) person that keeps the righteousness of the Law, Noeb? Men uncircumcised in flesh can fulfill the righteousness of the Law by faith, yes. Yet it does not say here that they keep the righteousness of the Law by nature, does it, It just says they keep it being uncircumcised. You jumped down 12 verses and added the "by nature from verse 14 to verse 26. It is not so in the text.

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Is there any unregenerate person that has a circumcised heart, Noeb?

thought Paul said that if one could be justified by the Law, then Christ died in vain.
Yup

Would Christ have had to die for these unregenerate Gentiles who were already by nature circumcised in heart, were already doing by nature the things contained in the Law, and who were keeping the righteousness of the Law already by nature? Did Christ have to die for these as well? If so, why?

Here's the thing. To me, circumcision of heart implies being justified and righteous before God. Yet by the Law no flesh will be justified, for by the Law is the knowledge of sin. Paul is not saying that Gentiles are circumcised in heart because they fulfill the Law, he is saying that if they did fulfill the Law they would be counted as circumcised. Yet no one fulfills the Law by nature, for if we keep the whole Law, yet offend in one point we are guilty of all. James 2:10. If we are guilty of breaking the Law, how can it be said that we have fulfilled the Law

Uncircumcised Gentiles can be counted as circumcised by faith in Christ alone.

You again have it backwards. The law keeping is done because of circumcision. Not the other way around.

Yes, but Paul said that their uncircumcision was counted as circumcision if they kept the Law...Those two letters are very weighty.

Secondly, this is precisely what God told Israel to do.

Yes, and what He commanded them to do He would also enable them to do. They tried to keep the commandments by nature, and look at how they failed. The commands can only be kept by a heart that has been transformed and empowered by Grace. When man tries in his own strength, by the arm of the flesh to please God, he fails and fails. The carnal mind is emnity remember? Not by power, nor by might, but by my Spirit has always been the means of Grace.

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

In this statement, which is true?

A. The keeping of the Law the result of the circumcision of the heart.
B. Their uncircumcision is counted as circumcision because they keep the righteousness of the Law?

The text is saying that the uncircumcision of their flesh is counted as circumcision before God because they keep the Law.The way you are interpreting it is that an uncircumcised heart is counted as circumcised by keeping the Law, rather than saying that a heart must be circumcised in order to fulfill the righteousness of the Law. See the difference?

If an uncircumcised man fulfill the entire Law, then his uncircumcision is counted as circumcision. Otherwise, he needs Grace, repentance, and faith in order to be counted as righteous. No man fulfills every commandment and requirement of the Law by nature, and James 2:10 says if we keep the whole Law, yet offend in one point, we are guilty of all.

James 2:10- For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Secondly, this is precisely what God told Israel to do.

He also told them to obey and keep every word of the Law, yet we see clearly in the scriptures that this is impossible for unregenerate, unspiritual, uncircumcised hearts to do. The righteousness of the Law can only be fulfilled when we walk in the Spirit rather than the flesh. Does man walk in the Spirit by nature?

Romans 8: 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

How can a man fulfill the righteousness of the Law by nature. This passage clearly shows that it can only be done through the Holy Spirit. Does man have the Holy Spirit by nature.

Is there some who are sinners by nature, and others who are upright by nature. No, the scriptures clearly state that all are under sin!

Romans 3: 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3: 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Man is not justified by anything accomplished by the arm of the flesh, (nature), he is justified by faith alone.

Romans 4: 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

[glad4mercy]

Ok Noeb. I am finished editing post 384.

[glad4mercy]

I don't see it. You are reading it into the passages.

So what do the passages mean then?.

haters don't change to seekers,

Paul of Tarsus might disagree with you.

according to Jesus.

chapter and verse?

What is the difference between those that have ears to hear and those that do not?
Told you already. Those that don't have ears that can hear have rejected the knowledge of God given them.

So which came first, the rejection or the fact that they didnt have ears? Did the rejection cause the deafness or did the deafness cause the rejection or both?

Yes, the Gentiles who did not have the Law kept parts of the Law. They knew by nature that it was wrong to murder, or they may have known it was wrong to commit adultery or steal.

How is that possible if they have a sin nature?

Prevenient Grace. Google it...

