Old Earth and Original Sin

[glad4mercy]

Grace seems to take on a whole different meaning in the OT then. For example.

Genesis 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

If we read on, we see why.

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

It looks like to me then, that Noah had to at least do something deserving of this grace, otherwise, why didn't God just pick anybody out of the hat to bestow this grace upon? It looks to me that He bestowed it upon someone at least deserving of it, the fact that Noah walked with God.


Getting back to Noah for a moment, and if you are correct, keeping in mind that God first bestows grace upon Noah, did that mean Noah didn't have to do anything after that? Didn't he have to build an ark? What would have happened if he decided not to finish it because he got discouraged, or let life's problems get him down, etc? Would God then have put a rain check on this upcoming flood, since Noah didn't finish the ark? So if the ark wasn't finished because of Noah's refusal to cooperate until the end, do you think God would have saved him anyway, the fact that He already bestowed His grace upon him? Doesn't the story of Noah illustrate that faith without works is dead? Noah had faith that God would save him. But he had to produce works first, in this case, the building of the ark. But if he had not first done the works, the building of the ark, he would have likely died with the rest when the floods came. And if you think about it, this sort of lines up with the concept found in Matt 25, in relation to the goats, when their fate is the LOF because they did not do the following...Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

Hebrews 11 tells you what made men righteous in the Old Testament. Faith is not meritorious, though it does please God. Abel, Methusaleh, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, etc were righteous before God by the same thing that John, Paul, Luke, Peter, and every other Christian, by Grace through faith, not of works lest any man should boast, it is the Gift of God. ( See Ephesians 2) See also below...

Romans 4: 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

So yes, believing is something that we must do, but it does not merit, earn, or purchase salvation as some meritorious work. Faith merely accepts Grace, justifying, sanctifying, enabling, quickening grace that teaches us that we should deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and live soberly, righteously, and Godly in this present world.

[glad4mercy]

Getting back to Noah for a moment, and if you are correct, keeping in mind that God first bestows grace upon Noah, did that mean Noah didn't have to do anything after that

The entire Bible teaches again and again that the only proper response to Grace is faith, love, and obedience. Your question assume seems to assume that I am a proponent of easy believism, which I am not.

What would have happened if he decided not to finish it because he got discouraged, or let life's problems get him down, etc?

He would have drowned. Yet if Noah had been interviewed after he built the ark and was saved by the flood, he would not say that his building of the ark merited his salvation, he would not say, " God gave me what He owed me. God owed my salvation because I built an ark", he would have talked about how thankful he was that God chose to spare him, warn him, give him time and the ability to build an ark and sustained him through the flood. When we think of salvation in terms of our obedience, we might come to the wrong conclusion that we merited or deserved our salvation in some way. Yet if it was based on what we did, it would be a matter of debt not of Grace.

Would God then have put a rain check on this upcoming flood, since Noah didn't finish the ark? So if the ark wasn't finished because of Noah's refusal to cooperate until the end, do you think God would have saved him anyway, the fact that He already bestowed His grace upon him? Doesn't the story of Noah illustrate that faith without works is dead? Noah had faith that God would save him. But he had to produce works first, in this case, the building of the ark. But if he had not first done the works, the building of the ark, he would have likely died with the rest when the floods came. And if you think about it, this sort of lines up with the concept found in Matt 25, in relation to the goats, when their fate is the LOF because they did not do the following...Matthew 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

All of this is a straw man argument. I have never said, ( on this thread or any other thread), the things you are implying . I have always clearly stated that Grace comes first, then faith which works by love, producing obedience. You must not have read my previous posts, not read them carefully, or you must completely misunderstand what is stated in them. The concepts of salvation by Grace through faith and Christian responsibility are not contradictory at all, but are rather complimentary. The Bible makes this clear.

For example, Paul in Romans 3-4 did not disagree with James in James 2. They were in agreement, but were fighting against different enemies. Paul was combatting legalism and self-righteousness and James was combatting easy believism. When I talk about salvation by Grace, and righteousness by faith, I am doing so in order to try to provide balance for those who place undue emphasis on human merit. When I quote verses on human responsibility I do so in an attempt to provide balance for those who teach easy believism. I try not to convince a person of what they already believe.