What did Jesus say? Those that do truth come to the light. So we have 2 scriptures that say man does what is right because of his nature (spirit in man-law written on heart-ears to hear). That God is the reason and that God gets the praise. So, "Does man come to Christ by nature, or is it something that God draws Him to?" Those that do truth come to the light. God draws through truth and through spirit. The spiritual man discerns all things, and hears the Spirit through his spirit. He knows the things of God by the Spirit. So, man comes to Christ by his God given nature (spirit in man-law written on heart-ears to hear), which must be involved in God's method of drawing by Spirit.

So it is true that the Spirit must draw one in order for them to come

See how you started with "you have lied" (singular) and you jumped to "lying and lies"? No. No it is not true. Jesus said he that commits (committ-eth) and continues to commit sin is a slave to sin. If you are accused of a "lie" (singular) and are convicted then you "lied" (singular). You don't have to stop lying because you are not a liar, that lies. You lied once. You again, have it backwards. You have to first become a liar before you can stop being a liar.

If you lied one time, and did not receive forgiveness through Christ your sin remaineth even if you never do it again. If I went to a judge and said, "I'm not a bankrobber, I only did it once." what will the judge say.

[glad4mercy]

The spiritual man discerns all things, and hears the Spirit through his spirit. He knows the things of God by the Spirit.

Yes!!! ...and the spiritual man is the regenerate man, the man who has been born from above. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Now if the carnal, unspiritual man cannot hear the Spirit, how can he be saved and become spiritual?

He knows the things of God by the Spirit.

Only the regenerate have the Spirit in them.

So, man comes to Christ by his God given nature

...and by the drawing of the Father, and through the preaching of the Gospel, and by the power of the Spirit that is behind the preaching of the Gospel, and by the goodness of God that leads to repentance, and by the call that says "Come", and by the pricking of the heart that produces Godly sorrow, and by the Word of God which is quick and sharper than any two edged sword piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit.

and by the acts whereby God reveals Himself, and reaches out to us, and stretches out His arms to us, and sent His Son to die for us and rise again, and sent the Spirit to convict the world of righteousness, of sin, and of Judgement, and the longsuffering of God who is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance, and by the shepherd who leaves the ninety and nine to search for the lost sheep, and when He finds it, He lays it across His shoulders, and carries it home rejoicing, and because the Father sits ever waiting and longing for the prodigal child to come home, and because sometimes he hedges our way with thorns and makes a wall so that we cannot find our paths, and so that we cannot overtake our lovers no matter how hard we seek them. And because of the goads that we find it hard to kick against.

And because of the ones God sent to bring us the Good News of salvation, and because the Spirit and the bride say come. And because the Father has made all things ready, the banquet table is spread, the feast is prepared, and the invitations have been sent.

Without Grace, we would never come to God, so no, man's nature. goodness, and natural ability leaves us far short of the Glory of God, comparable to trying to ride to heaven on a bicycle. God is the one that has to build the bridge to us. It is Grace that draws, Grace that teaches the heart to fear, Grace that brings us to repentance, Grace that enables us to believe, Grace that relieves our fears, Grace that justifies, Grace that sancifies, Grace that perfects, Grace that keeps, and Grace that glorifies.

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me...

[Noeb]

Do the Gentiles by nature keep the whole Law, or only parts of it, Noeb?

Not the issue. This is about "Original Sin", "Total Depravity/Inability", "Sin Nature", not how, why, and when we are saved. Sorry you spent so much time on a non-issue.
It says when by nature Gentiles/uncircumcision do things in the law, they show the work of the law that is written on their hearts.
How silly it would be if these bad translations that change flesh (sarx) to sin nature said,
by the sin nature Gentiles/uncircumcision do things in the law, showing the work of the law that is written on their hearts.
It would utterly destroy the Spirit's argument in the passage. It does not say if and would show in v14-15, it says when and which show.
All men can and do, by nature, righteousness for right reasons. The excuse that man can but it's for selfish reasons is not found in scripture. That's just spiritual garble to excuse bad theology. Men are called righteous by God throughout scripture. They were so by faith.