When you talk to me about the need for faith to be accompanied by works of love and obedience, you are preaching to someone who has already been convinced of these truths a long time ago. Read my posts. My statements have nothing to do with what we do after come to faith and righteousness, they all are dealing with how a sinner is made righteous before God. .

[divaD]

The entire Bible teaches again and again that the only proper response to Grace is faith, love, and obedience. Your question assumes that I am a proponent of easy believism, which I am not. All of this is clear evidence that you havent read very many of my posts.



He would have drowned. Yet if Noah had been interviewed after he built the ark and was saved by the flood, he would not say that his building of the ark merited his salvation, he would not say, " God gave me what He owed me. God owed my salvation because I built an ark", he would have talked about how thankful he was that God chose to spare him, warn him, give him time and the ability to build an ark and sustained him through the flood. When we think of salvation in terms of our obedience, we might come to the wrong conclusion that we merited or deserved our salvation in some way. Yet if it was based on what we did, it would be a matter of debt not of Grace.



All of this is a straw man argument. I have never said, ( on this thread or any other thread), any of the things you are wrongly implying . I have always clearly stated that Grace comes first, then faith which works by love, producing obedience. You must not have read my previous posts, not read them carefully, or you must completely misunderstand what is stated in them. Paul in Romans 3-4 did not disagree with James in James 2. They were in agreement, but were fighting against different enemies. Paul was combatting legalism and James was combatting easy believism. When I quote verses about Grace, I am quoting them to attempt to provide balance for those who place undue emphasis on human obedience. When I quote verses on human responsibility I do so in an attempt to provide balance for those who teach easy believism. I do not quote scriptures in order to prop up a straw man, just so I can beat it down.

Why are you being so defensive? I'm not attacking you or anything you said. I was only making an observation as to how grace seemed to be defined in the OT, at least according to how I see it. What about Matt 25, and the fact that the goats go to the LOF, not because of what they had done, but because of what they failed to do?

[glad4mercy]

Why are you being so defensive? I'm not attacking you or anything you said. I was only making an observation as to how grace seemed to be defined in the OT, at least according to how I see it. What about Matt 25, and the fact that the goats go to the LOF, not because of what they had done, but because of what they failed to do?

I'm sorry for coming off as defensive. I noticed that my response seemed that way unintentionally and I edited it. I am not attacking you either, nor am I trying to be defensive. I just think that you misunderstood my position. The questions you asked were the types of questions you would ask an antinomian or easy believism person. I apologize for the tone of my original response, I am just thoroughly opposed to antinomianism and do not want the sound teachings of Grace to be confused with it.

The people in the OT were justified by faith, just like the writer of Hebrews said in Hebrews 11. Their faith produced works of righteousness, but their works did not save them, because salvation by works or human merit would require perfection. They were saved by faith just as we are, and God remitted their sins based on the sacrifice of Christ, ( which in their day was yet future) just as God remits our sins by the sacrifice of Christ, ( that for us happened long ago. )

Why are you being so defensive? I'm not attacking you or anything you said. I was only making an observation as to how grace seemed to be defined in the OT,

People were saved by Grace through faith in the OT as well as the NT.



Blessings.

[glad4mercy]

What about Matt 25, and the fact that the goats go to the LOF, not because of what they had done, but because of what they failed to do?

Yes, it is revealed that they are not Christ's sheep. A person who does not love their neighbor at least as much as they love themselves, ( standing by and showing no compassion while someone is suffering and perishing) has no claim to being a Christian. These are false Christians, tares, fruitless branches, not abiding in Christ. trees without fruit, clouds without water, false professors, honoring God with their lips, but their heart is far from them, professors but not possessors.

[glad4mercy]

Did Adam have this same thing, ( husband/old man) present in him before he sinned? no.
Yes (not a thing) he had flesh/temptation/desires/drives/emotions. So did Christ.