[glad4mercy]

Not the issue. This is about "Original Sin", "Total Depravity/Inability", "Sin Nature",

Yes, and there is nothing man can do to redeem Himself, which is why Christ came to die for us. While we were without strength, Christ died for us. Sounds like total inability on our part to me. Additionally, Jesus said that no man can ( no man is able) to come to Him unless the Father draws him. Total inabiity again. Just as I am without one plea, but that thy blood was shed for me and that thou biddest me come to thee, O Lamb of God I come, I come.

Total Depravity-If you listen to even Calvinists like RC Sproul, you will find that total depravity does not mean that man is as evil as he can be, it just means that man is sinful to the core, that even to the depths of one's heart of hearts one is sinful until redeemed. RC calls it "radical depravity". I disagree with much of what he says, but I like the use of the word "radical" I never said that I believed in Calvinisms version of Total depravity, but I do believe that man is unregenerate man depraved, and by depraved I mean deviating from the righteousness of God. It doesnt matter if you break only one law or if you break all of them. If you keep the Law yet offend in one point, ( ie deviate even in one matter), you are guilty of breaking the Law, and if you are bound by one sin, then you are a slave to sin, period. You don't have to be bound by every sin to be a sinner. Just as you don't need to be filled with multiple demons to be possessed. One does the trick.

Every unsaved person is a slave to some form of sin, so all unsaved people are slaves to sin, all have deviated from righteousness, all are depraved and need to be changed from the inside out. The heart is decietful above all things, desperately wicked. If this is not depravity what is. Create in me a clean heart, O god.

I never adhered to depravity in the sense that one had to be regenerated before they can repent and believe. Just that man is depraved in the sense that they God has to take the initiative in saving us, for we were without strength, blind, captive, and bruised.

John 6:44- No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Romans 5: 6- For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Luke 4:18- he Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted , to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised ,

It says when by nature Gentiles/uncircumcision do things in the law, showing the work of the law that is written on their hearts.
How silly it would be if these bad translations that change flesh (sarx) to sin nature said,
by the sin nature Gentiles/uncircumcision do things in the law, showing the work of the law that is written on their hearts.

The text does not say by the flesh, it says by nature. The Greek word is Physis, not sarx.

[Noeb]

So what do the passages mean then?.

Demonstration of power is just that. We've been through this, the closest thing to what you are talking about is in Corinthians where all prophesy, a persons sin is exposed, and they confess that God is in the believers. There is no scripture that speaks of a inner tweaking and twisting of the Spirit in a sinner. It's not necessary. They have a spirit for communication and if the do truth they will come to the light when they hear the truth. In John 16 it is the believer the Spirit comes to not the world. This is for power and for the work of the ministry. Jesus already said the Spirit was with them, but needed to be in them. The Spirit has always been here. It's absurd to think John 16 is talking about some inner tweaking of a sinner by the Spirit. That had never been necessary before and still isn't. Man in God's image communicates with the Spirit just fine. Always has.

Paul of Tarsus might disagree with you.

chapter and verse?

been through this and we disagree
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So which came first, the rejection or the fact that they didnt have ears? Did the rejection cause the deafness or did the deafness cause the rejection or both?

Clearly rejection came first, deafness naturally followed. 'They have closed their ears..........'

Prevenient Grace. Google it...

Don't need to Google it. So then what's the point? and how does this all work? If man is Totally Depraved, and he needs God's twisting and tweaking to even do anything good or righteous, but yet he does it for selfish reasons, so it doesn't count for good and righteousness.......CONTRADICTION!!!!! Glad4mercy, read it. It says "by nature", not by preceding grace. Preceding grace is false, because God stops at some and give more to others that they may be saved. It's Augustinian, God is sovereign garble. Furthermore, it relies on Total Depravity, which we have shown to be false.

So it is true that the Spirit must draw one in order for them to come

This is done throughout life, and has nothing to do with a sin nature and everything to do with the nature God gave man. Because of this, some say God gave man a sin nature. I disagree.

If you lied one time, and did not receive forgiveness through Christ your sin remaineth even if you never do it again. If I went to a judge and said, "I'm not a bankrobber, I only did it once." what will the judge say.

We are not talking about receiving forgiveness through Christ and sin remaining. If you robbed one bank a just judge would not call you a bank robber. If you do drugs once, you are not a drug user. If you use drugs, you are a drug user.