I did not say did Adam have temptation, desires, drives, and emotions, I said did he have an "old man" present in Him. You not only confused the definition of old man, but in so doing you stated that Christ had an old man present in Him as well. What on earth do you mean by this? In what way did Christ have what Paul calls the old man in Him? Do you realize what you are saying? To say that Christ had an old man present in Him is crazy. This shows that either your definition of what the "old man" means is incorrect, or that your arguments are not logically consistent.

[glad4mercy]

Oh BTW, here's your
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

that is being compare to
Psa 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
Psa 58:11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

Who prays
Psa 58:6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

and is not praying that for all. It's a comparison/contrast and cannot be used for "original sin/sin nature".

Who are the righteous, Noeb? I thought we established and agreed that righteousness comes by faith. Sinners are wicked until they repent and have faith in God. Then their faith is counted to them as righteousness. The wicked are those who refuse to believe, those who will not repent, those who resist the Grace of God. He that believes is not condemned. He who does not believe is condemned already.

[Noeb]

and regenerate still do not produce true, complete and entire righteousness.

1 John 1:7-2:2 is all I have to say

If that does anything it agrees with me. It certainly does not address regenerate producing true, complete and entire righteousness.

[glad4mercy]

If that does anything it agrees with me. It certainly does not address regenerate producing true, complete and entire righteousness.

True righteousness is when you love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind, and you love your neighbor as yourself

Entire and complete righteousness is unattainable apart from the grace of God from beginning to end. We need
a. Justification, putting us in right standing with God.

b. Regeneration- a rebirth resulting in a restored relationship with God, and the seed of Holiness planted within us, c.

c. sanctification, in which we are cleansed, set apart, and made holy in conduct.

In practice, we may not yet be infallible or perfected, but in standing we are completely and totally righteous before God by faith ( Justification), our hearts have been purified through faith, ( sanctification), and the blood of Jesus Christ keeps us in right standing, and keeps our hearts clean (1 John 1:9)as we abide in Christ through faith and obedient love. (John 15: 3-4)

This is the Biblical view of righteousness.

[glad4mercy]

I did not say did Adam have temptation, desires, drives, and emotions, I said did he have an "old man" present in Him. You not only confused the definition of old man, but in so doing you stated that Christ had an old man present in Him as well. What on earth do you mean by this? In what way did Christ have what Paul calls the old man in Him? Do you realize what you are saying? To say that Christ had an old man present in Him is crazy. This shows that either your definition of what the "old man" means is incorrect, or that your arguments are not logically consistent.

I apologize for some of the wording I used in this post. I should not have said the word "crazy". I should have used the word "incorrect". The wording I chose does not mirror the respect I have for you, and I typed this thoughtlessly. Needless to say, I do strongly disagree with your linking the concept of "old man" with Christ. You may have done so inadvertantly, and I suspect you did. I think it is obvious that the "old man" is not merely defined by emotions, desires, and drives, but is defined as sinful emotions, desires, and drives, which I contend had no place in Christ.

Christ was tempted in every point the same that we are, yet without sin because sin had no place in Him. There was and is no "old man" in Christ. There was not even a trace or a shadow of unrighteousness in Him. The old man in us is the unrighteous person we were before Christ. The new man in us is created to be like God in righteousness and true holiness. ( Ephesians 4:24)

[glad4mercy]

Except now you have to figure out what you are going to do with those God called perfect, upright, and righteous.

Perfect, upright, and righteous by faith and the fact that God counted their faith as righteousness, ( Romans 4). It was their faith that made them perfect, upright, and righteous before God.

Romans 4: 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

"by it ( faith), the elders obtained a good report..." Hebrews 11:2

You and I have already agreed that righteousness is by faith. Now this does not mean that practical holiness is not necessary, but practical holiness ( Holiness in life, walk, action, thought, etc) does not exist apart from positional righteousness, ( righteousness due to the faith that puts us into Christ. ) Our righteousness is imputed and imparted to us by Christ. We have none of our own to boast about.